Arizona Republicans Propose Bill That Would Prevent Atheists From Graduating

[Dorian Gray]

hmmm... why would you care about saying 4 words that you don't even mean? They're not saying you have to believe them in order to graduate, you just have to say them. If you had a serious moral issue with doing homework, do you think you should be excused from doing it just because you're against it?

Would you care if the 4 words were "I am an atheist"? How about "I slept with Mom", or "I molest little girls". Who cares, right? Because you don't really mean them.

 

[Joz]

If the oath was to forsake God, would you be offended? After all,they're just words.

Not at all. You're absolutely right.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

So what's the purpose of the oath, then? To teach kids insincerity?

It's the illogic that rankles most with me, not the God stuff. An obligation to freely choose to make whatever promise they tell you to. It's nuts. It's insulting.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Don't you have to take an oath with your hand on the Bible when testifying in court? Do you get offended by that too?

If they did require that, it would be an obvious violation of the First Amendment.

Not only do they not require you to put your hand on someone's idea of a Bible, they also don't require you to swear an oath at all. You are free simply to affirm that you will tell the truth.

 

[Ladewig]

And you think that creating an oath is encouraging children to lie? Do you think the Pledge of Allegiance encourages children to lie too? What about singing God Bless America?

For people that are so quick to complain about religious people being over-zealous, they sure are sensitive and offended by seemingly everything.

Students in the U.S. are allowed to forgo the Pledge of Allegiance. Students are also allowed to not sing "God Bless America." This poorly-thought-out oath appears to be required.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

And you think that creating an oath is encouraging children to lie?

Not creating an oath, but mandating it as a condition of receiving your high school diploma. And it either violates people's First Amendment rights or is an encouragement to lie--whatever way you like to look at it.

Do you think the Pledge of Allegiance encourages children to lie too?

Requiring people to recite it against their will might well do that.

What about singing God Bless America?

Again, don't be confuse. I have no problem if you sing it, or even if people choose to sing it at the baseball game. Singing God Bless America isn't analogous to the issue here. Requiring people to sing it before they receive their public high school diploma would be analogous, and I would have a problem with that.

For people that are so quick to complain about religious people being over-zealous, they sure are sensitive and offended by seemingly everything.

Traditionally, a huge component of those concerned with maintaining separation of Church and State are in fact religious people. Standing up for separation of Church and State is not the same thing as being "sensitive and offended by seemingly everything".

 

[thaiboxerken]

It's not just words, Joz. It's a message. It's a message to atheists that they aren't welcome or deserving of the same treatment as theists from the government.

 

[332nd]

Seriously? They're not saying you have to mean it. Just say it, it's only a word

Why? If a person does not believe, why should he/she "just say it"?

 

[Ausmerican]

Just words

Seriously? They're not saying you have to mean it. Just say it, it's only a word

Thank you for letting us all know what your word is worth. If it is worth nothing to you it is surely worth less to others.

 

[Aridas]

It's the illogic that rankles most with me, not the God stuff. An obligation to freely choose to make whatever promise they tell you to. It's nuts. It's insulting.

I'll agree with this, even if I would phrase it more as a oath that's freely given while under duress.

Either way, Joz is living up to my expectations of not really having much of an argument.

 

[squealpiggy]

In answer to the OP I'm of the opinion that adding extra requirements to receive something you already earned with your coursework is unfair and ridiculous and would not be acceptable in any other aspect of your life. You're not taking office or getting citizenship, you are receiving recognition of your academic achievements. It'd be like getting through a forty hour work week, going to your boss for your paycheque and being told you can't have it unless you tell him "I love you Boss Hogg!"

Words are the vessels of meaning and emotion.

I'm if during your mother's funeral somebody stood up and said vulgar things about her you wouldn't appreciate it.

I would just say "Oh dad..."

Bullying.

"All you have to do is stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself! Why are you hitting yourself?"

And you think that creating an oath is encouraging children to lie? Do you think the Pledge of Allegiance encourages children to lie too? What about singing God Bless America?

As a non-American yes, I find this pledge of allegiance and singing weird patriotic songs other than the National Anthem to be bizarre.

 

[Dancing David]

If the oath was to forsake God, would you be offended? After all,they're just words.

Yup!

 

[Dancing David]

Not at all. You're absolutely right.

Then the purpose of the oath is?

 

[Ziggurat]

Then the purpose of the oath is?

I think he already answered that:

Honestly, the entire oath is stupid.

If you thought Joz was defending the oath, then you haven't been paying close enough attention. He's mostly just been having fun with people who are overly outraged and easily riled. I mean, come on, how can anyone not see the humor in stuff like this?

WHERE'S YOUR NOT GOD NOW?

 

[uke2se]

I think he already answered that:

If you thought Joz was defending the oath, then you haven't been paying close enough attention. He's mostly just been having fun with people who are overly outraged and easily riled. I mean, come on, how can anyone not see the humor in stuff like this?

I see the attempt at humor. It fails to reach levels that can be called funny though.

 

[Joz]

I think there is nothing inherently wrong or bad about atheists. It just seems so wildly hypocritical that some of them (op) lash out against religious zealots infinitely more than religious people even think about atheists. I blame the whole anti-theist movement championed by Hitchens.

 

[Joz]

It's not just words, Joz. It's a message. It's a message to atheists that they aren't welcome or deserving of the same treatment as theists from the government.

No, it's really not.

 

[Ray Brady]

And you think that creating an oath is encouraging children to lie?

No. You do. You're the one who's encouraging people to take oaths they don't mean.

 

[thaiboxerken]

No, it's really not.

Then what is the purpose of the oath?

 

[Frozenwolf150]

Last I checked, isn't there a Commandment against swearing false oaths? If so, aren't these AZ legislators knowingly asking certain groups of people to violate this Commandment?

Seriously? They're not saying you have to mean it. Just say it, it's only a word

I agree, it's just a word, and words removed from context lose much of their power. I'd certainly love to see the same happen to the word "God." However, I have a question. Would you be opposed to students devising their own 4-word phrases to say at the end of this pledge? After all, you don't have to mean it. I for one would welcome this exercise in free expression.