Merged So there was melted steel

[Travis]

We don't need hypothetical concessions here. We need your actual position on the subject. Otherwise there's no discussion.

It matters not to me if there was or wasn't any melted steel. It certainly seems to matter to you that there was melted steel there since you have expended so much effort to prove it. So I do have to wonder why you think it is so important.

If it isn't important then why try so hard?

 

[Mark F]

We don't need hypothetical concessions here. We need your actual position on the subject. Otherwise there's no discussion.

Wow, did anyone see where that goalpost went?

It is a simple thing. We all agree for the purposes of discussion there was molten steel.

Your turn now - why does it matter if there was molten steel? We are all dying to know.

Last try. I await your next attempt to avoid the question with eager anticipation.

 

[Gamolon]

We're talking about you. Reports of molten steel in the WTC: true or untrue? Just answer the question. Is it too hard for you?

If untrue, how have you determined this?

Point me to any study or analysis that shows there were temperatures hot enough to melt steel.

Until you find me proof of there being temperatures hot enough to melt steel being present in those locations, then anyone reporting molten steel is mistaken. I don't care if they THINK they saw it or not. People see and hear things that they don't actually know WHAT they were, but try and compare them to things they know of that may be similar AND/OR fit the environmental aspects around them at the time.

Case in point.

A sinkhole caused the collapse of a resort in Florida. The breaking of the windows and structure as a result was described as "thunder" by the residents.
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/national_world&id=9204338

 

[jaydeehess]

Lol. Thanks, but I don't need to be granted anything.

You have been asking us to grant you an answer. Here you go, YES, let's assume molten steel is present.

You already know that if molten steel was present, then an investigation into its causes should have occurred.

Why? as pointed out innumerable times, reports of molten steel are fairly common in many fires. How are you determining that this case is in particular need of further investigation?

You also know about the nanothermite CD hypothesis, so you don't need to ask again about this. So what is it that you're asking? If you want to start a thread to solicit theories about the obvious coordinated destruction of the towers, then start a thread about it.

The theory concerning ?therm?te goes something like this:

molten steel=?therm?te=CD

There are a couple of missing details such as how much of this substance was required. In addition, if this substance was responsible for the molten steel in the rubble hot zones for days/weeks, how much more supposed 'left over' ?therm?te does that require?

Where were the devices placed that contained this substance? How were they set off? How did they survive the aircraft crashes? How were they timed just right to cause a supposed CD-like collapse?

Not a single one of these questions has been answered without resort to imbueing the ?therm?te with magical properties.
Unless, that is, you'd care to fill in these blanks.

Until then, you guys need to sort out your logic. Are reports of molten steel in the WTC pile true or untrue? What's your answer, JD? If they are untrue, how have you determined this? If they are true, how do you explain the presence of molten steel, and what authorities or evidence are you citing?

This is what the thread is about.

No, THIS thread is about moving past the debate about molten steel's existance. I certainly have (see below)

You fail to recognize the thrust of this thread despite the very clear language of the OP and the dozens of times it has been explained since then.

.

We don't need hypothetical concessions here. We need your actual position on the subject. Otherwise there's no discussion.

Ok, here you go ergo. You have convinced me. As I work through to type this post I have had an epitome. I , jaydeehess, a poster on JREF do hereby declare that the eyewitness testimony of having seen molten steel in the rubble of the WTC complex is compelling evidence of the existance of molten steel.


Having been convinced of this, I now wonder how it came to be there, and how it might be the result of a controlled demolition of three of the seven WTC structures.

Do you have any thoughts on this ergo? Perhaps you have answered these questions earlier in this thread. Would you please point me to the page or post number?

 

[jaydeehess]

He knows it's insignificant.

oh no, it may well be very significant.
It may be the result of the residue from devices used to destroy three out of 7 WTC structures.
The only thing left to do now is determine where these devices were placed, how they were protected, timed and controlled, how much residue we could expect to remain in the rubble to cause molten steel to remain molten for days/weeks.

Those questions are beyond my paygrade though so I would very much like other more knowledgable persons to guide me through this.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

I too have answered the question "so what?"

No you haven't.

Nobody's answering my questions, so I'll leave you again to your own "so what" discussion.

Nor are you answering our questions. Nor are you apparently willing and/or equipped to discuss the variety of thermodynamic mechanisms that were occurring for several months between the collapse and the subsequent excavation of the site.

 

[The Platypus]

Seems to me that ergo can't answer because his conspiracy cult websites haven't provided one for him to regurgitate.

 

[jaydeehess]

Seems to me that ergo can't answer because his conspiracy cult websites haven't provided one for him to regurgitate.

I am very new to this side of the debate but after 12 years of stating that the molten steel in the rubble is indicative of a controlled demolition , I am sure that Gage or S.Jones, or some luminary of the movement has a well fleshed out connection between molten steel in rubble and controlled demolition.
They must have,,,,,,,right?

 

[carlitos]

http://moltenmetalsmokinggun.blogspot.com/

 

[NoahFence]

http://moltenmetalsmokinggun.blogspot.com/

Always good for a few laughs. Time to first joke - 1st photo.

 

[twinstead]

Ah, the heart-warming picture of firefighters huddling around the pool of molten steel for warmth on a chilly night. I love that image.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

http://moltenmetalsmokinggun.blogspot.com/

Thanks for helping ergo. He seems to need it.

I would like to point out the following from this link:

Closeup of a cut WTC column below, click on the image to enlarge it, {link to image} like most of the images on this page. Note the extensive slag dripping down the front and also inside the column in the back. Some have maintained that this column must have been cut by ironworkers clearing the rubble, but that would be a terribly messy cut for a cutting torch and why would an ironworker make a cut at such an angle when it is far less work to cut more or less straight across? Most of the edges are rounded and sloppy, especially the unevenness of the back of the column suggests this column was not cut by an ironworker, anyone who's every used a cutting torch would be embarassed by a cut so terribly sloppy. I believe this cut is good evidence of a controlled demolition.

If any ironworkers, demolition experts or even arborists could comment on this that would be helpful, but what this comment presents is a collection of logical fallacies including but not limited to "if I ran the zoo", "leading question" and "argument from incredulity."

From my personal experience with metal cutting, the cut shows clearly a torch pattern of grooving and blowing of molten material into the column, consistent with either undersized cutting torch or thermal lance. The angle of cut would be appropriate for removing a column that had been bent, starting at the upper side so the offcut piece would pull the cut open and fall away from the operator.

From my personal experience with demolition (both in residential remodeling and in theatrical show strikes) the quality of a cut falls off dramatically as the level of chaos and time pressure increases. Given the amount of work to be done, that's actually a very tidy cut in my opinion.

 

[Mark F]

Thanks for helping ergo. He seems to need it.

I would like to point out the following from this link:


If any ironworkers, demolition experts or even arborists could comment on this that would be helpful, but what this comment presents is a collection of logical fallacies including but not limited to "if I ran the zoo", "leading question" and "argument from incredulity."

From my personal experience with metal cutting, the cut shows clearly a torch pattern of grooving and blowing of molten material into the column, consistent with either undersized cutting torch or thermal lance. The angle of cut would be appropriate for removing a column that had been bent, starting at the upper side so the offcut piece would pull the cut open and fall away from the operator.

From my personal experience with demolition (both in residential remodeling and in theatrical show strikes) the quality of a cut falls off dramatically as the level of chaos and time pressure increases. Given the amount of work to be done, that's actually a very tidy cut in my opinion.

There are more than enough images out there of workers making those cuts with thermal lances to say conclusively the cuts were made by thermal lances.

That and the fact that those cut beams didn't show up until long after the collapses.

 

[jaydeehess]

http://moltenmetalsmokinggun.blogspot.com/

It may be the result of the residue from devices used to destroy three out of 7 WTC structures.

They certainly agree with me there.

The only thing left to do now is determine where these devices were placed, how they were protected, timed and controlled

I may have missed where they address this.

how much residue we could expect to remain in the rubble to cause molten steel to remain molten for days/weeks.

I don't see that either.

Carlitos, thank you for that but I am not sure we have really gotten much more detail beyond, molten steel=?therm?te=CD, yet.

 

[George 152]

Ah, the heart-warming picture of firefighters huddling around the pool of molten steel for warmth on a chilly night. I love that image.

Considering just how fast molten metal remains molten when open to atmosphere and removed from the heat source I'd say you'd have about 10 minutes to take that photo

 

[carlitos]

Carlitos, thank you for that but I am not sure we have really gotten much more detail beyond, molten steel=?therm?te=CD, yet.

That's why we need a new impartial investigation with subpoena power given to Ed Asner and Dick Gregory.

 

[jaydeehess]

That's why we need a new impartial investigation with subpoena power given to Ed Asner and Dick Gregory.

Now, now, I am a new convert to the existance of molten metal, and while I appreciate the help of you and others wishing to aid me in my (well, and Travis', since it is his OP) search for meaning in this, but let's keep it serious.

 

[Porkpie Hat]

If the report of molten steel is significant, then the implications are far reaching.

"The massive six-alarm blaze caused by a construction accident, melted steel girders"

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...BAJ&pg=6750,802662&dq=fire+melted-steel&hl=en

"Fire broke out at a paint warehouse on the city's north side turning the building into a pile of melted steel girders"

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AJ&pg=6621,6980086&dq=fire+melted-steel&hl=en

"A fire of an unknown origin melted steel beams and kept about 100 firemen busy most of Saturday morning"

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AJ&pg=2862,6424815&dq=fire+melted-steel&hl=en

" A raging fire fed by magnesium night illumination flares swept ... thick, choking smoke and flames so hot that they melted steel girders"

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AJ&pg=6272,3675441&dq=fire+melted-steel&hl=en

" One of them said flames reached nearly 60 feet high and melted steel frames"

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AJ&pg=5170,4552199&dq=fire+melted-steel&hl=en

" Fire- swept through the Haunted Castle attraction at the Six Flags ... The search through the melted steel and charred wood continued"

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AJ&pg=3741,3271382&dq=fire+melted-steel&hl=en

" Despite the semitrailer truck crashing into an irrigation canal and catching fire to the point it became a twisted ball of melted steel, the driver was able to escape serious injury, Butler said."

http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20120405/A_NEWS/204050320/-1/NEWSMAP

" Millo said the fire was so intense it melted steel roof beams. Firefighters from Echo Hose, Pine Rock and Huntington fire companies fought the blaze."

http://www.firefightingnews.com/article.cfm?articleID=21171

" Now, much of the place is reduced to piles of charred property and melted steel beams.
More than 400 people lived at Grandview Palace."

http://www.wbng.com/news/local/Former-Browns-Hotel-Destroyed-147939585.html

There are hundreds and hundreds of such reports in as many fires.

One consideration I haven't seen anyone mention is that combining materials with varying melting points will result in a lowering of the melting point of the material with the highest melting point.

Thus, the presence of molten aluminum in the rubble pile which is an insulated enviroment where heat input is higher than heat loss could quite easily produce molten materials including steel.

Unless the charlatans of 911 "truth" can present a sound argument for why molten steel IS significant, this argument has nothing to do with truth and everything to do with continuing a dialogue with no light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[ozeco41]

...but let's keep it serious.

Could you suggest what meets the criterion of "serious" in this thread?

Where:
1) the given premise for discussion was "There was melted steel"
2) The OP question was "What would be the consequences" given that starting premise.

So all discussion of the technical reasons for "no melted steel' is off topic troll feeding.



.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

One consideration I haven't seen anyone mention is that combining materials with varying melting points will result in a lowering of the melting point of the material with the highest melting point.

Thus, the presence of molten aluminum in the rubble pile which is an insulated enviroment where heat input is higher than heat loss could quite easily produce molten materials including steel.

I didn't know you can mix aluminum and iron in that way. Looking it up just now I found references to 80:20, 50:50 and 46:25 mixtures, but I haven't found specs for those various alloys, nor can I think why one would want them. I'm out of my knowledge zone on that.

Anyway, I also found reference to flammability of iron in bulk, which I would have thought nearly impossible without massively increased surface area (ie, steel wool) or highly oxygenated environments, but apparently in WW2 tanks would sometimes burn up. But another thing to consider is the massive amount of molecularly bound sulfur and oxygen in gypsum drywall; apparently, actively oxidizing hot iron is aggressive enough to suck the oxygen out of other substances, and adding sulfur to the stew doesn't hurt things at all.

Suddenly I'm willing to consider the possibility that the accidental smelter created in the WTC rubble might have created both bloomery (nonmelted) iron clusters as well as molten zones in the few available air channels through the pile.

None of the above leads me to conclude that the 9/11 event had any suspicious activity, though. Rather it leads me to view civilization en gros as a radically concentrated enriched ore plume.