Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[RWVBWL]

What about Hekuran?

Great ideas Grinder!
I'd like to believe that this has been done before,
but then again, I've never read of it so:
Get Hekuran Kokomani's fingerprints and compare them to the 13 unattibuted fingerprints found at the gals flat that FS mentioned.
<snip>
Surely Kokomani,
bein' Albanian, IIRC, had his fingerprints taken and already on file and they were compared to those 13 unattributed fingerprints, right?

Greetings,
Since no one has been able to answer my question in my above post about those unattributted fingerprints found in Meredith's flat and whether Hekuran Kokomani's fingerprints were ever taken and then compared to those found, well I decided to do a little digging.

Reading thru the Old PS,
there's info about Kokomani from postings on Jan/25/2008, June/23/2008, Aug/25/2008, Sept /26/2008, and April/2/2009.

Here's a link to Sept. 2008:
http://web.archive.org/web/20101015182607/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008_09_01_archive.html

Click the monthly dates on the right if ya want the other stories.


I've learned that Hekuran worked with Rudy Guede at a restaurant.
He was desposed twice in 2008. and I learned more from FS's reporting.
Here's a few quotes regarding Kokomani:

Talking seriously let's see Kokomani's testimony, which is important. It was valid for his counselor, Antonio Aiello. But other parties think slightly different about that. Both Biscotti & Gentile and Miss Julia think to have dismissed his testimony which was inconsistent, contradictory or confused. For Bongiorno it turned into a boomerang that undermines the whole accusation.
I asked Aiello about the phone printouts. He said that Kokomani may have lent his cellphone to some friends.
Actually Aiello doesn't know, he wasn't there, but Kokomani's testimony received a new confirmation today just from printouts. It's true that he was in Assisi at 6.30 pm of 31rst. But printouts place him in the cell of via della Pergola at 11 pm of 31st and at 8 pm of November 1rst.

So: in November 1rst he has two elements which may work as confirmations: his cellphone was around there at 8 o'clock and he remembers to have seen the tow track, which was really there at 11.20 pm.

But his testimony has also been verified in at least one respect. He said that there was a broken down car in front of the cottage. And the presence of a broken down car is not only corroborated by the other witness from the same evening, Alessandra Formica, but in the video you can almost see a stopped car and you can see a tow truck arriving after 11 pm. The tow truck and the broken car, and their owners, have been identified. They exist and were there. So, according to this verification, Kokomani was really there. And the prosecutors don't think that he may have heard this detail in some way or he may have guessed it by how he was asked.

CROSSED STORIES
The real part
But attention, because at about 23:00 of the 1st a mechanic said to have picked up a broken car outside the garage. So, we finally see a little confirmation to a testimony. Let's see the value of it.

The mechanic only knows that he needed 10-12 minutes to pick up the car, that the people were two pairs from Rome, with no kids, and who were staying in Perugia for the long weekend while their car was being fixed. Nobody was going to Cesena . Assuming that he didn't notice there was also a boy certainly nobody else sat on his truck, he only drove it. And you would remember a guy of his size and dressed as a mechanic.

Then he sees a dark car stopped outside the cottage gate. The gate is semi open (as always) and the car is parked with the front towards the cottage.
And he doesn't see, or hear, anyone else. Not Kokomani, nor the quartet, not screams, no knives, no spaces in teeth (strange because it was just 23:00, when the neighbor girl --as she remembered after one year-- heard the scream, went to the window to look down and there was no one, no one running, no lights, no noises).

That car outside the gate could be Kokomani's old dark car and he could have stopped there for some reasons, like going to meet someone at the basketball court. He could have met some of the junkies who hang out around there. A girl with spaced teeth and someone else, maybe.

Or the car outside the gate could be someone passing by who just stopped there or parked there for a while. Or it could be the murderer who went to the cottage with the car and parked right outside the gate. If the mechanic had seen a black Audi A3 we would finally have almost a real element of suspicion for Raffaele. But if you go pick up the body you enter the garden, where nobody could see you doing the risky transportation, and certainly you wouldn't park with the front towards the cottage. Actually, in an interview the mechanic added it was a dark old car, with old plate, just like the one of Kokomani. But in the court he didn't repeat this detail for some reasons, nor he stated it to the police.

Hekuran's phone was in the area at 8:00pm on the night Meredith Kercher was murdered.

Hekuran was in the area when the tow truck driver was there hours later.

A coupla questions come to my mind:
What did Hekuran do in those 3 hours?
If that was Hekuran's car, where was Hekuran?
And were Hekurans fingerprints ever matched against any of those 13 unattributed fingerprints found in Miss Kercher flat after she was murdered?

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>But these lawyers are afraid to support Knox testimony that she was struck during her interrogation...I recall the Perugia slug telling the news something to the effect that she didnt really mean that...WTH? Her story would be an illogical lie. Why go into details that she understood why they might hit her? She is difficult to work with and the cops are under a great deal of pressure? Who says that? Certainly not someone who wishes to lie and claim fake abuse.<snip>

I have always been a bit puzzled by the issue of the whacks to the head. Why were the Perugians so defensive about it that they felt they had to sue Amanda for ratting them out? I don't call two cuffs to the back of the head "torture" -- does anybody? It's not very nice, but it is certainly something that could have been explained away -- even Amanda acknowledged that when she said she realized the cops were under a lot of pressure.

I wonder if whacking a suspect is even against Italian law, and if it is, what the penalties are for conviction. (As if any cops would ever be found guilty of it. )

 

[MichaelB]

Greetings,
Since no one has been able to answer my question in my above post about those unattributted fingerprints found in Meredith's flat and whether Hekuran Kokomani's fingerprints were ever taken and then compared to those found, well I decided to do a little digging.

Reading thru the Old PS,
there's info about Kokomani from postings on Jan/25/2008, June/23/2008, Aug/25/2008, Sept /26/2008, and April/2/2009.

Here's a link to Sept. 2008:

Click the monthly dates on the right if ya want the other stories.

I've learned that Hekuran worked with Rudy Guede at a restaurant.
He was desposed twice in 2008. and I learned more from FS's reporting.
Here's a few quotes regarding Kokomani:

Hekuran's phone was in the area at 8:00pm on the night Meredith Kercher was murdered.

Hekuran was in the area when the tow truck driver was there hours later.

A coupla questions come to my mind:
What did Hekuran do in those 3 hours?
If that was Hekuran's car, where was Hekuran?
And were Hekurans fingerprints ever matched against any of those 13 unattributed fingerprints found in Miss Kercher flat after she was murdered?

The car parked at the gates at 11pm belonged to a friend of the person with the broken down car. So she's pulled over and waited with her friend as they waited for the tow truck. The tow truck driver didn't make the connection though. It's all in Raffaele's appeal document including the names of the people in both cars.

Kokomanics cell pinging there at 8pm lines up nicely with the video Bill posted showing a parked car outside the gates at 8pm. In the video it said the car was parked lights out for 20 mins before driving off.

 

[Bill Williams]

I have always been a bit puzzled by the issue of the whacks to the head. Why were the Perugians so defensive about it that they felt they had to sue Amanda for ratting them out? I don't call two cuffs to the back of the head "torture" -- does anybody? It's not very nice, but it is certainly something that could have been explained away -- even Amanda acknowledged that when she said she realized the cops were under a lot of pressure.

I wonder if whacking a suspect is even against Italian law, and if it is, what the penalties are for conviction. (As if any cops would ever be found guilty of it. )

By Italian standards, and esp. by the standards that Italians cops are used to when interrogating Mafia enforcers, I have always been puzzled, too, about the cops' complaint about Knox's allegation.

Raffaele was only threatened with being beaten to a pulp. Raffaele has never said he was touched, though.

The thing about their stories of how they were treated at interrogation, is that they ring true. I was preparing for their books, to read about how they'd been really beaten or something like that.

But, both of them, perhaps annoyingly so, simply tell the same story.

But it does beg a question as you say. Why do the cops complain about THIS story? Do they want us to believe that the students were brought cookies and chamomile tea, so much so they broke under all that good treatment?

 

[Antony]

By Italian standards, and esp. by the standards that Italians cops are used to when interrogating Mafia enforcers, I have always been puzzled, too, about the cops' complaint about Knox's allegation.

Raffaele was only threatened with being beaten to a pulp. Raffaele has never said he was touched, though.

The thing about their stories of how they were treated at interrogation, is that they ring true. I was preparing for their books, to read about how they'd been really beaten or something like that.

But, both of them, perhaps annoyingly so, simply tell the same story.

But it does beg a question as you say. Why do the cops complain about THIS story? Do they want us to believe that the students were brought cookies and chamomile tea, so much so they broke under all that good treatment?

What's puzzling about it? It's intimidation, pure and simple.

 

[Bill Williams]

By Italian standards, and esp. by the standards that Italians cops are used to when interrogating Mafia enforcers, I have always been puzzled, too, about the cops' complaint about Knox's allegation.

Raffaele was only threatened with being beaten to a pulp. Raffaele has never said he was touched, though.

The thing about their stories of how they were treated at interrogation, is that they ring true. I was preparing for their books, to read about how they'd been really beaten or something like that.

But, both of them, perhaps annoyingly so, simply tell the same story.

But it does beg a question as you say. Why do the cops complain about THIS story? Do they want us to believe that the students were brought cookies and chamomile tea, so much so they broke under all that good treatment?

What's puzzling about it? It's intimidation, pure and simple.

What is puzzling about it is that even you calling it "intimidation" would been seen as defamation by Ficarra, Napoleoni, Donnino, etc. Reread Mary_H's post.

I mean, it's not as if these people go around slashing tires on cars of folk they're in dispute with.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

What is puzzling about it is that even you calling it "intimidation" would been seen as defamation by Ficarra, Napoleoni, Donnino, etc. Reread Mary_H's post.

I mean, it's not as if these people go around slashing tires on cars of folk they're in dispute with.

Could someone remind me why the alleged cuffing or hitting wasn’t part of Amanda’s defence team strategy, as I recall the accusation was made by Amanda whilst testifying in the 1st level trial, I have always found it puzzling? It could have been like this

 

[Grinder]

Could someone remind me why the alleged cuffing or hitting wasn’t part of Amanda’s defence team strategy, as I recall the accusation was made by Amanda whilst testifying in the 1st level trial, I have always found it puzzling? It could have been like this

Obviously not like the VIDEO RECORDED event here. If we only had the recording of the three questioned suspects.

It is clear from the prosecution of Amanda's parents for repeating what she told them and as you pointed out was volunteered by her in court that the lawyers feared being prosecuted unless they could prove it. They couldn't prove it because there was no recording.

ETA - The video demonstrates what a first world coutry is capable of doing to insure the safety of people in custody. The girls wasn't even being questioned but there was video.

Off-hand I can't remember exactly what she said in her notes but I believe she mentioned the treatment in one of them. I wondered if that startled the PLE as residents probably know that one doesn't do that. What happens in the questura stays in the questura unless the PLE decide to leak or make something up.

 

[Antony]

What is puzzling about it is that even you calling it "intimidation" would been seen as defamation by Ficarra, Napoleoni, Donnino, etc. Reread Mary_H's post.

I mean, it's not as if these people go around slashing tires on cars of folk they're in dispute with.

I really don't see why any of it is puzzling, or what point you and Mary are making - unless you're being deliberately ironic.

The defamation charges are used as a way of crushing the truth about the interrogation, in order to maintain the pretence that she was treated fairly and that the statements were voluntary. They aren't in any way intended to "protect" the cops' reputations, because of course the cops would never face any charges merely for smacking a girl around while extracting a statement from her.

And of course they succeeded, because not only did Amanda tone down the claims, but even then she was hung out to dry by her own defence team.

Could someone remind me why the alleged cuffing or hitting wasn’t part of Amanda’s defence team strategy,

See above. They were scared of having charges brought against them - it's that simple.

as I recall the accusation was made by Amanda whilst testifying in the 1st level trial, I have always found it puzzling? It could have been like this

Big difference here is that the Perugia cops knew that no video of the interrogation would ever see the light of day.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Obviously not like the VIDEO RECORDED event here. If we only had the recording of the three questioned suspects.

It is clear from the prosecution of Amanda's parents for repeating what she told them and as you pointed out was volunteered by her in court that the lawyers feared being prosecuted unless they could prove it. They couldn't prove it because there was no recording.

ETA - The video demonstrates what a first world coutry is capable of doing to insure the safety of people in custody. The girls wasn't even being questioned but there was video.

Off-hand I can't remember exactly what she said in her notes but I believe she mentioned the treatment in one of them. I wondered if that startled the PLE as residents probably know that one doesn't do that. What happens in the questura stays in the questura unless the PLE decide to leak or make something up.

Interesting seeing one of Seattle’s finest going into action against someone I would call a kid as a 15 year old and the fact there was VIDEO RECORDING in cells didn’t seem to deter his attack.

Anyway, do you know whether Amanda’s legal team actually made a formal complaint to the police?

How would making a formal complaint end in the legal team being charged, which member(s) of defence team stated they feared being arrested?

Was Amanda’s treatment part of any defence strategy during the 1st level trial, I only recall this coming out whilst Amanda was testifying, have I got it wrong again? I assume she would have told her legal team.

ETA: It’s not a major issue just that it keeps coming up and I can’t recall whether a formal complaint was even lodged with the court.

 

[toto]

Could someone remind me why the alleged cuffing or hitting wasn’t part of Amanda’s defence team strategy, as I recall the accusation was made by Amanda whilst testifying in the 1st level trial, I have always found it puzzling? It could have been like this

Any teacher would tell us that a cuff on the back of a head constitutes assault, even if it doesn't really hurt. I suspect it was a bit like that, part of the mental stress she was put under, but which the police officers concerned would see (to them) as relatively trivial.

 

[Dan O.]

Interesting seeing one of Seattle’s finest going into action against someone I would call a kid as a 15 year old and the fact there was VIDEO RECORDING in cells didn’t seem to deter his attack.

It's the difference between a real justice system and the sham that Italy sponsors that you don't seem to get. In the case you bring up, Paul Schene is now a former sheriff's Deputy. And the county settled in the civil suit paying Malika Calhoun $125,000.

 

[Mary_H]

I really don't see why any of it is puzzling, or what point you and Mary are making - unless you're being deliberately ironic.

The defamation charges are used as a way of crushing the truth about the interrogation, in order to maintain the pretence that she was treated fairly and that the statements were voluntary. They aren't in any way intended to "protect" the cops' reputations, because of course the cops would never face any charges merely for smacking a girl around while extracting a statement from her.

And of course they succeeded, because not only did Amanda tone down the claims, but even then she was hung out to dry by her own defence team.

See above. They were scared of having charges brought against them - it's that simple.

Big difference here is that the Perugia cops knew that no video of the interrogation would ever see the light of day.

Antony, I'm not being deliberately ironic. My point is that there seems to be an unspoken acceptance in both camps that cuffing a suspect during an interrogation is against the law and is a terrible thing to do. For the PIP, the scandal is that it was done at all. For the PGP, the scandal is that Amanda accused the police of doing it.

My question is why the police felt they had to vehemently deny the fact that they whacked her in the head a couple of times, "to help you remember," as Ficarra put it.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Any teacher would tell us that a cuff on the back of a head constitutes assault, even if it doesn't really hurt. I suspect it was a bit like that, part of the mental stress she was put under, but which the police officers concerned would see (to them) as relatively trivial.

Again, I could be wrong but if the accusation was lodged with 1st level trial the judge would have been compelled to investigate the formal allegation, given the problems this has caused I am starting to think no formal allegation was ever lodged by her legal team which is puzzling, anyway I probably have this all wrong.

 

[Mary_H]

It's the difference between a real justice system and the sham that Italy sponsors that you don't seem to get. In the case you bring up, Paul Schene is now a former sheriff's Deputy. And the county settled in the civil suit paying Malika Calhoun $125,000.

However, Schene was not found guilty.
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2012317057_schene10m.html
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/No-third-trial-for-ex-deputy-accused-of-jail-886478.php

 

[CoulsdonUK]

However, Schene was not found guilty.
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2012317057_schene10m.html
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/No-third-trial-for-ex-deputy-accused-of-jail-886478.php

Wow! Despite that VIDEO RECORDING, to quote Grinder! He got off!

 

[anglolawyer]

Again, I could be wrong but if the accusation was lodged with 1st level trial the judge would have been compelled to investigate the formal allegation, given the problems this has caused I am starting to think no formal allegation was ever lodged by her legal team which is puzzling, anyway I probably have this all wrong.

Stop plodding Coulsdon. We get it. If she was going to make something up don't you think it might have been a bit more alarming? There would be no room for doubt if THERE WAS A RECORDING.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>Off-hand I can't remember exactly what she said in her notes but I believe she mentioned the treatment in one of them. I wondered if that startled the PLE as residents probably know that one doesn't do that. What happens in the questura stays in the questura unless the PLE decide to leak or make something up.

From Amanda's memoriale:

In regards to this "confession" that I made last night, I want to make clear that I'm very doubtful of the verity of my statements because they were made under the pressures of stress, shock and extreme exhaustion. Not only was I told I would be arrested and put in jail for 30 years, but I was also hit in the head when I didn't remember a fact correctly. I understand that the police are under a lot of stress, so I understand the treatment I received.

(.....)

I have a clearer mind that I've had before, but I'm still missing parts, which I know is bad for me. But this is the truth and this is what I'm thinking at this time. Please don't yell at me because it only makes me more confused, which doesn't help anyone. I understand how serious this situation is, and as such, I want to give you this information as soon and as clearly as possible.

 

[Mary_H]

Again, I could be wrong but if the accusation was lodged with 1st level trial the judge would have been compelled to investigate the formal allegation, given the problems this has caused I am starting to think no formal allegation was ever lodged by her legal team which is puzzling, anyway I probably have this all wrong.

No, the lawyers didn't complain about it, because they knew it would be calunnia, that there would be no investigation and that there was no evidence. As I recall, the prosecution deliberately tried to get Amanda to make the claim during the trial so that they could take her to court for it.

 

[Grinder]

Coulsdon no formal allegation was made. Why exactly we don't know but as I recalled and Mary verified she mentioned the slapping BEFORE she had seen a lawyer.

Someone here could detail all the people charged by the ILE for defamation or other similar crimes. One specific was that Mignini threatened the West Seattle Herald for quoting someone that said Mignini was a bit off.

Now if you were honest about this, it is clear that Amanda mentioned the cuffing before she knew the interrogation wasn't recorded or at least before knowing no recording still existed.

Maybe one of the crime novelists has a quote in which the police say they told her the interrogation wasn't recorded so she could have a free hand while writing her notes

All the evidence we can gather, not withstanding the police themselves, indicates clearly that the police badgered her including a couple whacks to the head and led her to tell them what they knew to be correct.