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Texas Repubs pass abortion bill

In my opinion (one who has no dog in the hunt), he's got you. The ramblings are quite sensible. Neither are they ramblings.

His argument is nonsense and relies on two major flaws:

A. He doesn't understand what taxonomy is.

B. He doesn't understand that an organism and the parts of an organism are not the same thing.

Farther, his "thoughts and feelings" standard is problematic. People can lose both without going into a vegetative state. By this standard, someone who is concussed, having a seizure or even drinks too much is temporarily not a human. Needless to say, you cannot temporarily drop out of your species. Additionally, not all people think and feel in the same way. Sociopaths cannot feel altruistic empathy, does this mean they are not humans? People with autism see the world much differently than the rest of us, are they human? Of course, but it isn't clear that they are under his standard.

Perhaps more importantly, homo sapiens are not the only species of humans, they are one of more than a dozen known definitively or implied by the fossil record. It is quite likely that there were a lot more species we don't know about (yet). Where do they fit in here?

RandFan basis his belief on what a human is on what the other humans he sees and interacts with look like. Otherwise his tendency to look at pictures of organisms at different stages of development and conclude they can't be the same thing doesn't make sense. If, say, scientists cloned homo habilis out of extinction and RandFan were introduced to one, especially if not told what they were, he would conclude they are not a human. They would be too short, too hairy, their brows too large, their protruding jaw too extreme, their gait would be wrong and their chimp sized brain could never live up to his "thoughts and feelings" standard. He might accept that they were an ape but he would not accept that they were a human. But, of course, they would be just as much a human as he is.
 
Oh.. so context matters with food. But when it comes to abortion, a human is a human is a human.....

When it comes to taxonomy, you can never change species. I haven't even made an argument about abortion here, my entire point has been that the pro-life side has been using the term human in a biologically acceptable manner.
 
When it comes to taxonomy, you can never change species. I haven't even made an argument about abortion here, my entire point has been that the pro-life side has been using the term human in a biologically acceptable manner.

Not really. They've been using the term "human" to convey an image the the fetus, embryo, or zygote is just a little person.
 
Not really. They've been using the term "human" to convey an image the the fetus, embryo, or zygote is just a little person.

What you and RandFan have been calling being a human being is typically referred to as having personhood. It is a philosophical notion as well, but avoids the silliness of refusing to acknowledge that an organism is a member of its own species, "an embryo may be a human but it isn't a person yet."
 
I don't think any of the pro-choice side has said that a zygote is not of human species. However, to be a "member" of a club, doesn't one have to be a person?
 
I don't think any of the pro-choice side has said that a zygote is not of human species. However, to be a "member" of a club, doesn't one have to be a person?

Depends on how you define "person" and what the club is. To be a member of a species you have to be an organism, in fact, you cannot be an organism and not belong to a species. I don't think anyone thinks bacteria are people but they all belong to species.
 
It comes down to at what point we have a duty to preserve the life of the fetus. I understand the religious types believe the soul enters at conception, and that is why they want to start from that point--but that is not really a standard they can legally hold nonbelievers to.

So it falls into a question of the known biological properties of the fetus. What is the best sign that we have a duty to preserve the life? Conception is a poor choice--as about half of fertilized eggs fail to implant, either we should be trying to save the ones that didn't implant, or admit that stage isn't the time yet that the life needs individual legal protection.

My personal view is that it should come down to when brain activity develops. No, we can't draw an exact line, but if we draw it early enough we can be confident that it falls past that point.
 
Depends on how you define "person" and what the club is. To be a member of a species you have to be an organism, in fact, you cannot be an organism and not belong to a species. I don't think anyone thinks bacteria are people but they all belong to species.

True enough. But I value a person more than an organism that just happens to be of the human species.
 
True enough. But I value a person more than an organism that just happens to be of the human species.

Fair enough, what is a person is largely in the eye of the beholder.

Human rights issues would take an interesting turn if scientists ever start cloning our extinct human ancestors and cousins.
 
Fair enough, what is a person is largely in the eye of the beholder.

Human rights issues would take an interesting turn if scientists ever start cloning our extinct human ancestors and cousins.

I don't care for the sci-fi argument.

A person is an individual being with a personality.

Science and fact can help determine what is a person. Is a body with no brain a person? Is a person with a brain with no thought or activity a person. Is a dead body a person? Is a mass of cells with no brain a person? Those that argue at a zygote is a person are doing so largely due to some strange belief that there is a soul. A fetus can be considered a person at some stage of development, and is largely defined by brain activity.
 
I don't care for the sci-fi argument.

A person is an individual being with a personality.

Science and fact can help determine what is a person. Is a body with no brain a person? Is a person with a brain with no thought or activity a person. Is a dead body a person? Is a mass of cells with no brain a person? Those that argue at a zygote is a person are doing so largely due to some strange belief that there is a soul. A fetus can be considered a person at some stage of development, and is largely defined by brain activity.

At least we are getting somewhere now, what constitutes personhood is going to be opinion and context matters as well, especially in law.
 
That's a hell of a lot more difficult than passing a law. And you did not address my points about the fact we live in a republic. You failed to address tyranny of the majority. If what you are saying is true we would not need legislators. We would only need a plurality of votes for anything.

I'd rather not live in a country like that, to be honest.
 
But there's a bigger elephant in the room which is the fact, as evidenced by various polls throughout the last 50 years or so, that most Americans want abortions to be illegal after the 1st trimester.

Here's an idea: what if the majority of Americans wanted to reinstate slavery for blacks ? Would that be ok ?
 
**** you. I'll have sex with my wife for fun if I want to.
Not if she doesn't want to ;).

The point is that if a person wants there to be no chance they can make a baby, they shouldn't engage in the activity that makes babies. Intercourse always involves a risk of pregnancy. Sounds pretty elementary to me.

Further, If a married couple conceives while having sex for fun, I'd wager that the vast majority of them want keep the baby. Married couples who want to have sex for fun but hate kids and never want them should use BC like an IUD, tubial ligation or vasectomy.
 
The point is that if a person wants there to be no chance they can make a baby, they shouldn't engage in the activity that makes babies. Intercourse always involves a risk of pregnancy. Sounds pretty elementary to me.

Further, If a married couple conceives while having sex for fun, I'd wager that the vast majority of them want keep the baby. Married couples who want to have sex for fun but hate kids and never want them should use BC like an IUD, tubial ligation or vasectomy.
I agree with your statements above: people should practice safe sex as the first and primary means of family planning. But I don't see the argument justifying the view that people who do not practice safe sex should be denied abortion. Whether someone practices safe sex or is absolutely careless with sex partners has no connection to the accessibility of abortion.

There's no magic value tied to taxonomic classification, and a fetus has no more value whether it belongs to my species or another; so its not clear how a fetus's value (if any) is at all comparable to a rational adult. Nor is there any identifiable argument that a fetus's value is so strong that we have an overriding interest in nourishing the fetus on another person's blood and organs without that person's approval.
 
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