Burning Painted Steel Beams, Making Iron-Rich Microspheres!

[DaveThomasNMSR]

Good morning Dave -Steve here... I have a couple of questions about the validity of your experiment and your "evidence " obtained from said experiment.

A magic trick is a little play, carefully crafted , detail by detail. It is devised so that everything is so obviously fair that the one or two small points on which depend the success of the deception may be slid over without attracting attention. _John Mulholland

I guess you missed this sentence from the OP:

There are many ways this experiment could be improved, using perhaps a controlled heating protocol, for which the temperature of formation of iron-rich microspheres from the combustion of painted steel could be obtained. Thoughtful suggestions for future work will be given thoughtful consideration.

 

[beachnut]

Good morning Dave -Steve here... I have a couple of questions about the validity of your experiment and your "evidence " obtained from said experiment.

A magic trick is a little play, carefully crafted , detail by detail. It is devised so that everything is so obviously fair that the one or two small points on which depend the success of the deception may be slid over without attracting attention. _John Mulholland

Iron spheres can come from fire. Gee whiz, iron is 6 percent of the earth's crust. You got them in your back yard. Are you able to find what is all over earth? No? Why not?

911 truth lies are exposed. After 12 years following 911 truth is due to willful ignorance, an inability to comprehend the many studies.

To call science a magic trick is indicative of 911 truth's comprehension of reality.

 

[DaveThomasNMSR]

Iron spheres can come from fire. Gee whiz, iron is 6 percent of the earth's crust. You got them in your back yard. Are you able to find what is all over earth? No? Why not?

911 truth lies are exposed. After 12 years following 911 truth is due to willful ignorance, an inability to comprehend the many studies.

To call science a magic trick is indicative of 911 truth's comprehension of reality.

You know, it might help if I gave Fonebone some simple practical guidance here:

Here's Dave Thomas doing Science:


Here's Dave Thomas doing Magic:

There -- I hope that helps!

 

[Fonebone]

I have a question for you Fonebone.

Why exactly could it not be exactly what it shows?

Your question appears to be premature but after I cover those exact points with Dave,
if there are any points that need clarification I will certainly address your
questions.

And you not liking the results doesn't really count as a valid reason.

Fair enough...And you liking the results of Dave's experiment likewise doesn't really count
as a validation of Daves experiment NOR the "evidence " he claims the experiment produced. Bic ?

 

[beachnut]

Your question appears to be premature but after I cover those exact points with Dave,
if there are any points that need clarification I will certainly address your
questions.

Fair enough...And you liking the results of Dave's experiment likewise doesn't really count
as a validation of Daves experiment NOR the "evidence " he claims the experiment produced. Bic ?

bic?
lol

iron spheres occur in fires with things that have iron in them


What does not have iron in it? The WTC was made of iron, had tons of iron bearing stuff in it.

Your fantasy inside job is proved wrong with science, which you imply is magic. 911 truth followers live in a fantasy world where thinking for is prohibited, they have to let 911 truth do the thinking.

 

[LSSBB]

Your question appears to be premature but after I cover those exact points with Dave,
if there are any points that need clarification I will certainly address your
questions.

Fair enough...And you liking the results of Dave's experiment likewise doesn't really count
as a validation of Daves experiment NOR the "evidence " he claims the experiment produced. Bic ?

My like or dislike has nothing to do with it. I want the Truth. What about you?

 

[Fonebone]

Iron spheres can come from fire. Gee whiz, iron is 6 percent of the earth's crust. You got them in your back yard. Are you able to find what is all over earth? No? Why not?

911 truth lies are exposed. After 12 years following 911 truth is due to willful ignorance, an inability to comprehend the many studies.

To call science a magic trick is indicative of 911 truth's comprehension of reality.

To mislabel sloppy pseudoscience as "science" is indicative of the integrity
of the 911 truth opposition movement as a whole and to label the results
of this unscientific experiment as exculpating evidence should be criminal.
In fact if the attack on America and the subsequent murders of thousands of
American citizens on 9-11-2001 were to be declared an unsolved crime and a
genuine criminal investigation were officially launched this artificial "astroturf" truth
opposition movement would quickly evaporate and the American people would have a
completely new set of powerful and effective investigative tools to help identify,
arrest and prosecute the culprits and their minions. Bic ?

 

[Fonebone]

I guess you missed this sentence from the OP: There are many ways this experiment could be improved, using perhaps a controlled heating protocol, for which the temperature of formation of iron-rich microspheres from the combustion of painted steel could be obtained. Thoughtful suggestions for future work will be given thoughtful consideration.

No Dave -- you guessed incorrectly
- I did not miss your post nor your highlighted request for "thoughtful"
suggestions.

I'm not yet offering thoughtful suggestions for your "future work".
I'm criticizing your disingenuous "past work" that you are positing as evidence in
your OP:

 

[beachnut]

To mislabel sloppy pseudoscience as "science" is indicative of the integrity
of the 911 truth opposition movement as a whole and to label the results
of this unscientific experiment as exculpating evidence should be criminal.
In fact if the attack on America and the subsequent murders of thousands of
American citizens on 9-11-2001 were to be declared an unsolved crime and a
genuine criminal investigation were officially launched this artificial "astroturf" truth
opposition movement would quickly evaporate and the American people would have a
completely new set of powerful and effective investigative tools to help identify,
arrest and prosecute the culprits and their minions. Bic ?

Did you copy and paste this nonsense?

12 years of failure and calling science magic, priceless.

 

[LSSBB]

To mislabel sloppy pseudoscience as "science" is indicative of the integrity
of the 911 truth opposition movement as a whole and to label the results
of this unscientific experiment as exculpating evidence should be criminal.
In fact if the attack on America and the subsequent murders of thousands of
American citizens on 9-11-2001 were to be declared an unsolved crime and a
genuine criminal investigation were officially launched this artificial "astroturf" truth
opposition movement would quickly evaporate and the American people would have a
completely new set of powerful and effective investigative tools to help identify,
arrest and prosecute the culprits and their minions. Bic ?

Well, you've proven you have an Opinion.
What specifically is wrong with Dave's experiment.

 

[Miragememories]

"What specifically is wrong with Dave's experiment."

Dave did not perform his test in a 'clean' environment.

MM

 

[thedopefishlives]

Dave did not perform his test in a 'clean' environment.

MM

The WTC did not burn in a "clean" environment. Get over it.

 

[LSSBB]

Dave did not perform his test in a 'clean' environment.

MM

Thank you, Fonebone. Now, what is Dave's response to that issue?

 

[DaveThomasNMSR]

Thank you, Fonebone. Now, what is Dave's response to that issue?

Well, since the objective was to disprove Harrit's assertion that ONLY THERMITE CAN PRODUCE IRON-RICH MICROSPHERES, I kept the experiment as clean as it needed to be:

there was not one speck, not even a microgram, of any kind of Thermite.

That's the only contamination that's worth worrying about here.

And yes, I know the difference.

 

[beachnut]

Dave did not perform his test in a 'clean' environment.

MM

You mean like the WTC? wow

 

[Fonebone]

Burning Painted Steel Beams, Making Iron-Rich Microspheres!

Here are some photographs and results from a little experiment I did last May. While Truthers claim that only Thermite can create iron-rich microspheres, the video above shows some doozies being created by burning primer-painted steel beams in an ordinary wood fire in a burn barrel.

Here is the orange-primer-painted steel beam I obtained at the New Mexico Tech boneyard. We cut it in half after selection.

How was this tubular beam severed Dave ? Appears to be a nice clean cut eh?

One common method employed to cut tubular iron and steel tubing is by using a horizontal metal-cutting band saw. The metal cutting teeth along the cutting edge each cut a slim metal speck from the tubing and expel the shavings as a extra fine pile of powdered metal dust. Since metal sawing is a mechanical operation that has both a shaving and friction component a lubricant is generally employed to reduce the surface abrasion of the saw blade teeth
on the metal being cut and by doing so reduces frictional heat generated.
This fine metal will burn in the exact same manner as your steel wool example for the exact same reason-The steel wool and microfine saw blade shavings allow oxygen to easily combine with the metal creating rapid oxidation (burning)
when exposed to a nearby source of rapid oxidation i.e. the fire in your fire barrel. So Dave if you used a mechanical method to saw the tubing in half as you state and you did not take special care to remove every last trace of these metal powders the iron rich spheres you discovered in your experiment may have created by your own contamination without any thermite present.
If another method was utilized to sever the metal tubing such as plasma or laser beam the spheres you found could be the result of the vaporization and subsequent cooling of metal under the torch flame or the laser beam before the tubing was placed into the burn barrel.
Bottom line--
Deliberate contamination or accidental
contamination through carelessness renders you experiment null and void.


I included the quote from John Mulholland here for a reason Dave

A magic trick is a little play, carefully crafted , detail by detail. It is devised so that everything is so obviously fair that the one or two small points on which depend the success of the deception may be slid over without attracting attention. _John Mulholland

 

[LSSBB]

Burning Painted Steel Beams, Making Iron-Rich Microspheres!

Here are some photographs and results from a little experiment I did last May. While Truthers claim that only Thermite can create iron-rich microspheres, the video above shows some doozies being created by burning primer-painted steel beams in an ordinary wood fire in a burn barrel.

Here is the orange-primer-painted steel beam I obtained at the New Mexico Tech boneyard. We cut it in half after selection.

[qimg]http://www.nmsr.org/beams.jpg[/qimg]

How was this tubular beam severed Dave ? Appears to be a nice clean cut eh?

One common method employed to cut tubular iron and steel tubing is by using a horizontal metal-cutting band saw. The metal cutting teeth along the cutting edge each cut a slim metal speck from the tubing and expel the shavings as a extra fine pile of powdered metal dust. Since metal sawing is a mechanical operation that has both a shaving and friction component a lubricant is generally employed to reduce the surface abrasion of the saw blade teeth
on the metal being cut and by doing so reduces frictional heat generated.
This fine metal will burn in the exact same manner as your steel wool example for the exact same reason-The steel wool and microfine saw blade shavings allow oxygen to easily combine with the metal creating rapid oxidation (burning)
when exposed to a nearby source of rapid oxidation i.e. the fire in your fire barrel. So Dave if you used a mechanical method to saw the tubing in half as you state and you did not take special care to remove every last trace of these metal powders the iron rich spheres you discovered in your experiment may have created by your own contamination without any thermite present.
If another method was utilized to sever the metal tubing such as plasma or laser beam the spheres you found could be the result of the vaporization and subsequent cooling of metal under the torch flame or the laser beam before the tubing was placed into the burn barrel.
Bottom line--
Deliberate contamination or accidental
contamination through carelessness renders you experiment null and void.


I included the quote from John Mulholland here for a reason Dave

A magic trick is a little play, carefully crafted , detail by detail. It is devised so that everything is so obviously fair that the one or two small points on which depend the success of the deception may be slid over without attracting attention. _John Mulholland

Sure looks like there are multiple ways to create iron-rich micro spheres without Thermite, then, doesn't it?

 

[DaveThomasNMSR]

How was this tubular beam severed Dave ? Appears to be a nice clean cut eh?

One common method employed to cut tubular iron and steel tubing is by using a horizontal metal-cutting band saw. The metal cutting teeth along the cutting edge each cut a slim metal speck from the tubing and expel the shavings as a extra fine pile of powdered metal dust. Since metal sawing is a mechanical operation that has both a shaving and friction component a lubricant is generally employed to reduce the surface abrasion of the saw blade teeth
on the metal being cut and by doing so reduces frictional heat generated.
This fine metal will burn in the exact same manner as your steel wool example for the exact same reason-The steel wool and microfine saw blade shavings allow oxygen to easily combine with the metal creating rapid oxidation (burning) when exposed to a nearby source of rapid oxidation i.e. the fire in your fire barrel. So Dave if you used a mechanical method to saw the tubing in half as you state and you did not take special care to remove every last trace of these metal powders the iron rich spheres you discovered in your experiment may have created by your own contamination without any thermite present.
If another method was utilized to sever the metal tubing such as plasma or laser beam the spheres you found could be the result of the vaporization and subsequent cooling of metal under the torch flame or the laser beam before the tubing was placed into the burn barrel.
Bottom line--
Deliberate contamination or accidental
contamination through carelessness renders you experiment null and void.


I included the quote from John Mulholland here for a reason Dave

A magic trick is a little play, carefully crafted , detail by detail. It is devised so that everything is so obviously fair that the one or two small points on which depend the success of the deception may be slid over without attracting attention. _John Mulholland

Thank you, Fonebone. It appears we have areas of substantial agreement. For the most part, I agree with those of your statements I've hilighted above. That's not to say I agree my spheres were simply contamination - I don't think so, because I took care to sample the beam well away from the cut edge, and also far from any smudges from the fire. It is to say that, in principle, these spheres might have resulted from the processes you described, as these are well-known mechanisms for the creation of iron-rich microspheres.

Just one quick question: do you agree with me that Niels Harrit was wrong when he said

Fe-rich spheroids are observed after a thermite reaction. Fe-rich spheroids have never been observed unless there was a thermite reaction.

Agree, or disagree? You do realize that you're in the awkward position of having to admit that, yes, if the beams of the WTC had been prepared by means including, [=gasp=], mechanical cutting, or perhaps [=gasp=] acetylene torches, then that could explain the presence of iron-rich microspheres much better than an outlandish, unsupported claim like Thermite.

 

[DaveThomasNMSR]

Oh, I forgot to add...

Checkmate!

 

[Ivan Kminek]

Sure looks like there are multiple ways to create iron-rich micro spheres without Thermite, then, doesn't it?

Exactly
E.g. more than year ago, we discussed this stuff again in "Iron-rich microspheres" thread, and I posted this:

"C7: I don't know if it has been already linked, but after some quick googling, i have found this document about ashes formed in MSW incinerators cited by dr. Greening. Various round particles (see micrographs), containing e.g. iron are present and working temperatures in such incinerators are usually between 800 and 1000 degrees C.

Just for the record, I have also found this article about the perfectly round iron (rich) particles created in working diesel engines (temperatures ca 300 degrees). Some friction mechanisms seem to substantially contribute to their formation.
I'm not going to claim that some iron-rich spheres were created even by friction processes during WTC collapses, but... who knows?
Anyway (and ad nauseam), there are many potential sources of such metallospheres and you truthers have zero chance to find/distinguish those formed by thermite burning."

Later on, I found tens of papers dealing with the ash from biomass and similar "low temperature" incinerators and again, ferrospheres were found in them. As well as I found papers dealing with the formation of such spheres even at room temperature at special circumstances, ferrospheres coming from the burning of e.g. cigarettes, etc, etc.

In short: ferrospheres with a high content of iron could be created by many "non-thermite" ways prior, during and even after WTC catastrophe (as Dave demonstrated and you've just pointed out), therefore there is absolutely no reason to consider such utterly idiotic hypothesis like that they originate from CD/thermite reaction

(Namely in the cases where the "concentration" of ferrospheres found in the analyzed WTC dust was especially high, over 1 %, it is more than apparent that most of such spheres cannot come from thermite burning, otherwise the original amount of allegedly used thermite would be equal/would exceed thousand of tons!)