New TWA Flight 800 film coming out

[Jetblast]

What missile was it? who developed and tested it?
Which company built it?
Who provided the Fire Control and launch system?

A Missile doesn't just appear ready formed out of thin air. Thousands of people are involved in developing, testing and manufacturing missiles.
When and where was the sub fitted with the launch system and fire control for this missile? Hundreds of people would have worked on just modifying the sub.

You people need to figure-out if you are telling us the Navy lies and keeps secrets for national security or openly tells of its cutting edge experimental missiles?

 

[Jetblast]

Question: What percentage of the witnesses saw missiles vs those that did not?

Go to the TWA 800 ARAP site. I think over 270 people saw a missile. They were all ignored.

 

[LSSBB]

JetBlast, who was the Captain you are blaming for this?

 

[Hans]

Go to the TWA 800 ARAP site. I think over 270 people saw a missile. They were all ignored.

What I found was 670 witnesses interviewed of which 21 reported something rising, missile, etc or 3.13% of the witnesses.

Why are the other 96~% wrong?

 

[CORed]

You completely and totally avoided answering his question, yet you have the hubris to say "[We're] not going to win this one." Why don't you just tell us what the coroner said and prove us wrong?

Most likely because he made the whole thing about the coroner up (or read it on a mutbar conspiracy site that made it up). He's doing a spectacularly bad job of trying to bluster his way out of admitting that he doesn't really know **** about any of his claims.

 

[matt.tansy]

What I found was 670 witnesses interviewed of which 21 reported something rising, missile, etc or 3.13% of the witnesses.

Why are the other 96~% wrong?

The NTSB report tallied 258 streak of light eyewitnesses.

 

[Jetblast]

You have a source for that claim of course. Then please explain how these fragments entered the victims without penetrating the skin of the aircraft.

It's on the ARAP TWA800 site. Google: Sephton vs FBI.


The FBI tested and documented the pellets as containing the exact metals in US warhead shrapnel. The Long Island Coroner documented this.


I'm not the one who should be answering the questions here.

Are you suggesting blast injuries can decrease from severe to non-existent within a foot and a half?

You are doubting something that was witnessed by the Long Island Coroner. Though I'm glad to you correctly detect the unusualness of it. That wouldn't happen to the extent it did with a center tank explosion.

If a body was close enough to a missile explosion to get badly burnt then it would have a thousand fragments in it.

The body could have been ripped by extreme blast forces or missile exhaust blast. The burned bodies could have stayed after the nose was blasted off and burned in the fuel. The relatively unburned body next to them could have been ejected by extreme forces from the blast. Sure there could be a simple explanation for the ejection like no seatbelt but the Coroner found enough of a pattern to detect an anomalous situation. Forces went through the cabin other than those from a fuel explosion.

PETN missile exhaust residue doesn't impress you, eh?

 

[matt.tansy]

Then we should sit you down next to VietNam and National Guard helicopter pilot Fred Meyer. Fred dodged commie ak ak and SAMs during his tour. You see Mr Meyer was actually much more exposed to SAM High-Explosives with much more skin in the game. And don't forget that not only was Meyer actually there and witnessed the shootdown but so did Mr Wire. So I'm glad you have the nerve to correct these people, seeing how you weren't there, but you'll forgive me for taking their word over yours. "Mistaken or exaggerating" about a bridge shaking violently - ya. OK.

I'd love to be there when you correct Meyer on the "star-like" brilliance of the flash he saw when the missile hit Flight 800. By the way, why didn't you mention that flash as part of your expertise?

In his own words:

"That's exactly what it looked like except it was red-orange in color and I saw it in broad daylight and one does not see shooting stars in broad daylight. There was a break - where it stopped - and then for an instant I saw nothing - and then suddenly right there I saw an explosion - high velocity explosion - military ordnance! - looked like flak in the sky - and I've seen a lot of flak - ours and theirs. It was military ordnance! A second and a half to two seconds later - farther to the left but down - I saw a flash once again - high velocity explosion - brilliant white light - like the old fashioned flashbulbs that we used to get one picture out of it and then it was gone - brilliant white light. A second and a half to two seconds after that - farther to the left but even lower - I saw, but I'm not certain, either one or two nearly concentric detonations - da da (sic) - and from those detonations emanated this huge, slowly forming, low velocity explosion fireball." ^Link

His account happened far too quickly from what we know of the radar data. He is missing about 20~25 seconds.

 

[Jetblast]

The NTSB report tallied 258 streak of light eyewitnesses.

Watch the 'Silenced' Documentary and this new one.


There's a few witnesses who described a missile strike in detail. They said the FBI version wasn't anything like what they witnessed.

 

[matt.tansy]

It's on the ARAP TWA800 site. Google: Sephton vs FBI.


The FBI tested and documented the pellets as containing the exact metals in US warhead shrapnel. The Long Island Coroner documented this.


I'm not the one who should be answering the questions here.

Here is an extract from the first hit:

It would take more than a year and a change in administration before the FBI declassified a meaningful forensics report. The report, an analysis of spectral data recorded by the Brookhaven National Lab, revealed that 20 pieces of 0.2-inch-diameter-round shrapnel had been removed from at least one of the victims’ bodies.

The report noted that these pellets had been tested because of their “dissimilarity in appearance with TWA 800 debris.” As to their source, the analysts could only conclude “unknown origin.” For whatever reason, the FBI still refused to reveal whether other victims were similarly injured.^Link

Doesn't help much, does it?

PETN missile exhaust residue doesn't impress you, eh?

Nope. The entire aircraft could be dripping with PETN residue but unless the thousands of expected high velocity penetrations that must accompany an anti-aircraft warhead detonation are also present I cannot conclude it was hit by an anti-aircraft missile.

 

[Sideroxylon]

That sort of thing seems to be endemic among CTers. Basically, they seem to think eyewitness testimony is inerrant, so they invent a scenario, no matter how absurd, that covers all the descriptions.

I mean, three missiles? And nobody has owned up, and no other evidence, in all the intervening years?

I am a keen watcher of the Mayday (Air Crash Investigation) series and there are two or three examples of how witnesses get things quite wrong, describing events or sequences that the physical evidence contradicts. I may recall specific details and post.

 

[Hans]

The NTSB report tallied 258 streak of light eyewitnesses.

Matt do you know how many were up and how many were down?

 

[matt.tansy]

Matt do you know how many were up and how many were down?

All either said up or horizontal, a few said it ascended then descended. The big discrepancy is the direction the streak traveled.

The report and appendixes are here: https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/summary/AAR0003.html

The witness info starts on pdf page 229.

Most of the FBI interviews of the eyewitness can be found here: http://twa800.com/witnesscd/witnesscd.htm

 

[Andy_Ross]

Then we should sit you down next to VietNam and National Guard helicopter pilot Fred Meyer. Fred dodged commie ak ak and SAMs during his tour. You see Mr Meyer was actually much more exposed to SAM High-Explosives with much more skin in the game. And don't forget that not only was Meyer actually there and witnessed the shootdown but so did Mr Wire. So I'm glad you have the nerve to correct these people, seeing how you weren't there, but you'll forgive me for taking their word over yours. "Mistaken or exaggerating" about a bridge shaking violently - ya. OK.

I'd love to be there when you correct Meyer on the "star-like" brilliance of the flash he saw when the missile hit Flight 800. By the way, why didn't you mention that flash as part of your expertise?

I have had plenty of 'skin in the game' I have been on the recieving end of 500lb bombs attempting to sink my ship, been the target of Exocet Missiles and participated in attempts to save ships and the lives of their crews hit by bombs and missiles.
I am quite familiar with the effects of a 500 lb bomg exploding and destroying a warship at close quarters. Don't tell me I don't know the effects of an explosion at a much closer range than your worker on a bridge.
I know the sound, smell and glow of a missile launch and the flash of a missile hit.

I would be quite happy to talk to your man on a bridge.

 

[akama1]

It's on Epix. You can get a free 14 day trial with them. Only about 2~3 minutes is about the Mach 4 claim. As I mentioned earlier the Mach 4 radar claim was presented to two medical examiners, who sat there himming and hawing and wondering why in the hell is this guy asking us about explosive ejecta and not an explosives expert? The rest is cherry-picked eyewitness accounts without critical examination and ambushing the few investigators who agreed to be interviewed. And some bizarre life story stuff about Stalcup that really didn't belong in a documentary about a plane crash.

Oh, and some bizarre explosive experiment that proved some minor point that anybody who ever watched an episode of the Mythbusters already knew what the outcome would be.

Thanks for the recap Matt

So nothing of substance at all. I'm guessing the NSIB investigators touted by the doco where the ones ambushed and cherrypicked like evolutionists interviewed by creationists.

 

[catsmate]

What missile was it? who developed and tested it?
Which company built it?
Who provided the Fire Control and launch system?

A Missile doesn't just appear ready formed out of thin air. Thousands of people are involved in developing, testing and manufacturing missiles.
When and where was the sub fitted with the launch system and fire control for this missile? Hundreds of people would have worked on just modifying the sub.

This. Like most CTers JB simply doesn't understand the real world, his view owes more to Bond films than reality.

I found an online explosives calculator. Can anyone make an educated guess how many PSI a shock wave would have to be to shake Mr. Wire's highway bridge?

Eyeballing the map, matt.tansy is right; that bridge is around 10 miles from where the plane went down, not 20. According to the calculator I found, the atom bomb that hit Nagasaki in WWII would have delivered 0.1 PSI to that bridge, and that's measuring the distance from ground level, not 13,000 feet up.

Hmm, tricky. Based on re-reading "Structural Damage from Air Blast" I'd say 0.1psi or less, given the the alleged witness suffered no personal injuries.
Given that the alleged explosion occurred over water the ground wave effect to the bridge would be lessened so the air transmitted wave would be more important.

ETA - distance to bridge measured from the plane crash site, not Nagasaki...

I'm glad to hear it, that'd be a *large* blast.

By that logic anyone is "well-qualified." Sorry, you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You first touted him as a physicist, as if you wanted us to believe such a lofty credential mattered. Now you're backpedaling away from that, having realized that physicists aren't automatically radar operators. But now you have to explain why Stalcup alone is so famously capable of reaching this conclusion where none else have.

You mention only Stalcup. Besides, you're still trying to both have and eat your cake. You can't tell me there exist experts in the "radar field" without admitting it's a field that requires some expertise. And if it requires some expertise, then not everyone automatically is an expert. Experts by definition know something others don't. Therefore you have the burden to prove Stalcup is one of the experts.

It'd also be nice if JB (or any of the CT peddlers) showed that 1996 era civilian ATV RADAR was capable of the level resolution necessary to show the alleged debris.

Nonsense. Radar operation and interpretation is a highly specialized field. And if Stalcup cannot demonstrate his expertise in it, then he does not get to have his uninformed inferences accepted as premises.

Straw man. I never mentioned anything about a CIA animation. They are not "my" CIA.

Most people sooner or later manufacture some pretense not to talk to me, or to anyone else who asks them questions they cannot answer. As I said, you may offer any excuse you want to avoid my posts, but you cannot then say that you have been ignored.

I see JB's resorted to the usual CT nut tactics of assuming absurd competence from pro-CT witnesses, ignoring contradictory facts, strawmannery, fallacious logic, ad homenem attacks, Gish galloping et cetera.

Since you seem to believe anyone can interpret radar information, please explain to me the differences among ATC search radar (primary or secondary), military search radar, and targeting radar. And yes, the differences are relevant to your claims. How, for example, does search radar establish a track such that position and velocity information is available? Does ATC radar do this?

It'll be interesting to see how JB responds to this.

That sort of thing seems to be endemic among CTers. Basically, they seem to think eyewitness testimony is inerrant, so they invent a scenario, no matter how absurd, that covers all the descriptions.

Yep.

 

[catsmate]

The FBI tested and documented the pellets as containing the exact metals in US warhead shrapnel. The Long Island Coroner documented this.

Citation required. Primary sources please, not the ramblings of a conspiracy website.

The body could have been ripped by extreme blast forces or missile exhaust blast. The burned bodies could have stayed after the nose was blasted off and burned in the fuel.

That's utter nonsense. Go and do some research about missile effects before embarrassing yourself further.

PETN missile exhaust residue doesn't impress you, eh?

Given that I obviously know more about the composition of solid rocket fuels (and the Standard missile's warhead) and the uses of PETN than you do, no it doesn't.
Of course all this is irrelevant given the paucity of evidence for the presence of PETN or indeed any explosive.

 

[Andy_Ross]

You people need to figure-out if you are telling us the Navy lies and keeps secrets for national security or openly tells of its cutting edge experimental missiles?

Big Anti Aircraft Missiles are designed in to ships. Ships are built round the major weapon systems, the need a launcher, fire control systems a magazine to store them and handling systems to put them up in to the launchers.
Modern systems have a missile sat in a fixed vertical bin that is both the launcher and magazine.
You can't just put a missile aboard a ship that isn't designed for it. Even if you bolted a launcher on you would still need to install the fire control and radar systems associated with it.
Retro-fitting a new weapon system into an existing ship is a big job, it involves design teams, manufacturers, dockyard teams and the crew of the ship.
You have no idea of the resources involved in designing, testing or fitting a new weapon system into a ship.

 

[tsig]

You simply do not know what you are talking about. The coroner said the burn marks and injuries on the bodies of the victims over the center tank were completely random. Did you know that they did matching of the bodies to their seat locations and injuries? They found that persons with hardly any injuries were seated next to persons who were badly mutilated. Also persons with bad burns were seated next to persons who were unburned. What you say is completely oppositely wrong, and the coroner was on record as saying the injuries did not match other known cases of fuel fires in accidents but just so happened to exactly match the injuries of victims in known missile shootdowns. Did you know that? Did you know there's pictures of this? This is in the new documentary you people are in contempt of by the way.

More showing, less knowing.

 

[tsig]

Let me tell you. You're not going to win this one. Why? Because Flight 800 was shot down and you're backing a fool's Devil's Advocacy position against the obvious.

I feel safe saying that the coroner and investigators' credentials are good enough for me. Also, I have yet to see anyone challenge them on this. At this point we should really asking the qualifications and credentials of internet doubters who have the hubris to ask disingenuous questions in front of the obvious. This is in the new documentary. I suggest you check it out if you have any genuine interest.

What's this, argument from hauteur?