DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
It was actually far more energetic.
This is not really a point because, most organic compounds are.
Burning Painted Steel Beams, Making Iron-Rich Microspheres!
- Thread starter DaveThomasNMSR
- Start date
It was actually far more energetic.
This is not really a point because, most organic compounds are.
The Big Dog
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DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
No problem. If memory serves they hand waved this problem away by claiming there had to be "some type of organic contamination".
Miragememories
Banned
You forgot because the paper was never debunked.
Remembering lies is much more difficult than recalling the truth.
MM
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
The paper does not dispute the energy problem, they admit it exists. They attribute it to "unknown organics".
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ozeco41
Philosopher
No problem. If memory serves they hand waved this problem away by claiming there had to be "some type of organic contamination".
Don't forget "Swamps and Alligators"*
The whole issue of microspheres is a sideline off a red herring off an evasion of a re-branding marketing ploy because of the reality that truthers cannot prove CD.
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley
* "When you are up to your arse in alligators it is easy to forget that the objective was drain the swamp."
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
If only MM knew the best "debunking" of the paper is the paper itself.Don't forget "Swamps and Alligators"*
The whole issue of microspheres is a sideline off a red herring off an evasion of a re-branding marketing ploy because of the reality that truthers cannot prove CD.
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley
* "When you are up to your arse in alligators it is easy to forget that the objective was drain the swamp."
ozeco41
Philosopher
Justin39640
Illuminator
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So... it's your belief Dave's barrel burn completely and faithfully simulated the conditions that existed to produce the amount of microspheres found in the WTC dust?
Oh, how many iron spheres per mass were found by Jones and the fantasy thermite pusher Harrit? Got some math to go with that BS claim? No. Talk is all 911 truth has with 12 years of fantasy for the real cd deal.
Why is Jones iron sphere, iron oxide? That is not a product of thermite. Where is the iron?
It is ironic a simple fire makes products closer to the products of thermite. Your support of thermite goes along with the missing jolt and smoothness junk engineering you have been doing to support your real cd deal.
How come you can't get anyone at your office to support your claims?
The Big Dog
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Lolz! The paper is self debunking! We found a substance that releases more energy than thermite.
So not thermite, huh Jonesy et al?
The paper is a joke.
Wait...
The energy of the dust does not match the energy of thermite.
Four samples of dust have different energy than each other, and don't match thermite.
DSC does not match thermite.
How can anyone debunk a paper with a fantasy conclusion. Like debunking Santa and Bigfoot. Not needed. You are fooled by lies, and are one of the last 911 truth original followers to join reality.
Iron sphere from fire. I told you a long time ago.
If remembering lies was difficult, 911 truth would not exist.
? 911 truth is 99 Lies. Did you mean it is easier to remember lies then find the truth? Is this another failed 911 truth motto?
Do you like the thermite in the ceiling tile fantasy too? http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/thermite/blasting_scenario.html A million ceiling tiles... 911 truth can't get dumber, but they will try. Would that give the most iron spheres?
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DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
Actually I believe it is the other way around. Memory of the truth is subject to all sorts of external factors. It's a fluid creation in the mind based on perception. A lie is a made up story and usually much more calculated toward a point the person wants to make. It will often be inconsistent as the person tries to support it. Details in a lie will vary but the lie is a conscious story.
This has nothing to do with actual memory.
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Newtons Bit
Penultimate Amazing
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Yea, that they still don't get that is odd...
The one and only Harrit himself debunks his very own thermite claim in the caption of Figure 21:
Hi Tony,
Can you provide me a link for the significant spheres produced by igniting the chips ?
chrismohr
Master Poster
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Spanx, It's true that many iron-rich spheres were found in the WTC dust. The RJ Lee Report (I don't have the link) commented on this and said it was to be expected in a big fire like this. In Dave Thomas's second experiment, he easily found two spheres (very iron rich), but we don't know if there were as many spheres as in the WTC dust. No matter, it's moving the goalposts, since Harrit says iron-rich spheres = thermite. And for what it's worth, Dave Thomas did a FIRST experiment which we all agreed needed more work, so the second one measured iron content of the spheres etc. One of the guys helping him prepare the protocol for the second experiment suggested that Dave blow a lot of wind onto the burning paint/beams, because he knew that more wind creates more iron-rich spheres. Dave didn't do that, because he wasn't going for quantity. But NIST said that people reported hurricane winds in the Towers as they were escaping. Hmmm, huge winds, more microspheres, just like Dave's friend predicted!!!
Hi Chris,
Yes I agree there would be many spheres in the wtc dust. What I am after is a link to the spheres after the chips have been ignited.
Fonebone
persona non grata
creative deception ? or something else ?
Good morning Dave -Steve here... I have a couple of questions about the validity of your experiment and your "evidence " obtained from said experiment.
A magic trick is a little play, carefully crafted , detail by detail. It is devised so that everything is so obviously fair that the one or two small points on which depend the success of the deception may be slid over without attracting attention. _John Mulholland
Burning Painted Steel Beams, Making Iron-Rich Microspheres!
Here are some photographs and results from a little experiment I did last May. While Truthers claim that only Thermite can create iron-rich microspheres, the video above shows some doozies being created by burning primer-painted steel beams in an ordinary wood fire in a burn barrel.
Here is the orange-primer-painted steel beam I obtained at the New Mexico Tech boneyard. We cut it in half after selection.
I filled our burn-barrel with cedar wood, and prepared to light the fire.
I used paper and a few squirts of barbecue lighter fluid (representing tens of thousands of gallons of jet fuel) to get the fire going.
Once the fire was going well, I gently placed one of the painted beams into the fire.
Here are the post-fire control and burned beams.
These beams were far too large to be placed inside the scanning electron microscope, so I had to obtain samples by pressing an adhesive surface on the beams (very ineffective), or by scraping paint samples off the beams, choosing regions with paint only, and no ash residue (much more effective).
After the samples were prepared for the Scanning Electron Microscope (SEM), we scoured the un-burned samples, looking for anything remotely resembling a sphere. We found lots of tiny white blobs, but nothing at all spheroidal. Here is sample unburned#2, from a typical location (in the 3rd region examined).
Here is the EDX (Energy-dispersive X-ray) spectroscopy results for point 1 (one of the white blobs):
It shows lots of lead and chromium, and is most likely lead chromate (PbCrO4). There is also quite a bit of carbon.
An EDX spectrogram of one of the dark areas (Point 2) showed similar composition:
Things got really interesting when we started looking over the burned samples. It wasn't long at all before we stumbled over this beautifully spherical droplet of iron-rich material:
Here is the EDX of Point#1, right on the big sphere. This sample has a lot of iron!
And here's the spectrogram of a point not on the sphere:
This shows a lot of silicon, magnesium, and chromium, but not nearly as much iron as the sphere.
We kept looking, and soon found another microsphere on a different region of the burned sample:
Its EDX also showed that it was also very rich in iron (Fe), with a little oxygen:
Now, on this page, Talboo and Zugam quote Neils Harrit:
The Basile.org article shows micrographs and their spectra for Fig. 24 from the Harrit/Bentham paper on "Nanothermitic Incendiaries": "Spheres formed during ignition of commercial thermite, with corresponding typical XEDS spectrum":
And also, Fig. 25: "Spheres formed during ignition of red/gray chip in DSC, with corresponding typical XEDS spectrum ..." :
And finally, for Fig. 27 and 28: "Spheres extracted from WTC dust" and "XEDS spectrum from a sphere found in the WTC dust":
The Basile.org article notes that
and, they make a lot of noise about Harrit's microspheres being "reduced iron."
But just look at their spectra, and at the spectra of the burn-barrel microspheres above. The "ordinary fire" produces microspheres with more iron than oxygen, while the "thermitic" samples in the Basile.org article all show comparable amounts of oxygen and iron, which leads to my conclusion:
There are many ways this experiment could be improved, using perhaps a controlled heating protocol, for which the temperature of formation of iron-rich microspheres from the combustion of painted steel could be obtained. Thoughtful suggestions for future work will be given thoughtful consideration.
Discuss.
Oh, by the way, there are more fun videos at NMSR's YouTube Channel. Why not subscribe today?
Good morning Dave -Steve here... I have a couple of questions about the validity of your experiment and your "evidence " obtained from said experiment.
A magic trick is a little play, carefully crafted , detail by detail. It is devised so that everything is so obviously fair that the one or two small points on which depend the success of the deception may be slid over without attracting attention. _John Mulholland
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LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
I have a question for you Fonebone.
Why exactly could it not be exactly what it shows?
And you not liking the results doesn't really count as a valid reason.