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New TWA Flight 800 film coming out

How is this a "win" thing? Are we not looking for truth in factual evidence? :boggled:

We're just asking you for proof of what you claim. if your proof is that you believe what you read on these sites you quote, so be it. Just say so.

For me. I need a bit more.

Prior Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance. Before he comes here to make a case, he needs to have is facts together and verifiable. It's like walking into the alligator pit with no prior experience or tools - just a healthy dose of arrogance and your finger on the Phone a Friend button.
 
I'll allow you to lead me down this side-track while you ignore my forensic points. However I'll require you to explain why US gov wouldn't be capable of creating an "experimental missile," as the crewman said, that would be compatible with the Wyoming? How do you know they didn't have this capacity?[/quote]

What missile was it? who developed and tested it?
Which company built it?
Who provided the Fire Control and launch system?

A Missile doesn't just appear ready formed out of thin air. Thousands of people are involved in developing, testing and manufacturing missiles.
When and where was the sub fitted with the launch system and fire control for this missile? Hundreds of people would have worked on just modifying the sub.



Also, you ignore the elephant in the room of the captain being relieved of duty upon return to Groton.

Which Captain? give us a name or a link?
 
I found an online explosives calculator. Can anyone make an educated guess how many PSI a shock wave would have to be to shake Mr. Wire's highway bridge?

Eyeballing the map, matt.tansy is right; that bridge is around 10 miles from where the plane went down, not 20. According to the calculator I found, the atom bomb that hit Nagasaki in WWII would have delivered 0.1 PSI to that bridge, and that's measuring the distance from ground level, not 13,000 feet up.

ETA - distance to bridge measured from the plane crash site, not Nagasaki...
 
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Your argument is with Mike Wire. Are you saying his obviously unrehearsed recounting of the event immediately after was invented?

Be honest, how do you think Wire would perform on a lie detector test?

Be even more honest, how do you think that bridge would respond if we shot an identical US missile at a 747 in the exact same location?


You people are very good when the playing field involves brave people having both arms tied behind their back by the gov't that committed the crime.

I have first hand direct experience with AA Missiles shooting down aircraft. I know how big a bang they make at various ranges and altitudes. To be generous to him our Mike Wire is either mistaken or exaggerating.
 
He's well qualified because the data being interpreted is so basic anyone with any basic academic ability could do so.

By that logic anyone is "well-qualified." Sorry, you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You first touted him as a physicist, as if you wanted us to believe such a lofty credential mattered. Now you're backpedaling away from that, having realized that physicists aren't automatically radar operators. But now you have to explain why Stalcup alone is so famously capable of reaching this conclusion where none else have.

...with experts in the aviation and radar fields.

You mention only Stalcup. Besides, you're still trying to both have and eat your cake. You can't tell me there exist experts in the "radar field" without admitting it's a field that requires some expertise. And if it requires some expertise, then not everyone automatically is an expert. Experts by definition know something others don't. Therefore you have the burden to prove Stalcup is one of the experts.

In your haste to rehabilitate your witness you've set up contradictory criteria.

Stalcup has shown reasonable evidence that no one has reasonably disproven.

Asked and answered.

And he's well-qualified to do so, despite your flagrantly-deceptive denials.

Nonsense. Radar operation and interpretation is a highly specialized field. And if Stalcup cannot demonstrate his expertise in it, then he does not get to have his uninformed inferences accepted as premises.

The radar data clearly shows debris ejecting to the starboard side. No serious investigator involved with this questions this. There is no ejecta to the port side. There's no "poor interpretation" possible with this kind of unquestionable data. You are just adding non-truths to obfuscate the facts.

No, you're just continuing to beg the question, with increasing desperation.

Besides, your own CIA animation clearly shows a symmetrical fuel explosion pattern. So you are contradicting what your own people said. Well done! lol

Straw man. I never mentioned anything about a CIA animation. They are not "my" CIA.

I think this one example alone shows your input to be fatally deficient and not worth responding to.

Most people sooner or later manufacture some pretense not to talk to me, or to anyone else who asks them questions they cannot answer. As I said, you may offer any excuse you want to avoid my posts, but you cannot then say that you have been ignored.

Since when have you had any objections to pseudo-science since your side has...

Straw man, and tu quoque ad hominem.

While you pretend high standards don't forget your side offered the seat glue explanation.

Gish gallop.

You're just filibustering sophist filler material.

I'm happy letting the reader decide. He may instead come to the conclusion that you simply don't understand the rebuttals being put to you.

Stalcup has satisfied the science by showing the leading piece of ejecta got to that point at mach 4.

Asked and answered. You're simply demanding that we accept his inexperienced opinions and inferences as fact, despite that we have given you a number of reasons why that would be unwise. You may not understand why his findings are pseudoscience, but we do.

What's painfully obvious here is that your contrived, hollow protests have failed to disprove that.

I'll let others decide for themselves what is obvious to them. You have failed to explain why Stalcup ventured outside normal scientific practice to do work in an unrelated field. When asked to explain how Stalcup's findings should still be considered valid, you retracted the claim to expertise and tried to argue that anyone could have done that work. You have put all your eggs in one basket, and I've shown you the holes in the basket.

Since you seem to believe anyone can interpret radar information, please explain to me the differences among ATC search radar (primary or secondary), military search radar, and targeting radar. And yes, the differences are relevant to your claims. How, for example, does search radar establish a track such that position and velocity information is available? Does ATC radar do this?

You're obviously in denial...

Oh, "obviously."

...and that method validation protest you make is disingenuous.

Funny, that's the whole point of peer review. Most scientists consider validation of method and associated error analysis to be the pillars of the scientific method.

Meanwhile your side doesn't offer anyone to explain the results besides this technical dishonesty.

Asked and answered. You simply seem not to understand how subversion of support works.

Where is your explanation for NASA scientist Charley Basset...

Gish gallop.

Besides, what you're saying isn't true and Stalcup did legitimately show a piece of ejecta that traveled at mach 4.

Asked and answered -- begging the question.

Your in contempt of commonly-known science.

I don't accept you as an expert on science or the scientific method.

It isn't me who should be answering these obscene reversals.

There is no "obscene reversal." You are the affirmant, therefore it is your burden of proof.

It is you who should be explaining how a 300 foot per second fuel explosion created such a quickly-traveling ejecta plume?

Asked and answered -- subversion of support.

Says the guy who tolerates...

Straw man.

Not as big as your double standard considering what you haven't come close to disproving here.

I have shown you the flaws in your argument. You simply deny them and repeat your original claims.

The first pieces of ejecta reach a point on the radar that required mach 4 to get them there.

Asked and answered -- unsupported inference.

You can't argue this.

Of course I can. You just desperately wish I wouldn't. You keep baiting me to offer rebuttals only on points you're already prepared to answer. Sadly, I will provide the proper rebuttal, addressed at the points I find to be weakest, and I will not apologize that you are unprepared for it. The proper rebuttal here is that the analysis allegedly showing a Mach 4 debris track is based on unproven methodologies devised and executed by an inexpert practioner working outside the scientific method.

It's hard science written in stone in the radar data.

Nonsense, for the reasons already given. You alternatively provide a pseudo-expert or argue that no expertise is needed. You pooh-pooh the basis of peer-reviewed science, then try to argue that the results are somehow nevertheless scientifically rigorous.

No matter how much you frantically beg the question, it is not "hard science." And since it is the basis of your entire claim, it is not something that can just be glossed over.

Let's always keep in mind that your side never proved any forensic evidence showing a center fuel tank explosion as the cause. So you're a hypocrite.

Name-calling is inappropriate. You make straw-man references to "my side" in a frantic effort to shift the burden of proof. I have made no affirmative claims or statements of belief. I'm simply examining your claim. If you cannot sustain such an examination, it is no fault of mine nor the fault of any others who may or may not believe various things.

It's right there on radar. Anyone who argues it dismisses their own credibility.

I'm satisfied with my credibility as it stands. It doesn't need your validation.

What you are obviously doing (and it isn't fooling anyone) is you are trying to bamboozle with highly technical challenges based on contrived esoteric knowledge...

Nonsense. I am applying my professional expertise to a claim made within the boundaries of my discipline. You likely believed, wrongly so, that the audience for your claims would be laymen. So that when you assured us that there was sufficient scientific and engineering justification for your claims, few if any would be able to challenge it.

Now that you have been surprised with an expert examination of your claims, you're trying various tactics to recover. You're offering incessant bluff and bluster. You're trying to write off the questions and challenges as mere sophistry, but this comes off as little more than an admission you don't understand it. You're employing name-calling and other emotional arguments to try to poison the well.

There is only one reason you are unable to carry on a discussion regarding the specific scientific and engineering claims you have made. And it's not that I'm just blinding you with science.

If we go back to my original point the uniform failure of the forward center fuel tank wall in the forward direction shows the blast happened symmetrically. Therefore this fatally conflicts with the asymmetrical plume forensic data shown on the radar.

Asked and answered. You are applying straw-man criteria of fidelity to the test, which I previously explained.

Don't you understand that the more you offer these substance-devoid protests without being able to disprove the actual evidence the stronger it becomes?

Yes, I am well aware of the rhetorical idiom of conspiracy claims. However, if you'd read any of the thousands of posts I've made to this and similar forums, you'd realize that your bluster really isn't going to save you. You can try all you want to claim I'm just some internet blowhard, but most of the people reading your posts have been reading my posts for years. You won't prevail in this debate by trying to frame your critics.

You have yet to give a credible answer to the mach 4 ejecta besides painfully transparent sophist technicalities over methodology.

Dismissing the central tenet of the scientific method does not bode well for your belief that science "backs you up" here.

Meanwhile the evidence itself stands and you haven't touched it.

Asked and answered -- subversion of support. You want to leap-frog over the important part of the discussion. The evidence doesn't stand until you are able to acknowledge and meet the challenges to it.

OK. Let's discuss the particular point of FBI criminally lying about the seat glue test.

No, let's not have a Gish gallop. We're not going to change subjects every time you get stuck. Let's stay on the points you first raised until we're satisfied they've been adequately explored. I know it's painful for you to have to continue trying to bluff your way through technical arguments, but that's my point. Defending your beliefs is painful, which should be telling you something.

The TWA 800 site is run by pilots and top credibility industry professionals.

You're cherry-picking your experts.

Where is your demand that CIA come forth with its science? You're not being honest.

Straw man again. Also, changing the burden of proof.

In some sophist theoretical heaven I suppose but not in the real world.

I'm an engineer in the real world. What are you?

To me you look like a laughable lord guarding his burnt-out gilded crack house of deception.

Sticks and stones...

Just keep poisoning that well. We'll see how well that argument works for you.

Anyone can compare the evidence content of my posts to the hot air content of yours.

Yes, they can.

We both know it would.

Arrogant presumption. Do not presume to tell me what I know or don't know, or that I secretly agree with you.
 
You simply do not know what you are talking about. The coroner said the burn marks and injuries on the bodies of the victims over the center tank were completely random. Did you know that they did matching of the bodies to their seat locations and injuries? They found that persons with hardly any injuries were seated next to persons who were badly mutilated. Also persons with bad burns were seated next to persons who were unburned.

All of that rules out a missile strike. If it was a missile the injuries would be consistent and the severity would decrease with distance.


What you say is completely oppositely wrong, and the coroner was on record as saying the injuries did not match other known cases of fuel fires in accidents but just so happened to exactly match the injuries of victims in known missile shootdowns. Did you know that? Did you know there's pictures of this? This is in the new documentary you people are in contempt of by the way.


I don't recall the MEs mentioning the injuries matched missile injuries in the documentary. What is the time stamp for that.

Did you know the only people the physicist presented his "Mach 4 ejected debris" claim to in the entire documentary was to the medical examiners? Yeah, that is exactly the people I would present radar data to.
 
Your argument is with Mike Wire.

No, it's with you. You're presenting his claims and vouching for them as evidence for claims you're making. Therefore you are advocating him and the obligation to defend him in this argument is yours. Unless of course you want to admit you're just copying claims mindlessly from some other source.

Do not try to tell us your witnesses cannot be impeached when you are unwilling to continue in your advocation throughout the challenge.

Are you saying his obviously unrehearsed recounting of the event immediately after was invented?

I'm saying it is demonstrably not credible for the reasons provided. I do not speculate, nor do I need to, on the reasons why it was stated as it was.

Be honest, how do you think Wire would perform on a lie detector test?

I don't speculate on that, and it's irrelevant to the point. Wire's claims are contradicted by theoretical limitations and by empirical counterevidence which you cannot explain. Trying to buttress his credibility by ad hominem means does not answer the objective disputations.

Be even more honest, how do you think that bridge would respond if we shot an identical US missile at a 747 in the exact same location?

Irrelevant. You have made specific, testable claims for how you allege the bridge did respond, and you have offered reasons for it. You have, at this point, utterly failed to show that you have tested those claims. You have even tried, through bluster, to evade a basic discussion of the problem as a physics exercise. It is abundantly apparent that you don't have the faintest idea how to formulate that problem or reason about it, and thus we're likely to get only continued bluff.

So kindly stop trying to bait your critics into begging the question so that you can have a straw man. The strength of your claim stands or falls on your ability to defend it with proper rigor, not the success or failure of someone else to sustain some other notion.

You people are very good when the playing field involves brave people having both arms tied behind their back by the gov't that committed the crime.

Special pleading and circular reasoning. Do not give us a sob story when we ask for corroboration of your witnesses' counterindicated and non-credible claims.
 
You're not serious?


Ellard posted a nuclear bomb damage graphic not connected to anything I wrote.

A 300 foot per second fuel explosion doesn't shake a highway bridge's superstructure at 20 miles. 2000 foot per second US missile warhead ordnance does.


Where is Ellard's Graph for that?


I'm confident explosives experts would bear me out on this.


You really do need to have your hand held, don't you? The entire reason that a nuclear blast radius damage graph was brought up was to contrast it to whatever type of explosion occurred to TWA 800; CFT explosion, missile, or otherwise. The point is that whatever type of explosion this was, it was less than a 500 kt blast. Can you get the rest of the way by yourself, or do you need more help?
 
JetBlast, you still have not named the submarine Captain.
Given that it took me thirty second I assume that he's either terminally incompetent at research or is unwilling to give such information as it'll show that his claims are fabricated garbage.

I have experience with AA Missiles fired from Ships. I was involved in a bit of a punch up in the South Atlantic back in the 80s. We shot down Argentinian Aircraft at ranges from 35 to 5 miles with Sea Dart Ship launched AA Missiles. at 5 miles we heard the bang but no shock wave, didn't even shake my hat never mind a bridge. They carry 24 lb of HE and a fragmenting warhead later replaced by a continuous rod. I have seen the older Sea Slug Missiles carried on the Counties launched against target drones and impact at about 5 miles they carry 200lb of HE and they make a nice bang but sorry, no shock waves or shakes. That size of warhead would be about the same as a US 'Standard'. AA missile.
Our missiles weren't heard at their maximum range.

What missiles were these subs carrying that could shake a bridge 20 miles away?
Is there any conventional ordnance in service anywhere that could even be heard at 20 miles?

Where does the huge bridge shaking Kaboom come from?
Well now, JB's theory is of course rubbish but it's interesting to ennumerate the reasons it's rubbish.

  1. Of the three subs he names none carried VLS or other launchers compatible with Standard (or indeed Sea Sparrow/ESSM or RAM)
  2. Only the Wyoming had dedicated missile tubes, for Trident D5. Not exactly a suitable weapon for attacking aircraft. Those tubes aren't compatible with other weapons. The boat still carries Trident, it wasn't refitted with Tomahawk tubes either.
  3. Standard can't be fired underwater, ergo JB's mythical SAM armed sub would have to surface. This also applies Sea Sparrow/ESSM and RAM.
  4. No sub carries the requisite targeting RADAR or datalinks to handle SAMs meaning it'd need a massive refit to use such weapons.
  5. The warhead of the Standard doesn't match either of JB's accounts, the alleged aircraft damage and the bridge shaking explosion.
  6. The only vaguely plausible submarine launched SAM scenario is the MANPADS one; of course this would again require the sub to surface and is subject to all the previously enumerated problems, principally lack of range and lack of effect.
Explain to me what an ICBM-exclusive sub was doing in near-shore Whiskey testing ground maneuvers? That's a fish out of water by your own definition.
Post-commissioning shakedown, only two days out of port.

However I'll require you to explain why US gov wouldn't be capable of creating an "experimental missile," as the crewman said, that would be compatible with the Wyoming? How do you know they didn't have this capacity?
Because many of us are better informed about missiles, submarines, RADAR and a vast number of other topics than you. And your alleged "crewmember".
:rolleyes:

Also, you ignore the elephant in the room of the captain being relieved of duty upon return to Groton.
A claim you keep repeating without once supporting with actual evidence; your unsupported claims are worthless.


However, my view is that we should be able to ask the seamen what the deal is on this? Why can't we?
Is this the same seaman whose very existence is supported only by your claims?
:rolleyes:

Let's forget the source and just deal with the missile evidence itself, no matter what kind or launching point. That's what the new documentary does.
What evidence is that? You've supplied no evidence, just worthless, unsupported claims.

How do you know she was "near-shore"? The Whiskey areas are aircraft exercise areas; surface ships and submarines use the Narraganset Bay Operating Areas. They overlap. Submarines never operate near where TWA 800 went down; the water is too shallow. After leaving port they head out to the deep water off the continental shelf which is about 70 miles from where TWA 800 went down. The closest they get is when transiting back to Groton and that is a good 50 miles away. Wyoming was just commissioned; she wouldn't be participating in any exercises. She was conducting more sea trials. I speak with 20 years experience in the submarine service with 10 years operating in that area.
Good points. I suppose it is vaguely possible a sub was conducting some sort of trial in the littorals but the Ohio's are rather large and out of place that far inshore.

Do you have a source for that?
He hasn't supplied the name of either of the COs, let alone verified his assertion.
It took me barely a minute to find out both officers' names, photos, bios and other data.
 
Ellard posted a nuclear bomb damage graphic not connected to anything I wrote.
The Patriot missile has a 200pound warhead. I gave you the blast damage for a 500 kiloton nuclear weapon.

If a 500 kiloton nuclear weapon cannot shake a bridge at 20miles, why do you think a 200 pound explosion would do so? May I see your evidence?
 
I've been out of the loop a bit, has the doco had general release, and what was it's major "arguments". Seeing JB's response i'm guessing it focused on the "Mach 4" radar data and little else.

As to the inverse square law, wasn't that taught in year 8/9. not a hard concept to grasp, unless you willingly deny it to support your predetermined view (also it is a Law instead of a theory which is what most conspiracy theorist harp (hehehe HARRP) on about :) )
 
I've been out of the loop a bit, has the doco had general release, and what was it's major "arguments". Seeing JB's response i'm guessing it focused on the "Mach 4" radar data and little else.


It's on Epix. You can get a free 14 day trial with them. Only about 2~3 minutes is about the Mach 4 claim. As I mentioned earlier the Mach 4 radar claim was presented to two medical examiners, who sat there himming and hawing and wondering why in the hell is this guy asking us about explosive ejecta and not an explosives expert? The rest is cherry-picked eyewitness accounts without critical examination and ambushing the few investigators who agreed to be interviewed. And some bizarre life story stuff about Stalcup that really didn't belong in a documentary about a plane crash.

Oh, and some bizarre explosive experiment that proved some minor point that anybody who ever watched an episode of the Mythbusters already knew what the outcome would be.
 
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P.S. They claim 3 missiles took down TWA 800. One exploded over the left wing, the second somewhere near it, and the third underneath it which caused the nose to fall off. I'm guessing that scenario was invented so none of the eyewitnesses felt left out.
 
That sort of thing seems to be endemic among CTers. Basically, they seem to think eyewitness testimony is inerrant, so they invent a scenario, no matter how absurd, that covers all the descriptions.

I mean, three missiles? And nobody has owned up, and no other evidence, in all the intervening years?
 
All of that rules out a missile strike. If it was a missile the injuries would be consistent and the severity would decrease with distance.



Sure anything you say. Except a more credible analysis of this crash would include the way the aircraft broke-up and fire exposure as the center tank exploded later in the process. You deny too quickly on too short a basis.

Your offhand expertise has a problem however. You might want to check out MIT professor Graeme Sephton's lawsuit against FBI in a Boston Federal Court. The Long Island Coroner found and removed shrapnel from many of victims. The shrapnel were in pellet form and were tested. The tests showed they consisted of metals not found in Boeing construction (meaning they had to have come from something other than the aircraft). When tested the pellets were found to be made of the exact same metals used in US warhead shrapnel. FBI confiscated the pellets and took them into evidence, making a 30 page report on them.

When MIT professor Graeme Sephton filed a Freedom Of Information Act request for the files FBI refused, saying they couldn't find them. Sephton took FBI to court where a Bush-era judge told Sephton that although he thought FBI acted poorly he was ruling in their favor. Although the law required FBI to return the pellets to the Long Island Coroner they never did.




I don't recall the MEs mentioning the injuries matched missile injuries in the documentary. What is the time stamp for that.




I believe it was on the version I saw on You-Tube before the documentary came out. The reason the bodies varied so much is because a missile transited the cabin and another one blew up in close proximity sending a terrible lethal force into the jet. Those weapons did what they were designed to do. A fuel tank explosion would have been less violent and more evenly distributed. You're wrong. The injuries witnessed were missile impact injuries. We are talking a proximity detonation and transit followed by center tank fire. Those injuries are just right for this pattern. The Long Island Coroner isn't an idiot. The mutilations were severe yet the person next to them was relatively uninjured. That's a blast injury pal, not a center tank pop.




Did you know the only people the physicist presented his "Mach 4 ejected debris" claim to in the entire documentary was to the medical examiners? Yeah, that is exactly the people I would present radar data to.




Stalcup has presented his data publicly. He's presented it through FIRO. You have to remember the authorities are criminally covering this up. You guys pretend everything's normal when the truth is people are being asked to play ball while the baseball field has been chained shut.
 
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P.S. They claim 3 missiles took down TWA 800. One exploded over the left wing, the second somewhere near it, and the third underneath it which caused the nose to fall off. I'm guessing that scenario was invented so none of the eyewitnesses felt left out.


There were at least two. It was actually a military man sitting in a US Air flight headed to Providence who witnessed the second missile coming in from the south. His name was Dwight Brumley. The underbelly missile was the proximity detonation that gouged the nose gear assembly with blast striations (impossible for a fuel tank explosion) Those striations were hard evidence that was ignored and covered-up. You're forgetting the people in the documentary were the actual investigators who witnessed this stuff and are now coming forward. You seem to be pretending they don't exist and fail to recognize the serious significance of their testimony.
 
By that logic anyone is "well-qualified." Sorry, you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You first touted him as a physicist, as if you wanted us to believe such a lofty credential mattered. Now you're backpedaling away from that, having realized that physicists aren't automatically radar operators. But now you have to explain why Stalcup alone is so famously capable of reaching this conclusion where none else have.


I have no interest in silly filibuster. Stalcup is well qualified to make the simple determinations he has. You failed to show where his radar claims are wrong. You're obviously not to be taken seriously.


Since you can't account for the mach 4 ejecta I take that as a default by concession.


There's a simple way to solve problems like this. Put Stalcup next to our pompous lord from Utah. 'Nuff said.
 
I have first hand direct experience with AA Missiles shooting down aircraft. I know how big a bang they make at various ranges and altitudes. To be generous to him our Mike Wire is either mistaken or exaggerating.



Then we should sit you down next to VietNam and National Guard helicopter pilot Fred Meyer. Fred dodged commie ak ak and SAMs during his tour. You see Mr Meyer was actually much more exposed to SAM High-Explosives with much more skin in the game. And don't forget that not only was Meyer actually there and witnessed the shootdown but so did Mr Wire. So I'm glad you have the nerve to correct these people, seeing how you weren't there, but you'll forgive me for taking their word over yours. "Mistaken or exaggerating" about a bridge shaking violently - ya. OK.

I'd love to be there when you correct Meyer on the "star-like" brilliance of the flash he saw when the missile hit Flight 800. By the way, why didn't you mention that flash as part of your expertise?
 
The shrapnel were in pellet form and were tested. The tests showed they consisted of metals not found in Boeing construction (meaning they had to have come from something other than the aircraft). When tested the pellets were found to be made of the exact same metals used in US warhead shrapnel.


You have a source for that claim of course. Then please explain how these fragments entered the victims without penetrating the skin of the aircraft.


FBI confiscated the pellets and took them into evidence, making a 30 page report on them.

When MIT professor Graeme Sephton filed a Freedom Of Information Act request for the files FBI refused, saying they couldn't find them. Sephton took FBI to court where a Bush-era judge told Sephton that although he thought FBI acted poorly he was ruling in their favor. Although the law required FBI to return the pellets to the Long Island Coroner they never did.

I believe it was on the version I saw on You-Tube before the documentary came out. The reason the bodies varied so much is because a missile transited the cabin and another one blew up in close proximity sending a terrible lethal force into the jet. Those weapons did what they were designed to do.


They are designed to pelt an aircraft with thousands of high velocity fragments. The effects of the blast is secondary to the fragmentation. About one third of a warhead's weight is high explosives, the rest is metal. A 62 kg SM-2 warhead would fragment into forty thousand 1 gram pieces.


A fuel tank explosion would have been less violent and more evenly distributed. You're wrong. The injuries witnessed were missile impact injuries. We are talking a proximity detonation and transit followed by center tank fire. Those injuries are just right for this pattern. The Long Island Coroner isn't an idiot. The mutilations were severe yet the person next to them was relatively uninjured. That's a blast injury pal, not a center tank pop.


Are you suggesting blast injuries can decrease from severe to non-existent within a foot and a half? If a body was close enough to a missile explosion to get badly burnt then it would have a thousand fragments in it.

Stalcup has presented his data publicly. He's presented it through FIRO.


He has presented his starting data (0.5 nautical miles, 8.5 seconds) and his conclusion publicly. I cannot find his calculations online.
 
Question: What percentage of the witnesses saw missiles vs those that did not?
 

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