Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

Mignini did issue the order for Patrick's arrest. That is documented in Matteini.

Thanks as always. Do you happen to know if he also was able to issue a search warrant? Did an arrest warrant make him a suspect?

 

[JREF2010]

In my view, Maresca is not playing to the cameras so much as he's playing to the Kerchers.

Since the minute the Kerchers arrived they were surrounded by the Lying Squad and Migninni magpies. imo. Maresca lead them to the stew and made sure they ate nowhere else.

They were fed the Migninni stew consistently and that leads to a tainted loyalty, like innocent Nazi followers not realizing what they are surrounded by.

The Perugia Migninni muppets and fearfuls, were playing the Nazi Terror Regime with Matteini as the lead musician. And the rest all bobbing their heads in unison that guilt was anyone who was in disagreement with them.

Its a form of brainwashing, as the interrogation was a trained skill and intentional outcome, that lead to the Kerchers and Maresca being tainted by the Perugian legal underbelly and incompetents.

After all how could all those police be wrong, even Edgardo Giobbi, how could everyone be wrong about it. 100% of those surrounding the Kerchers are 100% sure of all their data, even Stefonani. The Maresca factor swaying the family to drink, drink more, all you want....of the Migninni stew. "Heil Migninni!" Maresca may as well said.

I hope they play the Edgardo Giobbi video in court this time.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Patrick's shoes

Why didn't they take some of Patrick's shoes to check their tread patterns?

 

[anglolawyer]

Understood but the notes still come in and without a doubt the accusation plays big in the larger picture. The lawyers bringing it in would be saying we are not covering up anything. It is the prosecution that is objecting to transparency regarding the interrogation. The lawyers' instincts have been less than stellar.



As I mentioned earlier, nothing in the Hoyle article about mistreatment or any treatment of the wife.



The point is that they should try in court but publish on Youtube regardless. Have an actor play De Felice refusing to answer. Ask why the ILE is afraid of the truth.


As said earlier around 6:30 am


Later that day. Anglo contact the China connection


{quote]What if this is the sequence:

1. They rush down like crazy people and arrest Patrick.
2. They all pile in to the Caso Chiuso press conference to receive their accolades.
3. Right after the press conference, Stefanoni rings Mignini and says: the perp is someone other than Lumumba and Sollecito.

Still doesn't answer why they didn't search the house, take knives and shoes and question the wife at the station.

If they believed he had killed Meredith with a knife, they would have wanted to gather evidence. Why close the bar and not the house?



I still go in general with incompetence. I don't believe that the interrogation was of a nature that they coulod believe she tricked them



They didn't even wait to arrest Raf to go to his house or they went immediately after.



At 6.30am on Tuesday, November 6, the bell to his fourth-floor flat in the town buzzed insistently and a woman's voice outside demanded he opened the door. He had barely had time to do so when the woman, assisted by, Patrick estimates, 15 to 20 others, barged their way in.


The key is at the time of arrest for me. I want the defense to demand an answer to why nothing then and what buckled and correct meant to them before Amanda signed.

These were the same cops that accessed Nappy's ex's database and then flattened the tires of his physiologist. They are a sophisticated group [/QUOTE]

Like I said, I am always getting that wrong.

 

[Grinder]

I hope they play the Edgardo Giobbi video in court this time.

Maybe not in court but part of a very nice YT video. Didn't they have Mignini's CNN interview on tape? If not, just have someone read the transcript wearing Groucho Marx glasses, nose and eye brows so they can't be charged with some esoteric crime against the sanctity of the ILE.

Why didn't they take some of Patrick's shoes to check their tread patterns?

Darn I hate it when I'm on ignore. I've been saying shoes, clothes and knives.

 

[anglolawyer]

Well, they wouldn't have looked for a knife at the time of arrest if they thought they already had a knife. And they did have a knife: the one from Sollecito's pocket.

However, they didn't test it until 11/12 or 11/13, and it was tested at the same time as the Kitchen Knife.

But I guess that at some point they figured out that the pocket knife was too small, and therefore not THE knife.

But they collected THE knife on the 6th. So, since they were at Patrick's on the 6th too, why not get one from there too, especially as they had a witness who told them she vaguely remembered Patrick was the killer and was not sure Raffaele was there at all.

 

[RandyN]

To me the question of why the police didn't treat Patrick as the murderer and his family that first morning is the telling issue.

I don't believe there is any place that when arresting a murderer the police can't seal off the premises and take in his wife for questioning. That's where I would like the defense to put their second level of questioning right after asking the police chief what he meant by the "buckled and told us what we knew to be correct. (Remember M's spokesperson here could only come up with the explanation that he meant she told us some things we knew to be correct).

The DNA concerning this aspect of the case could either be included at this point or later when dealing with all the other DNA alleged evidence.

I'm not arguing with any of the above discussion about how and when the DNA of Patrick et al. were tested and how, but I'd like to separate that discussion from the straightforward issues of the police's behavior a priori that morning.

They should be producing these videos now. "They said they believed my statement that they made me sign yet they didn't search the house and take in his knives and shoes for testing. They even left his family behind to clean up and dispose of evidence. Apparently according to this report (tab story about Patrick's treatment) the police tried to repeat what they did to me and get him to "confess" then they think evidence is just an add on. This is how they work." - Amanda lead in to spokesperson

AGREE 100%

The defense needs to take a offensive position.

Perhaps something they are uncomfortable with but without this the prosecution nonsense gets to remain alive when it should have been laughed away years ago.

During the trial I figured the defense were dogging it to stretch out the fees for extra years...now I just think they are incompetent oafs so far out of their depth as to unable to defend against this joke of a prosecution. Its not like its close...its not like its not an easily visible farce...

Some important media type or perhaps YouTube is good enough... needs to be putting this stuff out yesterday!

 

[RandyN]

Funny on the planting angle.

They did treat him like crap, looking for another buckling. It is their way, but why not bring in all the knives and shoes and ????

Their was no mention of his place being searched in the Hoyle story. If what we think is true about the arrest isn't, then obviously this approach wouldn't work. If they did take in his stuff, then the question is why wasn't it tested.

Well if we had access to the EDF's we would know if they tested any items from Lumumba. My bet??? No!

 

[RandyN]

Then you are recommending a very major move. The statements she signed will not be before the court. Theoretically, the professional and public judges will have to put them from their minds, even if they know perfectly well what they said. The lawyers' instincts will be not to play with fire so I don't see this idea playing out in practise even if it were a good idea, as to which I am unsure.




Diocletian seems to be getting somewhere with his analysis of the docs which don't seem to throw up any testing of his stuff. At the Matteini hearing the only knife that was mentioned was Raffaele's pocket knife. There was no reference to shoe prints or suspicious items or anything pertaining to Lumumba save as Dan set out a few posts ago. Not enough I agree. None of the accounts I have read about his treatment make any mention of his wife and kid spending a cold night out on the street while the apartment was tossed.

It would be great to investigate the investigation but the forthcoming trial presents only limited opportunity to do so IMO.

LOL!!! Really? And after 6 years plus the recent SC motivation report you understand this fact why?

Time to meet this bull head on. The signed statements are not hard to understand....the keeping out of them on the technicality gives them more credit IMHO. As if well maybe she actually said these things and so.... go at them...its in Italian...there is no recording even tho everything else is double recorded. Three defendants were denied their constitutional rights to a lawyer...one non-citizen was denied a call to the embassy. This is more important than leaving the world guessing as to if the statements may have actually been freely given.

Anyone taking a peek will see who the whore is in this story. His name is Mignini.

 

[RandyN]

I am always getting this wrong but I think they went to Patrick's pretty much straight after Amanda's first statement - so in the small hours (3 a.m. or so?) and the case chiuso press conference was pretty early I think. I was joking about them being huddled outside. All I meant was that the accounts suggest (but do not deal with it specifically) that he was hustled off in the middle of the night, not that wife and kid were booted out. After all, if they sealed off his place like they did Le Chic, then it would have been out of bounds for months, right? And I can't believe we would not know about that.

I like your idea. It hangs together well. Be on the watch for me to adopt it as my own

Pretty sure Lumumba tells us the time of arrest in his DM interview...like Guede its hard to imagine that he makes everything up...simply no reason to do that.

 

[RandyN]

I don't know. It's a quandary. What I do know is that they knew before they went to Matteini that Uomo 2 was the rapist, not Sollecito or Lumumba.

When did they match Sollecito's shoes?

The original 4th suspect was Usi or Uso (DanO?) It was Lumumbas one named friend. This was reported on somewhere...Im going from memory and since I have no ability at search don't bother requesting a cite from me...just trust me...I have a strong memory...not infallible but strong.

Guede was later the 5th suspect. One of the early books related that the fingerprint guy called to inform the police or Mignini that there was a 5th...I think this is total BS though and I am certain that Guedes friend is the only reason the PLE ever got his name as early as they did. No way it was by fingerprints or DNA ....they are just not competent enough for that to be true.

 

[RandyN]

Mignini did issue the order for Patrick's arrest. That is documented in Matteini.

Mignini also wrote an order that forbade lawyers access to the defendants based on some bogus mafia technicality. This order has been requested but it seems to have gone missing...WAFS!!!

 

[codyjuneau]

Mignini also wrote an order that forbade lawyers access to the defendants based on some bogus mafia technicality. This order has been requested but it seems to have gone missing...WAFS!!!

.
It would be interesting to see the order that justified denying Raffaele and Amanda lawyers. A bomb threat phone call probably qualifies as a terrorist act. Perhaps they used the bomb threat phone call to justify denying them lawyers. It is easy to imagine why they would not want that order made public, especially if it exposed the "boy's prank" lie.

Just a thought.
.

 

[anglolawyer]

LOL!!! Really? And after 6 years plus the recent SC motivation report you understand this fact why?

Time to meet this bull head on. The signed statements are not hard to understand....the keeping out of them on the technicality gives them more credit IMHO. As if well maybe she actually said these things and so.... go at them...its in Italian...there is no recording even tho everything else is double recorded. Three defendants were denied their constitutional rights to a lawyer...one non-citizen was denied a call to the embassy. This is more important than leaving the world guessing as to if the statements may have actually been freely given.

Anyone taking a peek will see who the whore is in this story. His name is Mignini.

not sure your strategy is the right one but I would pay to see it in operation. You want to put all her chips on red even though the objective is not to break the house but just end up with the taxi fare home confused: does that simile work?)

 

[Grinder]

But they collected THE knife on the 6th. So, since they were at Patrick's on the 6th too, why not get one from there too, especially as they had a witness who told them she vaguely remembered Patrick was the killer and was not sure Raffaele was there at all.

Yes and this strengthens your PL text message erasure argument. IIRC they didn't take the knife from Raf's until AFTER they arrested PL. If they believed AK at all why no seizures at PL's and why no questioning of the wife in the station. Why close his bar but not his flat. I gave a quote up-thread where a reporter stated that no one answered the door at PL's but they thought the wife was at home. Had the place been sealed they would have reported that.

LOL!!! Really? And after 6 years plus the recent SC motivation report you understand this fact why?

Time to meet this bull head on. The signed statements are not hard to understand....the keeping out of them on the technicality gives them more credit IMHO. As if well maybe she actually said these things and so.... go at them...its in Italian...there is no recording even tho everything else is double recorded. Three defendants were denied their constitutional rights to a lawyer...one non-citizen was denied a call to the embassy. This is more important than leaving the world guessing as to if the statements may have actually been freely given.

Agree. Anybody following this case at all knows about the "accusation" and it reads so badly and in Italian that it makes it hard to believe she gave it and that PL was arrested for it.

Pretty sure Lumumba tells us the time of arrest in his DM interview...like Guede its hard to imagine that he makes everything up...simply no reason to do that.

Yes he does 6:30 am and it was reported that way at the time. The detail of the boy being fed makes it highly unlikely to be 3 am after the first statement.

not sure your strategy is the right one but I would pay to see it in operation. You want to put all her chips on red even though the objective is not to break the house but just end up with the taxi fare home confused: does that simile work?)

No it doesn't work . The objective is to win the case but if the court restricts the defense as is implied by the ISC ruling how can they win? It is more the opposite of your, whatever it is, example. You are implying that they should put everything on double zeros and hope.

The other approach is to bet on everything that can be reached. Expose the whole case in weekly videos, explaining along the way what the court will hear and what they won't. Ask for new independent experts and if not allowed, say so and then summarize C&V and show the letter sent by the DNA people from here. Have Kas explain that whereas when DNA started in trials it was used to ID found substances associated with the crime but that touch DNA is just ID'd DNA that could be totally unrelated to the crime and that it is so easy to transfer that very special techniques need to be used for collection, transport and testing - none of which were followed in this case. Take a grain of salt (or something small) and tell the audience how many times more material are in that grain than were alleged to be on the knife. Show a rusted clasp and point out a piece of CRUCIAL evidence was missed and allowed to be moved around the floor my ordinary police and then 47 days later was found again and taken in for testing. Explain that when it was attempted to retest it during the appeal it had been spoiled in storage by the police expert that the case relies on. The same clasp that lasted just fine on the floor for 47 days couldn't be properly stored by the top police expert on the case. That wouldn't pass the smell test in a movie. The only circumstantial evidence putting Raf there couldn't be evaluated by anyone but the police technician. Wow.

I think it more dangerous to just hope for acquittal than to expose as much of the bad police and prosecution work as possible.

 

[RWVBWL]

The other approach is to bet on everything that can be reached. Expose the whole case in weekly videos, explaining along the way what the court will hear and what they won't. Ask for new independent experts and if not allowed, say so and then summarize C&V and show the letter sent by the DNA people from here. Have Kas explain that whereas when DNA started in trials it was used to ID found substances associated with the crime but that touch DNA is just ID'd DNA that could be totally unrelated to the crime and that it is so easy to transfer that very special techniques need to be used for collection, transport and testing - none of which were followed in this case. Take a grain of salt (or something small) and tell the audience how many times more material are in that grain than were alleged to be on the knife. Show a rusted clasp and point out a piece of CRUCIAL evidence was missed and allowed to be moved around the floor my ordinary police and then 47 days later was found again and taken in for testing. Explain that when it was attempted to retest it during the appeal it had been spoiled in storage by the police expert that the case relies on. The same clasp that lasted just fine on the floor for 47 days couldn't be properly stored by the top police expert on the case.<snip>

I think it more dangerous to just hope for acquittal than to expose as much of the bad police and prosecution work as possible.

Great ideas Grinder!
I'd like to believe that this has been done before,
but then again, I've never read of it so:

Get Hekuran Kokomani's fingerprints and compare them to the 13 unattibuted fingerprints found at the gals flat that FS mentions here:

Also there's a bit of confusion with full or partial fingerprints or stains but at the end we may say that of these signs 97 could be said to be fingerprints. 47 belonged to Meredith Kercher, 17 to Rudy Guede, 5 to Raffaele Sollecito, 5 to Filomena Romanelli, 5 to Laura Mezzetti, 4 to Giacomo Silenzi, 1 to Amanda Knox, 13 were not attributed to anyone.
<snip>
If we then start to finally consider those 13 unattributed fingerprints, together with the unknown DNA detected, and the other clues that we have seen (two male people running) we understand again that the scenario could be really different from the depicted one and insisting on Amanda and Raffaele maybe had the effect of misleading the investigation from the right direction.

FS also wrote this:

HAND-PRINTS, FOOTPRINTS AND BLOOD
In the police database there are 9 millions record cards with fingerprints and only 1 million with hand-prints too. Thanks to Rudy's usual bad luck, they had taken his palm too.

Link again:
http://web.archive.org/web/20100806235928/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009_04_01_archive.html


Surely Kokomani,
bein' Albanian, IIRC, had his fingerprints taken and already on file and they were compared to those 13 unattributed fingerprints, right?

 

[RandyN]

not sure your strategy is the right one but I would pay to see it in operation. You want to put all her chips on red even though the objective is not to break the house but just end up with the taxi fare home confused: does that simile work?)

Yea...no.

The normal objective would be to sit back and object to the prosecution case since there is nothing that could be called evidence beyond a reasonable doubt either singly or all taken together. One pile of crap or ten piles of crap still makes a case that smells. I cant understand this Italian logic...if we just make up 100 things or 100 conjectures then we have a case. Yea...NO!

Its not putting everything on Red unless you are suggesting the Italians need an out in order to save face? And since we all know they have had several chances to do that and have not just thumbed their Roman noses but have done so at the expense of logic, creditability, and in the SC instance what certainly must be against the law.

But no I would prefer to silently win the case and close the door on Italy. But I dont see that happening without exposing this corruption completely. Or at least painting for the rest of the sane world a picture... as hard as it is to believe, that a mixture of corruption and stupidity and national pride has given this insane case a life it never deserved to have in the first place.

All along we have heard the PGP state that the SC found that Guede had accomplices...and we all laughed at how stupid that was to even consider since Guede was never questioned by anyone who disagreed with that contention. No one disagreed even though nothing indicates that Guede had any help at all. Its only an idea. No evidence. No witnesses. Nothing. And so we all laughed at the absurdity...and LOOK WHAT THE SC DID!

They have no idea of judicial correctness, they apparently have no idea about the law, they certainly don't understand their mandate...and who exactly is going to teach them? No one!

These two defendants are going to be convicted. Italy does not care how stupid or bad they look. They appear to be bull headed idiots and the world be damned. One Italian familiar with the case has spoken out against this injustice...Hellmann... is that enough? I dont think so.

So yes the Italians need to understand what the scorched earth approach is all about. I know RS has the most to worry about but unfortunately nothing but this approach will save him or Knox.

I remain doubtful that YouTube will be effective. A PBS Frontline investigation or some BBC equivalent is the only thing that will work I think. The network investigative shows have watered the case down and rarely or barely scratched at the corrupt,stupid, sloppy case put on by the Italians. Mignini lies, Stefanoni lies, sloppy incorrect DNA collection, amplification, interpretation, and finally mishandled storage rendering the key samples to be destroyed. So what are we left with?

Stefanonis egrams? Totos testimony? Since he is dead can they still use that? Sure its Italy. But why do I suspect the Independent Expert report will somehow be disallowed?

Are the defense lawyers blocked from mentioning the prosecution and Marescas contradictions? I think they are key. The experts wanted to open the knife handle...defense said sure go ahead...prosecution and M said NO WAY!!! But gave no reason. Same with the testing of the semen stain...defense says go ahead test...Mignini and Maresca and Kerchers apparently all say no.

But now....the prosecution has changed its story...now they want to test and in fact demand more testing and use the stupid excuse that now tests are better and this is why...but they still fail to justify the objections they had in the other trials.

Finally I saw this today and it is talking about the taped interrogation and something Follain said in an interview...I dont recall the author but if you force me I will go back and find a link...


"The mystery of the disappearing tapes
In fact there is good evidence that the interrogation was recorded but the tapes have ‘disappeared’. Sunday Times journalist John Follain has been close to the prosecution from the start. His book, ‘Death in Perugia’ is slanted to favour the prosecution’s view of the case. Follain’s feature interview with Knox’s parents and sister, Deanna, published in June 2008 included the claim that Knox had been hit while being interrogated and led directly to her parents Edda Mellas and Curt Knox being charged with criminal slander themselves.

But Follain’s interview included another tantalising phrase: “Only a small part of Knox’s taped statement has been leaked to the media; the full transcript hasn’t surfaced”. Did Follain make this up? This is unlikely. Did he know that the interrogation had been recorded? He probably did. It would not be a stretch to call him a friend of the prosecutor. The subsequent disappearance of the recording can only mean that Knox was telling the truth all along but her truth cannot be allowed out in Italy."

OK that's it....

I never followed Follain much because I considered him no different than Vogt or Nadope. In fact his book had to be held from release since I suppose the appeal verdict came as big a surprise as it did for Migniniac...and he had to rewrite a good deal of it to make himself seem less stupid and one sided. For that I always judged Follain as the biggest whore of the big four...BLN, Vogt, Nick P...

I expect that the day the courts start to consider appeal items is when we will understand just how screwed the pooch actually is...although IIRC I had a bad feeling when Hellmann denied 99% of the defendants appeal items during the first appeal. If you consider what they wanted and what he allowed it didn't look good at all. Perhaps this is what the SC actually wants to see? Yea right...NO!

 

[anglolawyer]

Maybe I meant 'metaphor' rather than 'simile' Are there outs in roulette?

Randy, your approach might be the best but I don't see it panning out this way, especially with the same legal teams (assuming no change). But who knows?

 

[Grinder]

It would be great if a top notch investigative show like 60 minutes would do a segment a week, but that's beyond the control of the defense.

It is a long-shot that they will do anything outside their respective boxes. The lawyers will object respectfully in court and call the judges your honors with utmost of decorum.

The PR people will arrange interviews and put out "railroad from hell" talking point releases.

The use of viral going videos may be beyond their abilities to see another path.

Well done public videos in Italian and English would have a much bigger reach than any other reasonably possible approach.

Keep asking to get to the truth with several independent experts on DNA, footprint analysis, luminol analysis, digestive timing, computer cloning as well as interviewing the police and so-called witnesses. They should show Curatolo, if that recording hasn't been lost, and ask the audience if a man on heroin that didn't come forward until month later that got the night and scene wrong should even be considered. I'd like to see the reporter(s) that talked the witnesses into "coming out" interviewed.

 

[RandyN]

It would be great if a top notch investigative show like 60 minutes would do a segment a week, but that's beyond the control of the defense.

It is a long-shot that they will do anything outside their respective boxes. The lawyers will object respectfully in court and call the judges your honors with utmost of decorum.

The PR people will arrange interviews and put out "railroad from hell" talking point releases.

The use of viral going videos may be beyond their abilities to see another path.

Well done public videos in Italian and English would have a much bigger reach than any other reasonably possible approach.

Keep asking to get to the truth with several independent experts on DNA, footprint analysis, luminol analysis, digestive timing, computer cloning as well as interviewing the police and so-called witnesses. They should show Curatolo, if that recording hasn't been lost, and ask the audience if a man on heroin that didn't come forward until month later that got the night and scene wrong should even be considered. I'd like to see the reporter(s) that talked the witnesses into "coming out" interviewed.

While I agree that the defense will take the well worn path. I think it is a fatal mistake. As for video releases etc...who , how , where? And as for the network news ...even shows like 60 minutes or 48 Hours appear to be ineffective. And no wonder since hardly one can produce a show without injecting the "expert opinion" of Barbie Nadope. This in spite of the NewsWeek downfall and reports that The Beast is leaking money faster than the Titanic took on water.

Recently I have reviewed some of the news-magazines and honestly they ask some powerful questions and point out the missing case against these two...some even hammer Mignini for his psycho-prosecutions...and yet this corrupt, fact-less, illegal case moves right along unimpeded.

Will daily YouTube material gather a following? Cant hurt I suppose but honestly the "sht" needs to hit the fan in court. Anything else is crying over spilled milk. The defense needs to be the offense. Nothing short of demanding facts and evidence and calling out BS for what it is. But these lawyers are afraid to support Knox testimony that she was struck during her interrogation...I recall the Perugia slug telling the news something to the effect that she didnt really mean that...WTH? Her story would be an illogical lie. Why go into details that she understood why they might hit her? She is difficult to work with and the cops are under a great deal of pressure? Who says that? Certainly not someone who wishes to lie and claim fake abuse.

Today is Sept 2nd. So far the major news about the trial concerns Knox refusing to return for trial. Nothing about the fact that Italy never bothered to request either defendant to be present. Only that Knox will not return. Who is making the hay? Hint...NOT THE DEFENSE!!! Same ole same ole...and so unless the next judge happens to be another Hellmann and the co-judge another Zanetti then these defendants with these same lawyers are in deep trouble.

I contend the defense was useless during the appeal...and if not for Zanetti asking the powerful questions (like hey Guede...do you understand all these words that you supposedly wrote?) then they would have lost the 1st appeal as well.

Did they ever ask for the CCTV tapes from every camera between the cottage and RS place? I recall something about that nothing was seen and so the police never bothered to share this data and yet why the hell did the defense fail to use this "nothing was seen" as evidence? Are these "killers" ghost like? Must be since they leave no prints, video, DNA (or they can float above the scene while cleaning up the evidence with the DNA eraser etc...) and no one saw them except for Toto who can see ghosts while under the influence of Heroin...and even then he gives them a perfect alibi that makes it impossible for them to be involved with the murder at all....no matter what crazy TOD one wishes to make up. I don't think anyone has stretched that past midnight...I suppose that's next.

If an effective investigative report is in the works ...it needs to have started this past March....and it needs to be released sooner rather than later.

I see a guilty verdict from these rotten dirty scoundrels...they appear to be the type who would steal Christ from the cross and then come back for the nails. That's my best guess going by what I have seen and see now.