Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Dan O.]

You think there needs to be a study to confirm that laughing kissing and making faces is innapropriate after your good friend was just murdered? Who's going to fund that? Try to argue something that you stand a chance with. The discussion was whether that was odd behavior. You're not being asked whether she is guilty rather whether she behaved badly or not.

If someone is making a claim then they need to back up that claim. What is the normal behavior of 2 kids after one week into a relationship? One need only walk across a college campus (especially in the spring) to see numerous examples of similar behavior. These aren't typically notable (except to prudes that complain about the same thing every year) only because those kids hadn't been accused of murder.

This of course has been studied. I find this in a chapter on Adult Attachment and Physical Contact:

Simpson et al.’s (1992) study was important for revealing couple-members’ observable attachment behaviors in response to stressful conditions. Soliciting and providing physical contact comfort under stressful conditions is likely to be a major purpose of the attachment behavioral system in adulthood as well as in infancy. ​

 

[Dan O.]

mixed blood samples

 

[Wildhorses]

RWVBWL,

How did you find out about the candle? Where did you get the photos?

I have a hard time believing they're real.

 

[Antony]

You think there needs to be a study to confirm that laughing kissing and making faces is innapropriate after your good friend was just murdered? Who's going to fund that? Try to argue something that you stand a chance with. The discussion was whether that was odd behavior. You're not being asked whether she is guilty rather whether she behaved badly or not.If that causes you stress watch the Cnn special again that aired last night. It was so full of errors , I'd be interested to know what people here thought of it.

You were following your own advice when you tried to base your arguments on innuendo attacking Amanda's character. Now you've blown it by straying into genuine evidence.

Of course the innuendo is a false argument as well, it's just that it's one the prosecution was guaranteed to win early on in the story of the case, when they had full control of the information that was coming out. They knew all along that they were on a loser with the actual evidence.

 

[Mary_H]

This is just a biased opinion. We all know now that coercive statements are created and this case is a perfect example.
Actually due to Migninni lying about the reasons why it wasn't taped makes it look more corrupt than in the beginning. Migninni stated it was not recorded due to budget cuts. Why would he lie?
The saddest part about this interrogation is it was done by those who are supposedly honest, but like Napoleoni and others we find they were booted out of office for being dishonest, finally caught and removed.<snip>

You think there needs to be a study to confirm that laughing kissing and making faces is innapropriate after your good friend was just murdered? Who's going to fund that? Try to argue something that you stand a chance with. The discussion was whether that was odd behavior. You're not being asked whether she is guilty rather whether she behaved badly or not.If that causes you stress watch the Cnn special again that aired last night. It was so full of errors , I'd be interested to know what people here thought of it.

I thought the CNN special was good. I appreciated the amount of time they gave to Candace, and I also really liked Darren Kavinoky, who I haven't seen before. I'm glad they eliminated all the nutty commentators and kept only the sane ones. Another thing I liked about the CNN special was how they emphasized what a devout Catholic Mignini thinks he is. They connected his conservative Catholicism to his beliefs in the occult -- Candace said something to the effect that Mignini is the kind of man who can look at the murder of one coed and see in it a ritualistic orgy.

To me, the key human behaviors explaining this case were expressed by the prosecutors and police, not by Amanda and Raffaele. And the most bewildering of these behaviors, especially in the context of Catholicism, is the constant lying.

Seeing how common lying seems to be in the culture associated with this case, I am very puzzled that these people claim to be practicing Catholics. I can only conclude their Catholicism is linked more to ritual than to actually connecting with their God, much less to other people. How does an entire culture with such a rich history end up being so shallow?

I also must conclude they do it by force of habit, or by social conditioning, if you will. The prosecutors and police had to lie to get what they wanted, and it does not seem to have occurred to them at any time that they did not have to have what they wanted. They express a very weak faith in their God when they convince themselves that their own creations are preferable to truth and reality.

 

[anglolawyer]

RW

I can help with the glass. I saw a film of an earthquake once. There was a glass on a table just like this one. Everything got shaken off but the glass, with water in it, remained very stable.

I can help with the money too. Amanda's money was not stolen. We can infer that from her book where she records being sent back to her room by the cops and forgetting to check it was still there. I know that sounds weird but the way she puts it strongly suggests the cash was still in situ.

I know nothing about the candle which is news to me. Where did you get your stash of pics from? I never saw the one of the kitchen table before either.

 

[Dan O.]

Who puts a lit candle near the edge of a nightstandwhere it can be knocked over easy?

There is no way to date when the candle was placed in the sink except that it was probably recent. Halloween night would be my guess.

I don't think we are seeing candle wax on the floor in Meredith's room. You can see in other locations where the blood has pooled too thick to dry quickly it turns black. Follow the dark streak in the crack between tiles in front of the night stand and where it thins out to the left it transitions to the blood red.

 

[RoseMontague]

RW

I can help with the glass. I saw a film of an earthquake once. There was a glass on a table just like this one. Everything got shaken off but the glass, with water in it, remained very stable.

I can help with the money too. Amanda's money was not stolen. We can infer that from her book where she records being sent back to her room by the cops and forgetting to check it was still there. I know that sounds weird but the way she puts it strongly suggests the cash was still in situ.

I know nothing about the candle which is news to me. Where did you get your stash of pics from? I never saw the one of the kitchen table before either.

The candle theory was one of Dr Mull's.

 

[Dan O.]

RWVBWL,

How did you find out about the candle? Where did you get the photos?

I have a hard time believing they're real.

The photos are all directly from the case file. You should have got the the packet when you signed up with Marriott. The full set has also been available for download at IA.

 

[anglolawyer]

Randy's pictures and the ensuing discussion highlight a crucial point about all these photographs. They only evidence the state of affairs at the moment the picture was taken. That will not in all cases be how things stood minutes, hours or days earlier. That is the whole point of this article about the lamp.

 

[RoseMontague]

Randy's pictures and the ensuing discussion highlight a crucial point about all these photographs. They only evidence the state of affairs at the moment the picture was taken. That will not in all cases be how things stood minutes, hours or days earlier. That is the whole point of this article about the lamp.

Maybe this will come up in the latest trial. Still a mystery.

 

[Antony]

I thought the CNN special was good. I appreciated the amount of time they gave to Candace, and I also really liked Darren Kavinoky, who I haven't seen before. I'm glad they eliminated all the nutty commentators and kept only the sane ones. Another thing I liked about the CNN special was how they emphasized what a devout Catholic Mignini thinks he is. They connected his conservative Catholicism to his beliefs in the occult -- Candace said something to the effect that Mignini is the kind of man who can look at the murder of one coed and see in it a ritualistic orgy.

...

Seeing how common lying seems to be in the culture associated with this case, I am very puzzled that these people claim to be practicing Catholics. I can only conclude their Catholicism is linked more to ritual than to actually connecting with their God, much less to other people. How does an entire culture with such a rich history end up being so shallow?
... the most bewildering of these behaviors, especially in the context of Catholicism, is the constant lying.

...

They express a very weak faith in their God when they convince themselves that their own creations are preferable to truth and reality.

It's a mistake to connect religion with ethics, although it's a common theme of religious people to make out that they are in some way more moral or ethical than the non-religious (or devotees of a rival religion). The answer to your question may be earlier in your own message: see highlighted text above.

To me, the key human behaviors explaining this case were expressed by the prosecutors and police, not by Amanda and Raffaele. And the most bewildering of these behaviors ... is the constant lying.

...

I also must conclude they do it by force of habit, or by social conditioning, if you will. The prosecutors and police had to lie to get what they wanted, and it does not seem to have occurred to them at any time that they did not have to have what they wanted.

I've separated out the religious points you made, so as to make the distinction between religion and ethics. On the rest of it, the insight of yours that I've highlighted goes another step towards making sense of what really can't be made to make sense.

What's yet more incomprehensible is why there (still) should be internet bloggers who continue to maintain the pretence, presumably without having the career interest that the police, lawyers and journalist clearly do have.

 

[anglolawyer]

Maybe this will come up in the latest trial. Still a mystery.

That raises the interesting question whether the prosecution can introduce new stuff. Remember, the lamp has not featured at all in the proceedings to date, except for a passing mention in Massei, who made no findings about it, and its appearance in the cartoon. It has much more traction in the online community than in court.

 

[Briars]

Whats funny about the mixed DNA and blood sample documented in Fiolmena's room?

 

[acbytesla]

You are ignoring the evidence of multiple assailants the courts will not. The clothing was completely removed after the fatal cuts for the purpose of staging .The evidence points to mutliple attackers who taunted and restrained Meredith. Staging a sexual attack after mortally wounding the victim is a sexual game. The sexual violence seen in psycho killer comics is repulsive to most people but others pay for that kind of thing. No one has come up with a plausible explanation for how the healthy sample of Sollecito's DNA landed on the clasp. Anne B going on about how it was kicked and kicked was a joke, I believe the back of the bra was used to lift Meredith and the metal hook was the point of contact that dug into Sollecito's finger.

I'm not ignoring any evidence Briars. There isn't evidence of multiple assailants. There are no finger or palm prints of Amanda or Raffaele in that room. There are shoe prints that only point to Rudy. Yet none to Amanda or Raffaele. Also, the room is very tiny and 4 people in that room fighting would have caused substantially more destruction.

No, saying that there is evidence of multiple attackers doesn't make it so. Hellmann didn't believe that and even Massei said the evidence did not rule out a single attacker.

Given that neither of the juries came to the conclusion that there had to be multiple attackers, why do you insist upon it?

 

[Briars]

And how long have you been an expert Briars when it comes to forensic science? Please enlighten us as to your qualifications.

Frankly all of your conclusions are tautologies. You start with Amanda and Raffaele being guilty and think that evidence through to the conclusion you start with.

duplicate

 

[Briars]

And how long have you been an expert Briars when it comes to forensic science? Please enlighten us as to your qualifications.

Frankly all of your conclusions are tautologies. You start with Amanda and Raffaele being guilty and think that evidence through to the conclusion you start with.

Amusing you don't see the irony in your statment. I assume you started in a neutral position like I did when looking at the case. Weighing and considering the evidence. You reached a conclusion as have I, but you think your conclusion is better. You have the overwhelming support of facebook friends and those that attend parties with the accused here. I think they are guilty and have seen nothing yet to change my mind. I had left a small window open for Hellman's motivations which was so flawed and offered no new insight. People here cannot even admit her behavior was odd. so protective and so afraid that that admission will show weakness. Its a relationship with the accused that stands out a biased "kid glove" approach. That approach must have everyone out to get her incompetant if not willing to falsify evidence.

 

[js202]

Whats funny about the mixed DNA and blood sample documented in Fiolmena's room?

Nothing whatsoever about this case is classically "funny". Tragicomic at best.

And Italian forensic "experts" walking around the murder scene, blithely traipsing blood and other DNA evidence from room to room, ranks perhaps tops in this category.

 

[MichaelB]

Amusing you don't see the irony in your statment. I assume you started in a neutral position like I did when looking at the case. Weighing and considering the evidence. You reached a conclusion as have I, but you think your conclusion is better. You have the overwhelming support of facebook friends and those that attend parties with the accused here. I think they are guilty and have seen nothing yet to change my mind. I had left a small window open for Hellman's motivations which was so flawed and offered no new insight. People here cannot even admit her behavior was odd. so protective and so afraid that that admission will show weakness. Its a relationship with the accused that stands out a biased "kid glove" approach. That approach must have everyone out to get her incompetant if not willing to falsify evidence.

Well it wasn't odd if you accept they were just roommates who were friendly and had known each other only 6 weeks. She cried in the backseat of the car on the way to the police station after being told how Meredith died. Isn't that enough? Pro guilt folks such as yourself seem to judge behaviour in this case as if they were lovers or sisters. The missing 29 wiretaps would probably offer more evidence of Amanda being distraught or upset about what happened but we'll never know because out of 36 000 wiretaps, the ones of her talking to her mum and Raffaele after the murder but before the arrests apparently went "missing". Funny that huh?

 

[Dan O.]

Whats funny about the mixed DNA and blood sample documented in Fiolmena's room?

You said "...including the fake break-in and DNA and mixed blood samples". With the number of times this has been discussed, you should be aware by now what the issue with that is. As for Filomena's room, do you have some magic cronographer that can put a time stamp on that stain? Will it work on the purported semen stain on Meredith's pillow?