Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Dan O.]

There is one document dated November 7th that did get referenced in the report.

What is that document, and what does it say?

Matteini Report on hearing of (7 November)? released 9 November.

My transcription and Googles translation:
(page 11 - renumbered 10)

The presence of Sollecito in Meredith's room is one objective fact which is represented
the impressions of the shoes are just under the duvet under which the body had been covered
thereof; this figure comes from both the first reliefs in the technical report dated 6 November
2007, both by pou-depth investigation referred to in the report of 7 November Service
Scientific Police in Rome, which stood full compatibility between these fingerprints and
Sollecito's shoes.​

(page 11 - renumbered 10)

La presenza del Sollecito nella stanza di Meredith risulta da un dato oggettivo che è rappresentato
dalle impronte delle scarpe trovate proprio sotto il piumone con il quale era stato coperto il corpo
della stessa; tale dato proviene sia dai primi rilievi di cui alla relazione tecnica del 6 novembre
2007, sia dai poù approfonditi accertamenti di cui alla relazione del 7 novembre del Servizio
Polizia scientifica di Roma, nella quale si attesta la piena compatibilità tra dette impronte e le
scarpe del Sollecito.​

This would be a very interesting report to see since we know now that the conclusion was totally wrong and obvious to any child that could count.

 

[Diocletus]

The presence of Sollecito in Meredith's room is one objective fact which is represented
the impressions of the shoes are just under the duvet under which the body had been covered
thereof; this figure comes from both the first reliefs in the technical report dated 6 November
2007, both by pou-depth investigation referred to in the report of 7 November Service
Scientific Police in Rome, which stood full compatibility between these fingerprints and
Sollecito's shoes.​

That Google translate is just awful.

It obviously should read "poo-depth".


In all seriousness, though, I believe that the fingerprint/shoeprint guys were a separate division from Stefanoni.

 

[anglolawyer]

I don't know that that would be necessary. They could have just gone to a friend's. Or, maybe they stayed at home and were questioned by a cop. We just don't know.

My questions right now are:

1. What time was Patrick arrested?
2. What time was the Caso Chiuso press conference?
3. What time were the forensic results eliminating Lumumba as the rapist/murderer transmitted to the prosecution?

What if this is the sequence:

1. They rush down like crazy people and arrest Patrick.
2. They all pile in to the Caso Chiuso press conference to receive their accolades.
3. Right after the press conference, Stefanoni rings Mignini and says: the perp is someone other than Lumumba and Sollecito.

What would you do if your overriding instinct in life is to save face?

You would get the Knox girl, who "tricked" you, by finding an incriminating knife in the place where she says she spent the night.

ETA: Two things happen after the Caso Chiuso press conference: 1) they fail to gather any Patrick evidence, effectively abandoning their case against him, and 2) they abandon the "downstairs crimescene" investigation and falsely claim that it's all cat's blood. Also, they don't test the Filomena window hair and blood samples, which is nuts. Everything focuses like a laser on Knox and Sollecito to the exclusion of all other possibilities.

I am always getting this wrong but I think they went to Patrick's pretty much straight after Amanda's first statement - so in the small hours (3 a.m. or so?) and the case chiuso press conference was pretty early I think. I was joking about them being huddled outside. All I meant was that the accounts suggest (but do not deal with it specifically) that he was hustled off in the middle of the night, not that wife and kid were booted out. After all, if they sealed off his place like they did Le Chic, then it would have been out of bounds for months, right? And I can't believe we would not know about that.

I like your idea. It hangs together well. Be on the watch for me to adopt it as my own

 

[Grinder]

Then you are recommending a very major move. The statements she signed will not be before the court. Theoretically, the professional and public judges will have to put them from their minds, even if they know perfectly well what they said. The lawyers' instincts will be not to play with fire so I don't see this idea playing out in practise even if it were a good idea, as to which I am unsure.

Understood but the notes still come in and without a doubt the accusation plays big in the larger picture. The lawyers bringing it in would be saying we are not covering up anything. It is the prosecution that is objecting to transparency regarding the interrogation. The lawyers' instincts have been less than stellar.

Diocletian seems to be getting somewhere with his analysis of the docs which don't seem to throw up any testing of his stuff. At the Matteini hearing the only knife that was mentioned was Raffaele's pocket knife. There was no reference to shoe prints or suspicious items or anything pertaining to Lumumba save as Dan set out a few posts ago. Not enough I agree. None of the accounts I have read about his treatment make any mention of his wife and kid spending a cold night out on the street while the apartment was tossed.

As I mentioned earlier, nothing in the Hoyle article about mistreatment or any treatment of the wife.

It would be great to investigate the investigation but the forthcoming trial presents only limited opportunity to do so IMO.

The point is that they should try in court but publish on Youtube regardless. Have an actor play De Felice refusing to answer. Ask why the ILE is afraid of the truth.

1. What time was Patrick arrested?

As said earlier around 6:30 am

2. What time was the Caso Chiuso press conference?

Later that day. Anglo contact the China connection


{quote]What if this is the sequence:

1. They rush down like crazy people and arrest Patrick.
2. They all pile in to the Caso Chiuso press conference to receive their accolades.
3. Right after the press conference, Stefanoni rings Mignini and says: the perp is someone other than Lumumba and Sollecito.[/quote]

Still doesn't answer why they didn't search the house, take knives and shoes and question the wife at the station.

If they believed he had killed Meredith with a knife, they would have wanted to gather evidence. Why close the bar and not the house?

What would you do if your overriding instinct in life is to save face?

You would get the Knox girl, who "tricked" you, by finding an incriminating knife in the place where she says she spent the night.

I still go in general with incompetence. I don't believe that the interrogation was of a nature that they coulod believe she tricked them

ETA: Two things happen after the Caso Chiuso press conference: 1) they fail to gather any Patrick evidence, effectively abandoning their case against him, and 2) they abandon the "downstairs crimescene" investigation and falsely claim that it's all cat's blood. Also, they don't test the Filomena window hair and blood samples, which is nuts. Everything focuses like a laser on Knox and Sollecito to the exclusion of all other possibilities.

They didn't even wait to arrest Raf to go to his house or they went immediately after.

I am always getting this wrong but I think they went to Patrick's pretty much straight after Amanda's first statement - so in the small hours (3 a.m. or so?) and the case chiuso press conference was pretty early I think. I was joking about them being huddled outside. All I meant was that the accounts suggest (but do not deal with it specifically) that he was hustled off in the middle of the night, not that wife and kid were booted out. After all, if they sealed off his place like they did Le Chic, then it would have been out of bounds for months, right? And I can't believe we would not know about that.

At 6.30am on Tuesday, November 6, the bell to his fourth-floor flat in the town buzzed insistently and a woman's voice outside demanded he opened the door. He had barely had time to do so when the woman, assisted by, Patrick estimates, 15 to 20 others, barged their way in.


The key is at the time of arrest for me. I want the defense to demand an answer to why nothing then and what buckled and correct meant to them before Amanda signed.

These were the same cops that accessed Nappy's ex's database and then flattened the tires of his physiologist. They are a sophisticated group

 

[Grinder]

Dan do you have this:

However, he had sent her a text message – at a few minutes past 8 pm on November 1, 2007 – telling her that there was no need for her to go to work that evening (see statements by Patrick Lumumba, hearing of April 3, 2009, pp. 160 and following).

 

[Diocletus]

Patrick arrested at 6:30 am per Hoyle's article.

So, let's say they have the three DNA reference samples collected by 8:00. Two hour drive to Rome = 10:00. Some samples are already being processed.

Reference samples are logged and on the extraction plate by lunchtime (Note to self: all of these early samples were extracted on the same plate, no. 260. How can that be?). I don't know how long this stuff takes, but it seems to me that I've seen a reference to 4 hrs. to complete the process and spit out an egram.

So, Stefanoni collates her first batch of results and calls Mignini late on the evening of 11/6. She tells him that they nailed the wrong guys. Whoops. Now need to release innocent people from jail find a fourth guy to put in jail.

Now to find out what time the Caso Chiuso show started. And when they found the knife at Sollecito's place.

 

[Grinder]

Nov. 7th Seattle PI
Amanda Knox -- the University of Washington student implicated in a shocking slaying in Perugia, Italy -- reportedly has told investigators she was in the next room as her female roommate cried for help and her throat was cut.

"The only thing I can say is that at a certain point I heard Meredith screaming," Knox told authorities, according to leaked police reports obtained by Corriere Della Sera, a Milan newspaper.

Why would the police make the buckled statement after they had figured out that PL had no involvement. The fourth suspect didn't come out for another week IIRC.

 

[Diocletus]

Stampa 11/7: In that room, were found in it dozens of tracks. CSU is now trying fingerprints and DNA profiles compatible with those of the suspects. Matter of hours.
Republicca 11/8: And the first results of the findings of the forensic confirm the assumptions made by the prosecutor in Perugia for the murder of Meredith Kercher: "In the scene there were two of them and Raffaele Sollecito."

Meanwhile, investigators are trying to figure out if a fourth person has helped the kids to clean the house.

Standard 11/9: Reports in the Italian press also suggest that 120 diffent pieces of DNA evidence have been retrieved from the crime scene where Meredith was murdered. However it is believed none of this DNA evidence belongs to Lumumba "Patrick" Diya, the bar manager who Amanda Knox has suggested was the one who cut Meredith's throat.


Note, that what they are omitting from the leak to the standard is the fact that they knew that some other guy, not Patrick, was the rapist.

 

[Diocletus]

Why would the police make the buckled statement after they had figured out that PL had no involvement.

When was this statement made, and who made it?

 

[Grinder]

When was this statement made, and who made it?

The statement was made after PL's arrest. IIRC it was the afternoon of the 6th but maybe the 7th.

Here a paste from a story on the 8th.

The apparent breakthrough in the case came after four days of intensive investigation following the discovery last Friday of Miss Kercher’s body in her bedroom at the house she shared with Knox. Sources said they believed Lumumba, a married father of one, wielded the pen knife which was used to kill her. Police intend to charge all three with murder and with participation in an act of sexual violence.

They believe Meredith struggled as she was forced to have sex with at least one of the men. Arturo de Felice, head of police in Perugia, said: “The motive appears sexual but Meredith was morally innocent. She was the victim, not a participant.” He added that the killing had not been premeditated. “Meredith was studying at university and there was a university atmosphere, free and open,” he said.

“Lots of people came and went through her house and she was unfortunately at the crossroads when this group came together.” De Felice also confirmed the contents of the statements that had been published in Italian newspapers but refused to add any further detail.

He said that the three had continually changed their stories and that things “just didn’t add up.” He explained:”Initially the American gave a version of events which we knew was not correct. “She buckled and made an admission of facts that we knew were correct and from that we were able to bring them in.
“We have not interviewed them today, they are in prison in solitary confinement reflecting on what they have told us. “The investigation is continuing and we are gathering evidence still which will be presented at a hearing on Thursday.” Knox’s mother, Edda Mellas, travelled to Perugia yesterday, where she had been planning to offer her daughter support after her roommate’s horrific murder.

 

[Diocletus]

He might have had shoes in a cupboard with specks of blood on them, or a jacket likewise. Or he might have transferred fibres (not that it would matter because Stefanoni doesn't do fibre analysis). Or there might have been a knife in the kitchen drawer with presumed haematic substance on it.

Well, they wouldn't have looked for a knife at the time of arrest if they thought they already had a knife. And they did have a knife: the one from Sollecito's pocket.

However, they didn't test it until 11/12 or 11/13, and it was tested at the same time as the Kitchen Knife.

But I guess that at some point they figured out that the pocket knife was too small, and therefore not THE knife.

 

[Grinder]

Well, they wouldn't have looked for a knife at the time of arrest if they thought they already had a knife. And they did have a knife: the one from Sollecito's pocket.

However, they didn't test it until 11/12 or 11/13, and it was tested at the same time as the Kitchen Knife.

But I guess that at some point they figured out that the pocket knife was too small, and therefore not THE knife.

It was widely reported that the knife was a penknife at the beginning. The defense experts showed that a bruise on Meredith's neck looked like one that a hilt would produce which meant a much smaller knife than the kitchen knife. He went on to say that the wound could easily have been produced by a small knife that was moved back and forth.

The police at the time of PL's arrest didn't have Raf as a participant just someone covering for AK. They thought PL was the perp and that AK was just covering rather than a participant.

Police would look for evidence including a knife even if they had a knife. It wasn't like it was covered in blood and found outside the cottage.

ETA - A few years ago he met a young Polish woman, called Ola, who was studying Italian at the University for Foreigners. When they began a relationship she decided to stay in the country, working as a waitress in a popular restaurant.
The couple now have a one-year-old son, Davide, and live in a seventh-floor apartment in a modern block.
Yesterday the door to the home remained firmly closed, although it was thought Ola, who spends a lot of time in Poland, was at home.


I think we would know if the place was sealed by the police.

 

[RWVBWL]

Where's the link?

The statement was made after PL's arrest. IIRC it was the afternoon of the 6th but maybe the 7th.

Here a paste from a story on the 8th.[/I]

Hey Grinder,
Why don't you include a link so that others may read of your source?
Especially since you always bitch+moan that the crime novel authors don't do so...

Just my opinon, old guy,
carry on...
RW

 

[RWVBWL]

The Lumumba reference sample was seized on 11/6 pursuant to a "decree of corporal inspection." Stefanoni has suppressed the corresponding extraction and amplification records, but it is listed on the Qubit records for that day (11/6).

Hey Diocletus,
I've been reading of this case for years,
and yet the input you've recently added has not been discussed in such detail before, IMHO.
Well done, keep it up!
RW

 

[Grinder]

Hey Grinder,
Why don't you include a link so that others may read of your source?
Especially since you always bitch+moan that the crime novel authors don't do so...

Just my opinon, old guy,
carry on...
RW

Here big fella -

Hey Diocletus,
I've been reading of this case for years,
and yet the input you've recently added has not been discussed in such detail before, IMHO.
Well done, keep it up!
RW

Where are his sources

 

[Diocletus]

The police at the time of PL's arrest didn't have Raf as a participant just someone covering for AK. They thought PL was the perp and that AK was just covering rather than a participant.

I don't know. It's a quandary. What I do know is that they knew before they went to Matteini that Uomo 2 was the rapist, not Sollecito or Lumumba.

When did they match Sollecito's shoes?

 

[Grinder]

I don't know. It's a quandary. What I do know is that they knew before they went to Matteini that Uomo 2 was the rapist, not Sollecito or Lumumba.

When did they match Sollecito's shoes?

Haha trick question. They never matched them because they didn't match.

I think they surmised that they were his prints shortly after arrest. Since we don't really know what went on behind closed doors in the police station we can't know for sure. I seem to remember that the CSI had them analyzed quickly and incorrectly.

ETA - diving into the details of when each and every piece of evidence was tested and how the results came out may be very interesting in some ways, it doesn't deal with the questions involving PL's arrest and how they handled his residence. I believe we have been told that the police went to Raf's while he still was being interviewed and they checked his computer and more. They collected his knives shortly thereafter and in between no one could access his studio.

Why wouldn't they collect and seal at PL's apartment? This has nothing to do with later testing. Why would the police chief keep PL as a suspect if he already was sure it was someone else?

I pretty sure when the press conference was held, the test results hadn't come in.

 

[Diocletus]

I see these possibilities for why they didn't ransack Lumumba's place:

1. They weren't allowed to yet (warrant requirements and all of that)
2. They had no reason to (they didn't think evidence would be there)
3. They didn't need to (they had the evidence they thought they needed)

 

[Grinder]

I see these possibilities for why they didn't ransack Lumumba's place:

1. They weren't allowed to yet (warrant requirements and all of that)
2. They had no reason to (they didn't think evidence would be there)
3. They didn't need to (they had the evidence they thought they needed)

1. Can't believe they weren't allowed (see Raf's flat) and if they needed more than the arrest approval they could have at least sealed it.

2. How in the world from Amanda's statement and the text messages could they know or even think there would be no evidence. No blood or DNA on the shoes or clothes? No knife? No emails or other computer info?

3. What evidence did they have? Amanda's statement and Patrick's text (Anglo's theory) and perhaps some phone activity? What police would not look for additional evidence even if they had some?

We know that they had next to nothing. This is the morning of the 6th. They sure as hell didn't have the knife that matched the bloody outline.

The best guess is that they were incompetent or that we just don't know what they took.

I firmly believe that they used techniques to get Amanda to tell what they wanted. They were the ones that wrote the "confession" and they were the ones that introduced PL into the equation.

No matter what, something is fishy about the lack of investigation at Patrick's flat. They were able to search his club and close it. Anybody have a date for that? I can't believe the police would worry about the rules here but even if they did I can't imagine a judge wouldn't sign a search warrant.

Could Mignini issue the necessary arrest and search warrants?

 

[Dan O.]

Mignini did issue the order for Patrick's arrest. That is documented in Matteini.