Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Dan O.]

And the DNA results showing that some other guy did it . . . not worth mentioning?

There is no mention of DNA in that court report. There is one document dated November 7th that did get referenced in the report.

Do we know for certain that the DNA results were available on the 6th?



BTW: According to the court record, it was Mignini that ordered Patric's arrest so the cops shouldn't be blamed for that act. Only it's implimentation.

 

[RandyN]

Is the idea behind ongoing coverage of the trial, under the guidance (and direction) of the JREF all-stars, to influence domestic opinion in advance of any extradition so as to pile the pressure on the poor soul who gets to decide? If so, we could not be less alike over here. Shrien Dewani is facing extradition to South Africa for murder and his appointment of a PR guru is itself seen as a sign of guilt by some.

Still, provided you guys are sure you know what you're doing I'm happy to play my part. I can prepare daily press releases throughout exploring some new facet of the lamp

Well in fact none of this is our job. And I remain concerned that while Knox is the perfect hook and would garner the most attention...her being involved during the trial might be illegal.

That said some responsible news agency should pick up this ball. So far they have mostly ignored or got it wrong. Even this recent splash of Knox not returning is being twisted to her disadvantage when we all knew since march that there was no way in heck Knox was ever returning to face those corrupt lying maniacs...

The sad thing is that no major news gets it. That the real story is a case about a nutty prosecutor who presented a case w/o evidence, facts or witnesses. And additionally this nutty prosecutor went to extreme measures to deny rights guaranteed in the Italian constitution. And yet no sanctions or corrections were investigated or even suggested by any judicial authority...not even the coward politicians mention anything. Who was the minor level person who used his position to gain access to Knox and who wrote and profited from a book? What ever happened to him? Are there no Italians who have an opinion different from this crazy illogical impossible proposition presented so far? Are Hellmann and Zanetti the only two honest sane men left in Italy? This is not hard. It is easy and clear. The case of murder that is...WTH the Italians wish to imprison clearly innocent persons will always remain a mystery...stupidity, vanity, corrupt stupidity??? National pride disguised as stupidity? What ...what what???

 

[Bill Williams]

Well in fact none of this is our job. And I remain concerned that while Knox is the perfect hook and would garner the most attention...her being involved during the trial might be illegal.

That said some responsible news agency should pick up this ball. So far they have mostly ignored or got it wrong. Even this recent splash of Knox not returning is being twisted to her disadvantage when we all knew since march that there was no way in heck Knox was ever returning to face those corrupt lying maniacs...

The sad thing is that no major news gets it. That the real story is a case about a nutty prosecutor who presented a case w/o evidence, facts or witnesses. And additionally this nutty prosecutor went to extreme measures to deny rights guaranteed in the Italian constitution. And yet no sanctions or corrections were investigated or even suggested by any judicial authority...not even the coward politicians mention anything. Who was the minor level person who used his position to gain access to Knox and who wrote and profited from a book? What ever happened to him? Are there no Italians who have an opinion different from this crazy illogical impossible proposition presented so far? Are Hellmann and Zanetti the only two honest sane men left in Italy? This is not hard. It is easy and clear. The case of murder that is...WTH the Italians wish to imprison clearly innocent persons will always remain a mystery...stupidity, vanity, corrupt stupidity??? National pride disguised as stupidity? What ...what what???

As far as potential for loss of liberty is concerned, whatever happens needs to have primarily Raffaele Sollecito in mind.

If Knox showed up in Perugia, the only thing which would happen is it would become sensationalized again - that's not her fault, and never was. But as recent events in Perugia prove (to me at least) the best thing which ever happened economically (briefly) to Perugia was an influx of TV cameras and journalists (pseudo and otherwise) all who drank wine in the bars, some at all hours of the day - mostly at Knox's expense as they invented lurid stories to sell, and this was the TRUE disrespect to the Kerchers. The truth of what happened to Meredith at Rudy's hands was blurred.

The bully tactics to try to "shame" her to return to show respect to the system - the very system that seems poised to put Raffaele away for being completely innocent - can be seen for what it is: bully tactics. How can one be "shamed" by bullies?

So Knox's presence in Perugia and garnering attention would be worse than potentially illegal, it could harm Raffaele. I am sure this has been talked about and factored in.

Whatever "strategy" outside the courtroom, it needs to have Raffaele as person #1.

 

[RandyN]

I'm not sure that they would have or could have taken or arrested the wife and kid.

I'm also not sure what rights they had to seize evidence. In the US you would need a warrant for that--I'm not sure what the Perugian cops had or needed.

As to why they didn't seal the apartment immediately, I'm not sure. Perhaps they needed something more to accomplish that, too. Perhaps the wife left the premises and a cop was stationed there for a period of time. Not sure.

I am certain that whatever was needed to pursue a real suspect investigation... that Mignini was more than able to provide whatever was necessary.

The only critical element on the 5/6th was to get Knox into a jail cell. That was accomplished. And a few days later Migninis lunch buddy Claudia allowed him a year to make up a case against the two, three...four...whatever TH he wanted IMHO.

A more important question for Mignini and company was why he kept Lumumbas bar and therefore ability to feed his family closed for months after he was cleared of any wrongdoing?

Yea well err aaaaahhhh see he was ...........bastards.

 

[RandyN]

The evidence used to hold Patrick as well as Amanda and Raffaele is all listed in the Matteini report of November 9.

As I recall, the key elements were: Patrick's friend Usi only had one name. The lack of bar receipts for the early evening. Gerardo said the bar was closed (contrary to all the patrons). Patrick changed phones. Amanda and Patrick didn't remember exactly the same words for the text Patrick sent. Anamda's text saying she would meet Patrick. A ping of Patrick's phone to a tower near the cottage. And the statement coerced from Amanda's interrogations.

Yep exactly all great....and why did they arrest RS again?

 

[JREF2010]

The bully tactics to try to "shame" her to return to show respect to the system - the very system that seems poised to put Raffaele away for being completely innocent - can be seen for what it is: bully tactics. How can one be "shamed" by bullies?

geeez, the possibility of her being locked up as a flight risk would be too high, after all the insanity with Migninni and false accusations and mountain of charges filed for anything to stick (and possible corruption of the system), what a scary thought of her stepping foot into the airport there. I truly think they'd swarm her and have her locked up in a second on some mindboggling bs charge...flight risk then sealing her back into a cell, probably happily stamped by Matteini.

Maresca is such a slithering pro-prosecution puppet, its so sad the Kerchers couldnt have a honest, neutral, unbiased lawyer to comfort them and help them, instead of being used and abused by the career/club membership seeking Maresca.

bullying , what else does Maresca have to use to keep this witch hunt going and get Amanda back into the black-hole of the Italian legal mess?

 

[Diocletus]

There is no mention of DNA in that court report. There is one document dated November 7th that did get referenced in the report.

Do we know for certain that the DNA results were available on the 6th?

The “six day gap” is helpful.

Stefanoni has suppressed the egram date information for most of the egrams, I believe for the precise reason that she does not want us to know that the prosecution had exculpatory DNA results prior to the Matteini hearing.

We know that Stefanoni packed up and left with some of the crime scene samples on 11/5. Amplification run no. 543 occurred on 11/5. Also, amplification run no. 544 occurred on 11/6. Amplification runs nos. 545 to 548 have been suppressed. However, a page of Qubit quantification records, probably corresponding with samples that were amplified in amplification run no. 545, is dated 11/6. The very last entries on this page of Qubit quantification records are for the Lumumba, Sollecito, and Knox reference samples, seized at the time of their arrests on 11/6.

Collectively, the samples amplified in run nos. 543, 544, and the presumed 545, represent lab Rep. (Exhibit) nos. 1 through 31. They were all subjected to electrophoresis via plate nos. 354 to 358 (no dates on printed electropherograms).

Stefanoni testified that once there were suspects in a crime, testing could not proceed until they were provided with notice and an opportunity to be present.

On November 12 we started the technical assessments and then we have given notice to the parties on that date because it was already present say the suspects, so we had to give, of course, as the Code of Criminal Procedure, the start of operations laboratory, which, of course, attended by consultants, lawyers, which are reported in the minutes.

(Testimony dated 5/22/09, IIP Google Translation at page 23).

The lab records and Potenza’s report confirm that the testing on 11/12 picked up with Rep. 32 (Sollecito’s shoes).

Thus, the last pre-gap records of testing are dated November 6, and testing resumed on Monday, November 12. This is the “six day gap” (it’s actually only a five-day gap: 11/7 to 11/11, one day of which was the “bail” hearing, and two days of which were weekend). I can't exclude that some of the electrophoresis work extended into 11/7, but that would be inconsistent with the claimed "six day" gap, and further, possibly illegal given Stefanoni's testimony since suspects were arrested on 11/6.

So, we have a “Batch 1” of testing that occurred on 11/5-11/6, ostensibly before suspects were identified. Within this batch, we have a vaginal swab and a feces sample, both identified as belonging to “Uomo 2” (unknown male no. 2), and also the Sollecito and Lumumba reference samples that do not match Uomo No. 2. This information is known to Stefanoni and to the prosecution on 11/6 (again, possibly 11/7 if they took their time running electrophoresis and matching profiles up, which I doubt for the additional reason that everything was being rushed).

That is why we suddenly have a search for a “fourth man” on 11/8: he is Uomo No. 2, the rapist/murderer. The prosecution knows that neither Sollecito nor Lumumba are the rapist/murderer. Obviously, this is information that ethically, and one would hope legally, should have been given to Matteini in determining to deprive Sollecito and Lumumba of their freedom.

 

[Diocletus]

There is one document dated November 7th that did get referenced in the report.

What is that document, and what does it say?

 

[Dan O.]

Wait a minute, how do you get a reference sample from Lumumba before he becomes a suspect?

 

[Diocletus]

Wait a minute, how do you get a reference sample from Lumumba before he becomes a suspect?

The Lumumba reference sample was seized on 11/6 pursuant to a "decree of corporal inspection." Stefanoni has suppressed the corresponding extraction and amplification records, but it is listed on the Qubit records for that day (11/6).

 

[Grinder]

To me the question of why the police didn't treat Patrick as the murderer and his family that first morning is the telling issue.

I don't believe there is any place that when arresting a murderer the police can't seal off the premises and take in his wife for questioning. That's where I would like the defense to put their second level of questioning right after asking the police chief what he meant by the "buckled and told us what we knew to be correct. (Remember M's spokesperson here could only come up with the explanation that he meant she told us some things we knew to be correct).

The DNA concerning this aspect of the case could either be included at this point or later when dealing with all the other DNA alleged evidence.

I'm not arguing with any of the above discussion about how and when the DNA of Patrick et al. were tested and how, but I'd like to separate that discussion from the straightforward issues of the police's behavior a priori that morning.

They should be producing these videos now. "They said they believed my statement that they made me sign yet they didn't search the house and take in his knives and shoes for testing. They even left his family behind to clean up and dispose of evidence. Apparently according to this report (tab story about Patrick's treatment) the police tried to repeat what they did to me and get him to "confess" then they think evidence is just an add on. This is how they work." - Amanda lead in to spokesperson

 

[Bill Williams]

To me the question of why the police didn't treat Patrick as the murderer and his family that first morning is the telling issue.

Anyone with any trace left of trust in the PLE will have to explain this. To me this speaks FOR the complete incompetence of the PLE and against some organized conspiracy.

I don't believe there is any place that when arresting a murderer the police can't seal off the premises and take in his wife for questioning. That's where I would like the defense to put their second level of questioning right after asking the police chief what he meant by the "buckled and told us what we knew to be correct. (Remember M's spokesperson here could only come up with the explanation that he meant she told us some things we knew to be correct).

I would have added another item to the second level of questioning, but unfortunately it seems to gain traction in Italy. That item is "we solved this on "behaviour" before the forensics were in." (Please don't get in a knot that this is in quotes!) Behaviour might go a long way to focussing on a particular subject, but it neither proves guilt nor closes a case.

The DNA concerning this aspect of the case could either be included at this point or later when dealing with all the other DNA alleged evidence.

I'm not arguing with any of the above discussion about how and when the DNA of Patrick et al. were tested and how, but I'd like to separate that discussion from the straightforward issues of the police's behavior a priori that morning.

They should be producing these videos now. "They said they believed my statement that they made me sign yet they didn't search the house and take in his knives and shoes for testing. They even left his family behind to clean up and dispose of evidence. Apparently according to this report (tab story about Patrick's treatment) the police tried to repeat what they did to me and get him to "confess" then they think evidence is just an add on. This is how they work." - Amanda lead in to spokesperson

Either the PLE is completely incompetent or they are structurally flawed in methodology. And even though CoulsdonUK will regard it as cheeky to claim it, the ISC seems to buy into it, too.

For my money, everything past Patrick's release is simply a game of, "If you do not cooperate, we will simply string this out as only the Italian court system cam, with the goal to bankrupt you until you cave in...."

Where we are in Aug 2013 is simply the Italian system's way of delivering on that threat.

 

[anglolawyer]

Grinder

To what issue in the forthcoming trial does De Felice's remark go? I ask because even if, say, he were to admit they had a totally busted theory and made utter fools of themselves, that would not sweep away the prosecution case such as it is. De Felice could say 'look, our instincts proved to be correct once all the evidence came in, even if we were barking up the wrong tree at the beginning'.

At least the failure to seal Patrick's place (if that's what happened) has direct bearing on the recovery of the kitchen knife. It throws into focus the fact that the knife was not part of a larger haul but an improbable choice from the wrong place (given that Lumumba was the killer).

 

[Bill Williams]

bullying , what else does Maresca have to use to keep this witch hunt going and get Amanda back into the black-hole of the Italian legal mess?

In my view, Maresca is not playing to the cameras so much as he's playing to the Kerchers.

 

[Diocletus]

To me the question of why the police didn't treat Patrick as the murderer and his family that first morning is the telling issue.

Well, they certainly treated Lumumba like the murderer when they arrested him.

We don't know what exactly happened with the family and at his place after he was arrested. Obviously, as you point out, if the wife was there, I suppose there was a risk of evidence tampering if they deemed the place to be a crime scene. For that matter, the presence of the wife at the apartment would have prevented the police from planting any evidence . . .

 

[anglolawyer]

Well, they certainly treated Lumumba like the murderer when they arrested him.

We don't know what exactly happened with the family and at his place after he was arrested. Obviously, as you point out, if the wife was there, I suppose there was a risk of evidence tampering if they deemed the place to be a crime scene. For that matter, the presence of the wife at the apartment would have prevented the police from planting any evidence . . .

He might have had shoes in a cupboard with specks of blood on them, or a jacket likewise. Or he might have transferred fibres (not that it would matter because Stefanoni doesn't do fibre analysis). Or there might have been a knife in the kitchen drawer with presumed haematic substance on it.

 

[Grinder]

Grinder

To what issue in the forthcoming trial does De Felice's remark go? I ask because even if, say, he were to admit they had a totally busted theory and made utter fools of themselves, that would not sweep away the prosecution case such as it is. De Felice could say 'look, our instincts proved to be correct once all the evidence came in, even if we were barking up the wrong tree at the beginning'.

I think that the accusation of Patrick is the beginning and end for many of the PGP and general public. "Look the b**** accused an innocent black man and the only reason she would that is to protect herself of her boyfriend."

If the statements can be shown to be the forced BS that they were, I think the general opinion changes. I remember reading that story on the 7th with the quote on buckling and saying to myself that it sounded like BS.

If the world can be exposed to that quote of De Felice and it is made clear that she signed a document they wrote in Italian and conveniently no recording or transcription was made of any part of that session, the heart of the case for many will be broken.

Your comments are correct but the defense needs to show how this started and how the police not only barked up the wrong tree, they were in the wrong forest.

I guarantee you that if De Felice could be led into saying that they a theory she was involved and were able to get her to sign their theory, but it all turned out to be wrong, the appeal will be off to a winning start.

At least the failure to seal Patrick's place (if that's what happened) has direct bearing on the recovery of the kitchen knife. It throws into focus the fact that the knife was not part of a larger haul but an improbable choice from the wrong place (given that Lumumba was the killer).

Yes, all of this depends on our information that his place was treated as we think.

If it was and the police have to explain how they could believe he had killed Meredith and not rip apart his place like they did the cottage. Take in the knives and shoes at a minimum. Bring in the wife for basic questioning.

Get an Italian police type on the video saying it is normal procedure in such a case to do...

 

[Grinder]

Well, they certainly treated Lumumba like the murderer when they arrested him.

We don't know what exactly happened with the family and at his place after he was arrested. Obviously, as you point out, if the wife was there, I suppose there was a risk of evidence tampering if they deemed the place to be a crime scene. For that matter, the presence of the wife at the apartment would have prevented the police from planting any evidence . . .

Funny on the planting angle.

They did treat him like crap, looking for another buckling. It is their way, but why not bring in all the knives and shoes and ????

Their was no mention of his place being searched in the Hoyle story. If what we think is true about the arrest isn't, then obviously this approach wouldn't work. If they did take in his stuff, then the question is why wasn't it tested.

 

[anglolawyer]

I think that the accusation of Patrick is the beginning and end for many of the PGP and general public. "Look the b**** accused an innocent black man and the only reason she would that is to protect herself of her boyfriend."

If the statements can be shown to be the forced BS that they were, I think the general opinion changes. I remember reading that story on the 7th with the quote on buckling and saying to myself that it sounded like BS.

If the world can be exposed to that quote of De Felice and it is made clear that she signed a document they wrote in Italian and conveniently no recording or transcription was made of any part of that session, the heart of the case for many will be broken.

Your comments are correct but the defense needs to show how this started and how the police not only barked up the wrong tree, they were in the wrong forest.

I guarantee you that if De Felice could be led into saying that they a theory she was involved and were able to get her to sign their theory, but it all turned out to be wrong, the appeal will be off to a winning start.

Then you are recommending a very major move. The statements she signed will not be before the court. Theoretically, the professional and public judges will have to put them from their minds, even if they know perfectly well what they said. The lawyers' instincts will be not to play with fire so I don't see this idea playing out in practise even if it were a good idea, as to which I am unsure.

Yes, all of this depends on our information that his place was treated as we think.

If it was and the police have to explain how they could believe he had killed Meredith and not rip apart his place like they did the cottage. Take in the knives and shoes at a minimum. Bring in the wife for basic questioning.

Get an Italian police type on the video saying it is normal procedure in such a case to do...

Diocletian seems to be getting somewhere with his analysis of the docs which don't seem to throw up any testing of his stuff. At the Matteini hearing the only knife that was mentioned was Raffaele's pocket knife. There was no reference to shoe prints or suspicious items or anything pertaining to Lumumba save as Dan set out a few posts ago. Not enough I agree. None of the accounts I have read about his treatment make any mention of his wife and kid spending a cold night out on the street while the apartment was tossed.

It would be great to investigate the investigation but the forthcoming trial presents only limited opportunity to do so IMO.

 

[Diocletus]

None of the accounts I have read about his treatment make any mention of his wife and kid spending a cold night out on the street while the apartment was tossed.

I don't know that that would be necessary. They could have just gone to a friend's. Or, maybe they stayed at home and were questioned by a cop. We just don't know.

My questions right now are:

1. What time was Patrick arrested?
2. What time was the Caso Chiuso press conference?
3. What time were the forensic results eliminating Lumumba as the rapist/murderer transmitted to the prosecution?

What if this is the sequence:

1. They rush down like crazy people and arrest Patrick.
2. They all pile in to the Caso Chiuso press conference to receive their accolades.
3. Right after the press conference, Stefanoni rings Mignini and says: the perp is someone other than Lumumba and Sollecito.

What would you do if your overriding instinct in life is to save face?

You would get the Knox girl, who "tricked" you, by finding an incriminating knife in the place where she says she spent the night.

ETA: Two things happen after the Caso Chiuso press conference: 1) they fail to gather any Patrick evidence, effectively abandoning their case against him, and 2) they abandon the "downstairs crimescene" investigation and falsely claim that it's all cat's blood. Also, they don't test the Filomena window hair and blood samples, which is nuts. Everything focuses like a laser on Knox and Sollecito to the exclusion of all other possibilities.