Texas Repubs pass abortion bill

[xjx388]

No, you are being inconsistent. You are advocating the killing of human beigns at one point during pregrancy, but not at another.

No, I'm being practical. I realize that other people want to be able to kill their unborn; so, if we as a society are going to allow it: 1)Don't ask me to pay for it, 2)Kill it at a point where it isn't developed enough to suffer or have a chance at its own life.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Here's an idea: what if the majority of Americans wanted to reinstate slavery for blacks ? Would that be ok ?

Not only is his appeal to popular belief fallacy, he's skewing the data to support his assertion about popular belief.

Majority of americans are okay with unrestricted abortion for the 1st trimester. After that, most americans think abortions should be restricted, not banned.

 

[Belz...]

The point is that if a person wants there to be no chance they can make a baby, they shouldn't engage in the activity that makes babies.

No, that's not what you said. You said:

I don't believe people should engage in sexual intercourse if they don't want to have kids.

You implied that abstinence is the answer, to which I told you to **** off. If my wife gets pregnant despite our precautions, I will recommend abortion. It will, of course, be her choice in the end, but I am insulted at your insinuation there people should either not have sex at all, or deal with the pregnancy and devote the rest of their lives to a kid they don't want.

 

[Belz...]

No, I'm being practical.

Then be consistently practical: allow people to do what they will with their bodies.

I realize that other people want to be able to kill their unborn

You are revealing your true colours with your increasingly loaded sentences.

 

[xjx388]

I agree with your statements above: people should practice safe sex as the first and primary means of family planning.

Excellent.

But I don't see the argument justifying the view that people who do not practice safe sex should be denied abortion.

I don't think they should be denied. But abortion should be regulated.

Whether someone practices safe sex or is absolutely careless with sex partners has no connection to the accessibility of abortion.

Correct. It isn't about sex, it's about the life that grows in the womb. At what point do you value it? That determines how accessible abortion should be.

There's no magic value tied to taxonomic classification, so a fetus has no more value whether it belongs to my species or another.

There's no magic value to any point of the lifespan, only the value we assign to it at the point we assign it. So, at what point do you assign value?

And I don't think a strong argument exists to justify the view that a fetus is entitled to another person's blood and organs without that person's approval, at least not one in the past 500+ posts in this thread.

I think that if a person engages in sex, that person is accepting the risk that a pregnancy will result. That is a tacit "approval." But, if they get pregnant, that person then has 20 weeks in which to decide they don't want a baby. Beyond that point in Texas, the fetus' life must be protected and you have effectively given your approval.

 

[thaiboxerken]

No, it's about sex. Particularly punishing women who dare to have sex.

 

[xjx388]

Here's an idea: what if the majority of Americans wanted to reinstate slavery for blacks ? Would that be ok ?

Define OK.

OK is a relative term. I think it would be abhorrent. But it was the norm in human society until the last century or so.

Maybe you don't like to think about it, but there is no such thing as absolute right and wrong. Those concepts are only defined within the zeitgeist.

 

[xjx388]

Not only is his appeal to popular belief fallacy, he's skewing the data to support his assertion about popular belief.

Majority of americans are okay with unrestricted abortion for the 1st trimester. After that, most americans think abortions should be restricted, not banned.

It's not about popular belief, it's about the social spirit of the times. Polls help us take a measure. And recent polls show that most Americans would make abortion illegal after the 1st trimester. When that changes, then so will abortion laws.

 

[elbe]

It's not about popular belief, it's about the social spirit of the times. Polls help us take a measure. And recent polls show that most Americans would make abortion illegal after the 1st trimester. When that changes, then so will abortion laws.

While I'm not a big fan of the tyranny of the majority, Gallup seems to suggest that the pro-choice/pro-life divide has been pretty even so "majority" may be stretching it a bit, mayhaps.

 

[thaiboxerken]

It's not about popular belief, it's about the social spirit of the times. Polls help us take a measure. And recent polls show that most Americans would make abortion illegal after the 1st trimester. When that changes, then so will abortion laws.

Not illegal, but restricted. There is a huge difference. However, there is no difference between "social spirit of the times" and "popular opinion."

 

[Belz...]

Define OK.

You're clearly not interested in discussion. Goodbye.

 

[xjx388]

Not illegal, but restricted. [\quote]No. Most people want it completely illegal after the 1st trimester.

There is a huge difference.

Granted, most people allow for the special circumstances involved in rape, incest, threat to mom's life and defects in the fetus. So if by "restricted," you mean, "Illegal except for those limited circumstances," then sure.

However, there is no difference between "social spirit of the times" and "popular opinion."

There is a difference. It's subtle, but distinct. If you had been born in the 1700s in the US, you would have likely accepted the inferiority of black people as a given. That's because you would have been born into a certain worldview that influenced your opinions. That worldview is the zeitgeist.

 

[xjx388]

You're clearly not interested in discussion. Goodbye.

I am very much and it's a serious question/point. OK is relative; there is no absolute right and wrong. There is only agreement or disagreement on what constitutes right and wrong. Right now, most Americans disagree with abortion after the first trimester. More Americans think abortion is morally wrong at least some of the time. That is the framework under which we operate. If most people think abortion is morally wrong, why are you right?

I have yet to hear an actual argument from you. Your definition of "discussion," seems to be, "make some snarky remarks and then leave when challenged." If you want to leave, that's your right, but I'd really like to hear what you think about the issue -you know, actual arguments and debate.

 

[xjx388]

No, it's about sex. Particularly punishing women who dare to have sex.

Cite?

 

[Belz...]

I am very much and it's a serious question/point. OK is relative; there is no absolute right and wrong. There is only agreement or disagreement on what constitutes right and wrong.

Yeah, that's why I said you're not interested in discussion. Otherwise you would've defined ok for your and given an answer. As it stands you're content with quibbling about the definition of "ok", as if it could possibly be the word in my question that would be contentious.

 

[xjx388]

Yeah, that's why I said you're not interested in discussion. Otherwise you would've defined ok for your and given an answer. As it stands you're content with quibbling about the definition of "ok", as if it could possibly be the word in my question that would be contentious.

Originally Posted by Belz...
Here's an idea: what if the majority of Americans wanted to reinstate slavery for blacks ? Would that be ok ?

Define OK.

OK is a relative term. I think it would be abhorrent. But it was the norm in human society until the last century or so.

Maybe you don't like to think about it, but there is no such thing as absolute right and wrong. Those concepts are only defined within the zeitgeist.

I defined it right there and gave my answer. That answer reflects my larger argument that, right now, when we measure the zeitgeist through polling, we see that most people think abortion should be illegal after the first trimester except for certain limited circumstances. Asking me what is OK is the wrong question. Arguing for why the zeitgeist should change is a better approach.

 

[thaiboxerken]

There is a difference. It's subtle, but distinct. If you had been born in the 1700s in the US, you would have likely accepted the inferiority of black people as a given. That's because you would have been born into a certain worldview that influenced your opinions. That worldview is the zeitgeist.

No. There is absolutely no difference. Nice try though. Whether you're born in the 1700's or today, thinking that black people are inferior is still an opinion that is not founded in fact or logic.

 

[Belz...]

I defined it right there and gave my answer.

No you didn't. You tried to have it both ways by saying you wouldn't agree but that it was so some time ago. You also implied I had a black-and-white morality, which is not only an ad hominem but a silly dodge.

Put up or shut up: do you believe in the tyrrany of the majority, yes or no ?

 

[xjx388]

No. There is absolutely no difference. Nice try though. Whether you're born in the 1700's or today, thinking that black people are inferior is still an opinion that is not founded in fact or logic.

That's easy for you to say here in the 21st century. But at the time it was the fact and perfectly logical. Now we have all the facts.

What facts am I missing in forming my opinion about abortion?

ETA: Not to mention the fact that you are twisting what I responded to. I was pointing out the difference between the zeitgeist and public opinion.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Psst. Public opinion matters little in this discussion, even though you're wrong about the majority agreeing with your position.