The Mormons' Challenge

[bruto]

Well-phrased, exhaustive rebuttal! I'm guessing you win a lot of arguments. ...

About Janadele one can never, of course, be entirely sure, but I must point out that the statement being rebutted was pretty basic, and it seems, pretty basically wrong, since anti-predestinarianism is one of the most important and controversial aspects of Mormonism. How complete a rebuttal does one need? If I said "the [name sect here] God comes down to earth and cuts sinners' heads off with a rusty saw," how much rebuttal would a person of that sect need? I think "No" just about covers it.

 

[Dinwar]

Do you know of any more sophisticated Mormon theological answers?

You and I have been down this road so many times that it's becoming absurd. Only dishonesty on your part can explain your continued refusal to understand that my stance on this issue is that the person debating the theists is obligated to know the theology. As someone with no interest in debating them, it is not my obligation. The part that's in funny formatting is the part you insist on ignoring.

If you rely on their ignorance, verbal trickery, etc., you are engaging in "Gotcha!" type arguments. Those are rhetorically week and actually harm your position, because it shows that you are not honest, which re-enforces the view that atheists are immoral. I'm not terribly certain why it is so difficult for you to accept that my argument is that people who wish to engage others in debate should do so honestly.

I'm going to avoid egnaging you on this topic from now on. I have stated my views as clearly as it is possible to do so; I firmly believe that you are merely trying to troll me.

 

[tsig]

FAIR tells us that in the case of steel, ect. that somehow Joe got the words wrong and didn't really mean steel, for the BoA they say that Joe used a different set of writings in spite of the fact that the facsimiles in the BoA are the same as Egyptian funerary texts and they just handwave away the rock in a hat. Do you know of any more sophisticated Mormon theological answers?

You and I have been down this road so many times that it's becoming absurd. Only dishonesty on your part can explain your continued refusal to understand that my stance on this issue is that the person debating the theists is obligated to know the theology. As someone with no interest in debating them, it is not my obligation. The part that's in funny formatting is the part you insist on ignoring.

If you rely on their ignorance, verbal trickery, etc., you are engaging in "Gotcha!" type arguments. Those are rhetorically week and actually harm your position, because it shows that you are not honest, which re-enforces the view that atheists are immoral. I'm not terribly certain why it is so difficult for you to accept that my argument is that people who wish to engage others in debate should do so honestly.

I'm going to avoid egnaging you on this topic from now on. I have stated my views as clearly as it is possible to do so; I firmly believe that you are merely trying to troll me.

Why did you ignore the hilited part of my post? Accusing others of using verbal trickery, rhetoric and trolling is hardly an honest debate tactic.

I gave you the answers that the Mormon aplogists use and I expected that if you knew of anything better you'd tell me but since you decided to attack me personally instead I have to conclude that you've got nothing but righteous indignation.

ETA: If you don't know the theological arguments how can you be so sure they actually exist.

 

[Crossbow]

Judah is but one of the twelve tribes of Israel, now scattered throughout the world. I am of Ephraim. LDS Missionaries are searching out Israel. However we are all children of our Heavenly Father and those who repent and choose the right are adopted through baptism.

Well, it should not matter what tribe you are associated with because all of the tribe will be of the same religion, specifically the Jewish religion.

And since you are not Jewish, then I fail to see how you could possibly be a member of such a tribe.

 

[Janadele]

Few people know their linage... religious practice or belief is not the determining factor.

 

[Dinwar]

Few people know their linage... religious practice or belief is not the determining factor.

What about the people who do? Some of us have quite clear records, after all. Or is this a case of "Anything that disagrees with me is wrong"?

 

[strummer]

What about the people who do? Some of us have quite clear records, after all. Or is this a case of "Anything that disagrees with me is wrong"?

I think it's if the rock in the hat disagrees with you

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Cleon]

Few people know their linage... religious practice or belief is not the determining factor.

Actually, it's easy to find out your lineage. Not only are there ample historical records, but now we have DNA testing as well.

Of course, DNA testing tends not to support Mormon beliefs, so there's that.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Few people know their linage... religious practice or belief is not the determining factor.

Beware, you are addressing a true believer.

 

[Dinwar]

I think it's if the rock in the hat disagrees with you

Blame it on the Guinness, but I now have a very strong urge to purchase top hats and place them on random bits of lithology on my project stie.

 

[kblood]

Only if you have enough beer to quench that burning bosom.

And you do not? Silly person you.

 

[kblood]

Please post some of your actual NEGATIVE interactions with the Mormons. That should make a somewhat understandable point in my oppinion. Thats the logic I went to the church for.

Thats the logic I base my life upon. Following the light of hope and love, into a parallel universe with penguins and Unicorns!

As an old computer game was named... "WHO DARES, WINS!".

 

[pakeha]

Actually, it's easy to find out your lineage. Not only are there ample historical records, but now we have DNA testing as well.

Of course, DNA testing tends not to support Mormon beliefs, so there's that.

Details.
If outright fraud and dishonesty don't daunt a Mormon, why should DNA?

 

[Slimething]

About Janadele one can never, of course, be entirely sure, but I must point out that the statement being rebutted was pretty basic, and it seems, pretty basically wrong, since anti-predestinarianism is one of the most important and controversial aspects of Mormonism. How complete a rebuttal does one need? If I said "the [name sect here] God comes down to earth and cuts sinners' heads off with a rusty saw," how much rebuttal would a person of that sect need? I think "No" just about covers it.

Your example (a prediction) does not rise to the head-exploding illogic of Janadele's statement on pre-destination (a basis of faith) that Garrette questioned. Anyway, a brush-off "no, not at all" is a non-answer. I was pointing out that it is such a ridiculous reply that most unbiased onlookers may reflexively retch.

I accept your point that many illogical claims posited by the religious can only be regarded as "just so" statements. However, it's fair to question those to see how such believers reply. In this case, Janadele loses big time.

 

[Craig4]

For the record, the preparation the Mormons give to the kids they send on missions sucks. I was on the S-Bahn (commuter rail in Germany) last night and met two Mormon missionary kids (probably 18 or 19 but one looked like hes as 12). It was only me getting to my stop that saved them. Granted, I got them off script early and attacked in detail the Book of Abraham (though after the last thread I am sorry we didn't get to barley in pre Colombian America). When I say attacked, I meant I asked them to tell me what in the BoA can be tied to Abraham and if they were aware of what Egyptologists say the book says. Nothing coherent came back. One did tell me about the importance of faith but that was as articulate as it got.

You'd think in the age of Google that the Mormons would prepare these kids with a party line on the BoA. While I'm sure they found it unpleasant, I sincerely hope they start to look into the history of their beliefs and come to the conclusion that their church is perpetrating a lie.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Well done, Craig!

 

[pakeha]

...You'd think in the age of Google that the Mormons would prepare these kids with a party line on the BoA. While I'm sure they found it unpleasant, I sincerely hope they start to look into the history of their beliefs and come to the conclusion that their church is perpetrating a lie.

Mormons accosting people on the S-Bahn?
Anyway.
We've seen the party line here at the JREF, IIRC.
It's basically that whatever the origins of the BoA, it contains spiritual truths.
Of value.

 

[RandFan]

For the record, the preparation the Mormons give to the kids they send on missions sucks. I was on the S-Bahn (commuter rail in Germany) last night and met two Mormon missionary kids (probably 18 or 19 but one looked like hes as 12). It was only me getting to my stop that saved them. Granted, I got them off script early and attacked in detail the Book of Abraham (though after the last thread I am sorry we didn't get to barley in pre Colombian America). When I say attacked, I meant I asked them to tell me what in the BoA can be tied to Abraham and if they were aware of what Egyptologists say the book says. Nothing coherent came back. One did tell me about the importance of faith but that was as articulate as it got.

You'd think in the age of Google that the Mormons would prepare these kids with a party line on the BoA. While I'm sure they found it unpleasant, I sincerely hope they start to look into the history of their beliefs and come to the conclusion that their church is perpetrating a lie.

I served a Mormon mission and you are correct.

 

[kblood]

Technically, Mormons don't believe in a hell. There's several levels of heavens. Unbelievers get the slums.

I see. You meant some Smith person other than John Smith. I'm not sure you have an average mind, so I try to ask simple, pertinent questions. "Who?" is an example.

You have now established that you meant Joseph Smith and not John Smith.

Do you have some other, less obvious point?

What I get from my wife, an ex Mormon, is there technically isn't a hell but 3 degrees of glory. The three degrees of glory is their versions of heaven.

You tryin' to be funny, Joseph Jones?

So many good points here

Also the Mormons have the greatest collection of family trees in the whole world. They go to all the other religions and ask for help to do so. They have to, since this information is stored in their churches...

 

[Craig4]

Mormons accosting people on the S-Bahn?
Anyway.
We've seen the party line here at the JREF, IIRC.
It's basically that whatever the origins of the BoA, it contains spiritual truths.
Of value.

Oh, I know what they say about it. I was more interested in destroying their faith in their religion.

I've seen them a lot lately. There were a couple at one of the fests a couple weeks ago too. I hope they don't decide to try talk to people at any of the wine fests or the upcoming Volksfest. Telling someone in leather pants that they should join their church and not drink beer may not be the best idea ever.