The Mormons' Challenge

[Wolrab]

originally posted by Olowkow:
Or, The Book of Mormon Missionary Positions.

Scroll down, or use arrow keys.

The Kama Sutra has a lot more positions.

 

[Janadele]

Ummm, ...

I do not know if you have considered this fact or not, but if not:

Are you aware that Jesus and all of the original his followers of Jesus were Jewish?

Therefore, I expect that one would have to be Jewish (among other things) in order to be a true follower of Jesus.

Judah is but one of the twelve tribes of Israel, now scattered throughout the world. I am of Ephraim. LDS Missionaries are searching out Israel. However we are all children of our Heavenly Father and those who repent and choose the right are adopted through baptism.

 

[Wolrab]

Judah is but one of the twelve tribes of Israel, now scattered throughout the world. I am of Ephraim. LDS Missionaries are searching out Israel. However we are all children of our Heavenly Father and those who repent and choose the right are adopted through baptism.

Unless you are dead and baptized by some teenager in a pool or some foolish descendent converts and you are automatically declared Mormon. No shame.

 

[dafydd]

Ask the missionaries to sit down and enjoy the Mormon episode of South Park.

Or the Mormon visit in the series 'Mrs. Brown's Boys'. Hilarious.

 

[tsig]

Judah is but one of the twelve tribes of Israel, now scattered throughout the world. I am of Ephraim. LDS Missionaries are searching out Israel. However we are all children of our Heavenly Father and those who repent and choose the right are adopted through baptism.

I think I'll wait til I die to convert.

 

[Dinwar]

Do not think mere mortals who follow Lucifer can "destroy the beliefs" nor "humiliate" those who are true followers of Jesus Christ. It is not their concern where you spend eternity. It is the elect of God, whose immortal Spirit recognises His message, who the dedicated LDS Missionaries are seeking.

Came down and told you that, did He? Given that these were His words, I imagine they left quite an impression on you--could you give us a transcript of that conversation?

More seriously, from a theological perspective the missionaries are filtering God's word through a mortal lense--even if we assume that God is perfect, the missionaries aren't. Thus, they can make errors. Imagine a third grader trying to teach a Calculus class. The information is good, it's valid, it's important--but the teacher can't understand it and so will necessarily screw it up royally. Similarly, even if we assume God exists and that God's favored race is the LDS and that God gave the missionaries His word, we STILL must evaluate everything they say critically. And if they don't even understand their own religion, they will fail.

It is in YOUR best interest to educate the missionaries to the point wherer people like us can't stump them (and to be clear I'm not talking about "Gotcha!!" moments like people here are advocating--I'm talking about the people who can demonstrate that the LDS is wrong even to well-educated members of the church). YOU are sending third graders to teach us post-graduate lessons in mathematics. That indicates either a completely lack of understanding of how to talk to people on the part of your church, or something a bit more nepharious.

 

[tsig]

Came down and told you that, did He? Given that these were His words, I imagine they left quite an impression on you--could you give us a transcript of that conversation?

More seriously, from a theological perspective the missionaries are filtering God's word through a mortal lense--even if we assume that God is perfect, the missionaries aren't. Thus, they can make errors. Imagine a third grader trying to teach a Calculus class. The information is good, it's valid, it's important--but the teacher can't understand it and so will necessarily screw it up royally. Similarly, even if we assume God exists and that God's favored race is the LDS and that God gave the missionaries His word, we STILL must evaluate everything they say critically. And if they don't even understand their own religion, they will fail.

It is in YOUR best interest to educate the missionaries to the point wherer people like us can't stump them (and to be clear I'm not talking about "Gotcha!!" moments like people here are advocating--I'm talking about the people who can demonstrate that the LDS is wrong even to well-educated members of the church). YOU are sending third graders to teach us post-graduate lessons in mathematics. That indicates either a completely lack of understanding of how to talk to people on the part of your church, or something a bit more nepharious.

Can you tell us some of those above "Gotcha!!" moments that you'd use to demonstrate that the LDS is wrong even to well-educated members of the church?

 

[Dinwar]

Can you tell us some of those above "Gotcha!!" moments that you'd use to demonstrate that the LDS is wrong even to well-educated members of the church?

I don't believe in using "Gotcha!!" moments at all. A "Gotcha!!" moment is either verbal trickery, or relies upon the lack of education of the person you're talking to. It's cheap rhetoric, not a substantive or even real criticism of an idea. Up-thread someone described inviting JWs and LDSs to his home to discuss theology, and demonstrating that it's deeply flawed. THAT is substantive criticism based on a deep understanding of the issues. ANTPogo is another great example of this--ANTPogo has demonstrated time and time again a deep understanding of the issues, and has leveled substantive criticisms based on that. People who think they can spring one or two facts on the JWs or LDSs and then laugh at how stupid the idiot theists are are advocating "Gotcha!!" moments.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Oh, two other nuggets. God told them not to drink tea or coffee, but didn't have the foresight to mention Coke, which they typically guzzle by the bucketload...

I think the permission to drink Coke is pretty recent. When I was a kid in Arizona (Mesa, Arizona, used to have the biggest tabernacle in the country after Salt Lake), none of my friends were allowed to drink Cokes (although I have some dim memory that if you converted to Mormonism you were allowed to continue drinking Cokes.) At some point the President of the church decided that Cokes were okay. It's my understanding that, sort of like the Pope for Catholics, the President of the Mormon Church has the authority to "interpret" the teachings. Again, if I recall correctly, that's why the church reversed its teachings about black people - the President read the handwriting on the wall (mixing my holy book metaphors there), figured out that overt racism was over, and...um...changed the story.

...JWs will come back again and again and again no matter how many times you tell them you're not interested.

I've been reliably informed that if you tell them you're Catholic they will leave you alone.

In such instance it is yourself who shows ignorance, bad manners, and who exposes yourself for what you are.

Excuse me? People come into my neighborhood and knock on my door uninvited and I'm being rude to inform them that they are misinformed and I'm not interested? Don't think so.

 

[Empress]

Came down and told you that, did He? Given that these were His words, I imagine they left quite an impression on you--could you give us a transcript of that conversation?

No doubt she's getting that from her Patriarchal Blessing. If so, she should have a written copy of it, but I doubt she'd let us read it. It's my understanding that you can share it, but it's considered sacred so you don't just hand it out willy-nilly. Of course, that also stops the Mormons from noting that everybody's coming from the same tribe or there are other curious similarities. I should add that I've never actually read one, so the "similarities" I mentioned are my own opinion, not something I'm actually aware of.

Janadele would no doubt talk about how wonderful and accurate a Patriarchal Blessing is, but I recall from the LDS thread that she made a snide comment about Pup's wife's Blessing when she shared some of hers. I suspect they're only wonderful and accurate if you're a Mormon that doesn't ask questions.

 

[tsig]

I don't believe in using "Gotcha!!" moments at all. A "Gotcha!!" moment is either verbal trickery, or relies upon the lack of education of the person you're talking to. It's cheap rhetoric, not a substantive or even real criticism of an idea. Up-thread someone described inviting JWs and LDSs to his home to discuss theology, and demonstrating that it's deeply flawed. THAT is substantive criticism based on a deep understanding of the issues. ANTPogo is another great example of this--ANTPogo has demonstrated time and time again a deep understanding of the issues, and has leveled substantive criticisms based on that. People who think they can spring one or two facts on the JWs or LDSs and then laugh at how stupid the idiot theists are are advocating "Gotcha!!" moments.

Would asking why the BoM mentions steel, horses and barley in America be a Gotcha question? How about the fact that the Book of Abraham is really some Egyptian funerary writings or that Joe Smith never used the Golden Plates to translate the BoM preferring his rock in a hat method instead, the same method he used to con fellow gold diggers?

ETA: Or the fact that from Joe Smith on all the Mormon prophets preached and lived the commandment of plural marriage, claiming that it was the highest commandment of all til faced with the dissolution of the church god told his mouthpiece to put that one on the back burner.

 

[Quad4_72]

Technically, Mormons don't believe in a hell. There's several levels of heavens. Unbelievers get the slums.

Which is another glaring inconsistency between the Bible and The Book of Mormon, two books which Mormons claim they believe.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I am of Ephraim.

Just out of curiosity, how far back can you trace your family tree? Or is there some LDS equivalent to the sorting hat which allocates you to a tribe?

 

[welshdean]

Just out of curiosity, how far back can you trace your family tree? Or is there some LDS equivalent to the sorting hat which allocates you to a tribe?

I can trace mine all the way back to Griffendor ... Oh wait, I see what you mean now.

How can anyone seriously take this nonsense on face value? Started by a conman, visitations from god and moroni, ocean going vessels 2500 years ago, gold plates (not that he was gonna show 'em mind, and all written in 16th century english in the 19th century. Come on, bloody pull yourselves together.

 

[Empress]

I can trace mine all the way back to Griffendor ... Oh wait, I see what you mean now.

How can anyone seriously take this nonsense on face value? Started by a conman, visitations from god and moroni, ocean going vessels 2500 years ago, gold plates (not that he was gonna show 'em mind, and all written in 16th century english in the 19th century. Come on, bloody pull yourselves together.

They just can't. My mother actually believes that nonsense that JS used as an excuse when he stole the Freemason rituals for his church. The Masons had corrupted the original rituals. Yeah. Until he was a Mason, the church only had the common rituals of foot-washing, anointing with oil, etc. The minute he's a Mason and sees their rituals, suddenly the church changes and all of that is incorporated. I pointed out to her that from my perspective it seemed a bit more reasonable to assume that JS underwent the rituals after becoming a Mason, snagged them for his own use, and cooked up a ridiculous story to cover it. She was stunned that I didn't automatically accept JS's BS, even though she was well aware I had been an atheist since my young teens. The idea of questioning anything is practically anathema. Most of them just don't. And since they're surrounded by believers, that reinforce their belief in the nonsense.

I just double-checked with my mother and finding out what tribe of Israel you're from is a standard part of a Patriarchal Blessing. She's also from the tribe of Ephraim, and says that most people living today are from that tribe. So yeah, that's probably something that they just throw in there for everyone, unless they're known to be a Jew or something. I figured it was something they didn't talk about, so they wouldn't notice that much of the Blessing was more or less the same for everyone, but apparently the fact that everyone is from the same tribe doesn't faze the True Saints. Just reinforces their beliefs. Somehow.

 

[Dinwar]

Would asking why the BoM mentions steel, horses and barley in America be a Gotcha question? How about the fact that the Book of Abraham is really some Egyptian funerary writings or that Joe Smith never used the Golden Plates to translate the BoM preferring his rock in a hat method instead, the same method he used to con fellow gold diggers?

I can never tell if you're being serious or being a dick.

They're "Gotcha!" questions because you are relying on the ignorance of the person you're talking to. There is a simple test: Do you know what Mormon theology says on these issues? If you don't, they are "Gotcha!!" questions and therefore are worthless.

 

[Loss Leader]

My son asked me for help in finding the best counter-arguments to Mormonism, and the best reasons to be atheist.

It's not a balancing test. If their book is true, they should be able to provide evidence. Otherwise, the null hypothesis should be the default. If not, anybody could believe anything.


And I believe in 1978, God changed his mind about black people.
- Book of Mormon

 

[Slimething]

Seriously???

No Garrette, not at all.

Well-phrased, exhaustive rebuttal! I'm guessing you win a lot of arguments.

(When I read it, I distinctly saw someone typing it out while having their hands on their ears, although that is physically impossible.)

Technically, Mormons don't believe in a hell. There's several levels of heavens. Unbelievers get the slums.

Please, please, tell me the "missionaries" won't be visiting my slum digs! Please!

 

[Shalamar]

Well-phrased, exhaustive rebuttal! I'm guessing you win a lot of arguments.

(When I read it, I distinctly saw someone typing it out while having their hands on their ears, although that is physically impossible.)




Please, please, tell me the "missionaries" won't be visiting my slum digs! Please!

They probably will 'Why don't you believe? You can move up to a better level of heaven if you only follow the one true path!'

Of course, the true^tm mormons get to be gods of their own worlds. Except for women. They only get to have babies for eternity.

 

[tsig]

I can never tell if you're being serious or being a dick.

They're "Gotcha!" questions because you are relying on the ignorance of the person you're talking to. There is a simple test: Do you know what Mormon theology says on these issues? If you don't, they are "Gotcha!!" questions and therefore are worthless.

FAIR tells us that in the case of steel, ect. that somehow Joe got the words wrong and didn't really mean steel, for the BoA they say that Joe used a different set of writings in spite of the fact that the facsimiles in the BoA are the same as Egyptian funerary texts and they just handwave away the rock in a hat.

Do you know of any more sophisticated Mormon theological answers?