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New TWA Flight 800 film coming out

What were the coroners exact words? What other missile shootdown incidents did he refer to or have listed experience with?



Let me tell you. You're not going to win this one. Why? Because Flight 800 was shot down and you're backing a fool's Devil's Advocacy position against the obvious.

I feel safe saying that the coroner and investigators' credentials are good enough for me. Also, I have yet to see anyone challenge them on this. At this point we should really asking the qualifications and credentials of internet doubters who have the hubris to ask disingenuous questions in front of the obvious. This is in the new documentary. I suggest you check it out if you have any genuine interest.
 
Let me tell you. You're not going to win this one. Why? Because Flight 800 was shot down and you're backing a fool's Devil's Advocacy position against the obvious.
Can't answer my questions, then?

I feel safe saying that the coroner and investigators' credentials are good enough for me. Also, I have yet to see anyone challenge them on this. At this point we should really asking the qualifications and credentials of internet doubters who have the hubris to ask disingenuous questions in front of the obvious. This is in the new documentary. I suggest you check it out if you have any genuine interest.
Qualification: 23 years in the Navy, including active duty as a Surface Warfare Officer on a guided missile cruiser, during wartime. Plus, I'm a skeptic. Your calls to authority don't frighten me.
 
I have experience with AA Missiles fired from Ships. I was involved in a bit of a punch up in the South Atlantic back in the 80s. We shot down Argentinian Aircraft at ranges from 35 to 5 miles with Sea Dart Ship launched AA Missiles. at 5 miles we heard the bang but no shock wave, didn't even shake my hat never mind a bridge. They carry 24 lb of HE and a fragmenting warhead later replaced by a continuous rod. I have seen the older Sea Slug Missiles carried on the Counties launched against target drones and impact at about 5 miles they carry 200lb of HE and they make a nice bang but sorry, no shock waves or shakes. That size of warhead would be about the same as a US 'Standard'. AA missile.
Our missiles weren't heard at their maximum range.

What missiles were these subs carrying that could shake a bridge 20 miles away?
Is there any conventional ordnance in service anywhere that could even be heard at 20 miles?

Where does the huge bridge shaking Kaboom come from?



Your argument is with Mike Wire. Are you saying his obviously unrehearsed recounting of the event immediately after was invented?

Be honest, how do you think Wire would perform on a lie detector test?

Be even more honest, how do you think that bridge would respond if we shot an identical US missile at a 747 in the exact same location?


You people are very good when the playing field involves brave people having both arms tied behind their back by the gov't that committed the crime.
 
Can't answer my questions, then?


Qualification: 23 years in the Navy, including active duty as a Surface Warfare Officer on a guided missile cruiser, during wartime. Plus, I'm a skeptic. Your calls to authority don't frighten me.



Translation:


"I'll never question the military."


- Thanks
 
Dude, it's just math. Show your math and there's no drama needed. Calculate the force needed to rock a bridge, then use the inverse square law to show what force the explosion would have had to have. You'll soon see how ridiculous the claim is, and it doesn't mean that any brave heroes are silenced or dishonest.
 
Translation:


"I'll never question the military."


- Thanks

Looks more like you would rather play silly games than share and discuss support for your claim. Why make this so adversarial? Accept that you are on a sceptics board offering up a fringe idea that you need to support.

I have watched a couple of accident documentaries on this flight and would like to hear you make the case.
 
Let me tell you. You're not going to win this one. Why? Because Flight 800 was shot down and you're backing a fool's Devil's Advocacy position against the obvious.

I feel safe saying that the coroner and investigators' credentials are good enough for me. Also, I have yet to see anyone challenge them on this. At this point we should really asking the qualifications and credentials of internet doubters who have the hubris to ask disingenuous questions in front of the obvious. This is in the new documentary. I suggest you check it out if you have any genuine interest.

You completely and totally avoided answering his question, yet you have the hubris to say "[We're] not going to win this one." Why don't you just tell us what the coroner said and prove us wrong?
 
You named an SSBN that was just commissioned, doing sea trials. Plus, if there was a live-fire exercise, please list for me the associated NOTAM.



There was a test missile launch out of Virginia that evening.

However you've got to figure-out if you are telling me the Navy lies for security purposes or telling me to locate their documents on 'experimental missiles'. Ya.



You can invent anything you want, and so can your crewman (please list a reference, by the way). However the fact remains that, until you can prove otherwise, SSBNs do not carry Surface to Air Missile systems capable of launching and guiding a missile to an in-flight target. "Some guy claimed it" is not sufficient proof.



I'm sure if you contacted Jack Cashill and inquired you would find it was a true event. Another seaman who came forward backed-down and retracted shortly after. A sign of intimidation (Great free country).

Nice bluff, but truth is you have no clue what Wyoming was packing that night.



You still can't even name the Captain.



The captain was relieved of duty upon return to base. You know damned-well that's a serious event in the Navy. Apparently you have no curiosity why the cause was never given. Some program you run there.




You can't get a missile to a target without it being launched, first. At this point, your conjecture has no plausibility on that point alone.



You got it backwards. You're obviously contriving a reason to deny the missile evidence you won't admit.

Who do you think you're fooling? At the very least the great and glorious US Navy allowed someone to shoot a missile right in between their assets off Long Island and score a 74. You can't win this.
 
There was a test missile launch out of Virginia that evening.

However you've got to figure-out if you are telling me the Navy lies for security purposes or telling me to locate their documents on 'experimental missiles'. Ya.







I'm sure if you contacted Jack Cashill and inquired you would find it was a true event. Another seaman who came forward backed-down and retracted shortly after. A sign of intimidation (Great free country).

Nice bluff, but truth is you have no clue what Wyoming was packing that night.







The captain was relieved of duty upon return to base. You know damned-well that's a serious event in the Navy. Apparently you have no curiosity why the cause was never given. Some program you run there.








You got it backwards. You're obviously contriving a reason to deny the missile evidence you won't admit.

Who do you think you're fooling? At the very least the great and glorious US Navy allowed someone to shoot a missile right in between their assets off Long Island and score a 74. You can't win this.

I hear lots of saying stuff. I don't see any evidence (links, etc.) All hat and no cattle.
 
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Qualification: 23 years in the Navy, including active duty as a Surface Warfare Officer on a guided missile cruiser, during wartime. Plus, I'm a skeptic. Your calls to authority don't frighten me.



By the way, this doesn't answer how some Navy ribbon pusher qualifies as a questioner of the Long Island coroner, his experience, judgments, capabilities and resources in the determination of crash injuries. Forgive me if I take his documentary-level word over your gratuitous internet doubt.
 
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By the way, this doesn't answer how some Navy ribbon pusher qualifies as a questioner of the Long Island coroner, his experience, judgments, capabilities and resources in the determination of crash injuries. Forgive me if I take his documentary-level word over your internet doubt.

Whose testimony you have yet to provide... We're waiting.
 
By the way, this doesn't answer how some Navy ribbon pusher qualifies as a questioner of the Long Island coroner, his experience, judgments, capabilities and resources in the determination of crash injuries. Forgive me if I take his documentary-level word over your gratuitous internet doubt.

Ad hom. You haven't provided the coroners report.
 
From looking at the posts I'm not sure many have done much reading on this on the available websites. Stalcup pretty much proved Flight 800 was shot down by examining the radar tapes which showed an asymmetrical debris pattern shoot out the starboard side of TWA 800 at mach 4.


He said he proved it; he hasn't shown his work anywhere that I can find. If you can find it then please post a link. If you haven't seen it then you shouldn't be saying he proved it.

One thing Stalcup didn't do is calculate how big of a warhead would be required to eject debris at Mach 4. Explosive ejecta traveling through an atmosphere is subject to variety of sensitive scaling laws, i.e. double the mass of the warhead and you get a 10~15% increase in distance.


A fuel explosion is a soft explosion. It occurs at 300 feet per second. It would be impossible for a center tank explosion to eject materials at mach 4.


We have a conundrum. But the implication of the Mach 4 claim is that it must have been a missile has its own problems. Here is how Stalcup arrived at it. He used the distance debris was seen (0.5 nautical miles) between the loss of the transponder and the second radar sweep (8.5 seconds). A 1 kg part of an aircraft could get ejected at Mach 4 but it would only travel a short distance in 8.5 seconds due to it being more dependent on drag. If you make it 10 times heavier so drag has less effect on it then it would need 10 times the impulse, which means roughly 1000 times the explosive mass.

And the only way for a missile to eject debris at Mach 4 is the warhead to be touching the part that got ejected and on the opposite side from the direction it got ejected, which means the missile would have to have detonated inside the 747.


The ejection plume pattern caught on radar was in the continuing direction of the missile seen streaking towards Flight 800 by hundreds of witnesses.


Depends which eyewitness you use to determine which direction the streak of light was heading. The eyewitnesses were all over the map.

A fuel tank would explode symmetrically.


An exploding tank would fail at its weakest point which by definition means asymmetrically.

Mike Wire was a union ironworker working on a highway bridge 20 miles from Flight 800. He said when the shockwave from Flight 800's explosion hit his bridge it shook violently.


In his FBI interviews he said it "shook". Did he elaborate on it later? He was 10 to 11 miles from TWA 800, not 20. He is witness 571. His interviews can be found here: http://twa800.com/witnesscd/AppendixG.pdf starting on pdf page 130. His statements are consistent with seeing TWA 800 after it first exploded as evidenced by the radar data and when he heard the first explosion.


Some smart researchers saw Wire's statement and realized a 300 foot per second fuel explosion wasn't strong enough to shake a bridge at 20 miles. 2000 foot per second missile warhead ordnance would shake a bridge 20 miles away however.


What was 2000 f/s? The detonation velocity, the shock front velocity? Either way, 2000 f/s is way too low.

The destructive power of a warhead is also dependent on its mass, not just on detonation or shock front velocity. If you want to double the effects radius you need 8 times as much explosives.

When Wire told FBI the rising light he saw rose from low on the horizon FBI said he changed his story later on in a second interview. When researchers spoke to Wire and told him this he said he never did any second interview.


The link above has two interviews with Wire. In each interview he was consistent about the origin of the streak.

We could take a 747 and explode its center fuel tank right in the same spot and Mike Wire's bridge wouldn't shake. Both these cases are simple forensic proof Flight 800 was shot down.


The explosion in the CWT was equivalent to 20 lbs of TNT. An SM-2 warhead weighs 137 lbs but only about a third of that is high explosives. If the SM-2 uses PETN then the warhead has the equivalent of 75.8 lbs of TNT. Following the inverse cube law of explosives then an SM-2 detonation would be about 56% louder at any given distance than the CWT explosion. So there isn't much difference. Besides, in the documentary Stalcup claims three missiles exploded near TWA 800. If that were true then Wire would have reported 3 equally sounds, not one loud then 3 or 4 quieter ones.

This is all academic anyway as there aren't thousands of high velocity penetrations in the aircraft that must be there if it was attacked by 3 anti-aircraft missiles.
 
Let me tell you. You're not going to win this one. Why? Because Flight 800 was shot down and you're backing a fool's Devil's Advocacy position against the obvious.

How is this a "win" thing? Are we not looking for truth in factual evidence? :boggled:

We're just asking you for proof of what you claim. if your proof is that you believe what you read on these sites you quote, so be it. Just say so.

For me. I need a bit more.
 
Explain to me what an ICBM-exclusive sub was doing in near-shore Whiskey testing ground maneuvers? That's a fish out of water by your own definition.


How do you know she was "near-shore"? The Whiskey areas are aircraft exercise areas; surface ships and submarines use the Narraganset Bay Operating Areas. They overlap. Submarines never operate near where TWA 800 went down; the water is too shallow. After leaving port they head out to the deep water off the continental shelf which is about 70 miles from where TWA 800 went down. The closest they get is when transiting back to Groton and that is a good 50 miles away. Wyoming was just commissioned; she wouldn't be participating in any exercises. She was conducting more sea trials. I speak with 20 years experience in the submarine service with 10 years operating in that area.


Also, you ignore the elephant in the room of the captain being relieved of duty upon return to Groton.


Do you have a source for that?
 

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