LDS

[AdMan]

The Book of Mormon contains internal evidence of its own claims.

The Book of Mormon is true because the Book of Mormon says it's true?

 

[Ray Agostini]

The Book of Mormon is true because the Book of Mormon says it's true?

Those claims, when weighed against external evidence, often match up to an astonishing degree. Combined, they present more than "Frontier fiction", or the "imagination" of a 23 year old "semi-literate" American "farm boy".

I suppose this isn't really relevant, but it's a quote I love:

"If God spare my life, before very long I shall cause a plough boy to know the scriptures better than you do!"

-- William Tyndale.

 

[Slowvehicle]

The Book of Mormon contains internal evidence of its own claims.

In other words, "You don't realize that the contents of the BoM are not evidence for the claims made in the BoM".

The things "recorded" in the NT are not evidence that the things in the NT happened.

ToMAYto, ToMAWHto.

Bruno went against "accepted" scientific theories of his day. While it is true that "the Church burned him":

So my rejection of unsupported claims, pending evidence, makes me...who? A cardinal? You would have a much stronger claim if you had use, say, Alan Turing. Or Curie. Or Franklin. Or Bakker. Or Wegener. Bruno was not burned because scientists disagreed with his ideas.

God has always revealed scripture by allegory and metaphor.

...except where it's supposed to be literal, right? Like, say, pre-Colombian steel swords...

(Also assumes facts not in evidence)

Do you believe Jesus' parables were literal?

No.

Do you think the parable of the Good Samaritan was literal?

No.

Seriously?

Yes.

It was convenient to the powerful message he wanted to convey to Pharisees of mind and prejudicial disposition, and because of that, the Jews (his own people) considered him a "heretic".

No. It was ascribed to him half a century after his death, edited or redacted into the collection of the other sayings ascribed (with very little evidence, again, after half a century, by second- or third-hand witnesses, at best) to him, for reasons seen fit by the redactors.

Who are the "Inka"?

This is intentionally humorous, right?

I see enough inspiration in "Mormon scripture" to discard "alternative theories". Joseph Smith was a very complex character

I see enough evidence in reality to discard superstition.

 

[AdMan]

Those claims, when weighed against external evidence, often match up to an astonishing degree. Combined, they present more than "Frontier fiction", or the "imagination" of a 23 year old "semi-literate" American "farm boy".

I suppose this isn't really relevant, but it's a quote I love:

You're right, it's not relevant.

And your circular argument is far from convincing.

 

[Empress]

Hello, Ray! Always glad to talk to a jack Mormon!

Slang term that usu denotes a Mormon who doesn't practice the religion. (Drinks alcohol, smokes, irregular church attendance, etc.) Less commonly, it might refer to someone like me who was raised Mormon but was never baptized, although that usage, in my experience, is rare.

 

[Ray Agostini]

Slang term that usu denotes a Mormon who doesn't practice the religion. (Drinks alcohol, smokes, irregular church attendance, etc.) Less commonly, it might refer to someone like me who was raised Mormon but was never baptized, although that usage, in my experience is rare.

Jack Mormon:

The term Jack Mormon is a slang term originating in nineteenth-century America. It was originally used to describe a person who was not a baptized member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints but who was friendly to Church members and Mormonism, sympathized with them, and/or took an active interest in their belief system. Sometime in the early- to mid-twentieth century, however, the term began to refer to an individual deemed by adherents of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) to be an inactive or lapsed member of the LDS Church who, despite his personal religious viewpoint, maintained good relations with and positive feelings toward the LDS Church.

I'd proudly wear the term, because I love Mormons, and I love the LDS Church.

Can't say the feeling is mutual. LOL. I've been called "heretic", "apostate", "darkened in mind", and so on, but I cherish the memories.

 

[Pixel42]

I've spent 38 years examining the Book of Mormon, as a believer, as a critic, as a doubter, as one seeking the truth.

What a waste of time. It takes at most a few weeks to discover that it's not just a fake, but a very clumsy fake. If you look at the evidence with an open mind, that is. I guess if you're determined to find ways to explain away all the anachronisms, though, that would take a lot longer.

I believe that it is inspired by God

For what purpose? You say you think it's revelatory, what precisely do you think it reveals? Please quote the verses you think revealed new information or new spiritual insights.

If everyone in our society lived by the teachings of the Book of Mormon, there would be "no more sorrow", and we would have a perfect society.

Again, please quote the verses which would ensure a perfect society, if everybody lived by them.

BTW this thread is about the LDS, not new (or old) atheism. Continue to try to derail it and the mods will intervene.

 

[Pup]

(in reference to being a sinner)

That's not a "belief", it's a fact!

Well, yes, every person has broken the rules of hundreds of religions and can therefore be labelled a sinner in relationship to those religions, and that's a "fact" in a dictionary-definition sort of way. But that seems trivially true.

I'm a muggle. That's not a "belief," it's a fact--in the same dictinary-definition sense. But it's not evidence that there really is a Harry Potter world, any more than saying that someone is a "sinner" is evidence that there really are behaviors that a god or any similar supernatural thing disapproves of or that can be forgiven by a god.

 

[catsmate]

Leaving Mormonism had a number of costs. It also had a number of benefits. Coffee being chief among them.

Meh, it's over-rated. Now tea and coffee cake...........

Steel in the Book of Mormon

Oh dear jeebus that's just pathetic. Rather like xians trying to explain away the bible stating pi equals three.

The book of mormon is a book written by men who loved power, prestige, money and women.

Well most "holy" books are/were, religion is mainly a tool for social control.

<snip>
Were they relevant? Consider for example one of Ray's link regarding Israelites using Egyptian. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't read anything that said the artifacts in question were traceable to the Israelites. Without that explicit connection, the links were completely irrelevant and did not address the criticism quoted at all.

I suspect that, like most religious apologetics, such material is designed to cloud the issue (and hide the problems with the "holy" books) rather than actually explain the problem.

Also, there are serious doubts as to the neutrality of the sites linked.

I wouldn't even give them that much benefit of the doubt, they're pro-Mormon propaganda pure and simple.

Lapsed Mormons or those friendly to the cult.

 

[Pup]

I've spent 38 years examining the Book of Mormon, as a believer, as a critic, as a doubter, as one seeking the truth.

I believe that it is inspired by God, and I have traced this back to numerous experiences I've had, and numerous confirmations, not only by way "spirit", but also by the intellect.

What strikes me as odd, is the idea that of all the millions of writings by humans over thousands of years, a god would step in and give factual potentially-verifiable supernaturally-sourced information just that one time--or two times, if one also believes in the literal truth of the Bible.

I don't mean commandments like "do unto others" which pop up in many cultures, but specific historic facts.

To someone who already has been exposed to the LDS religion, I'm sure it must seem like a central thing that needs dealt with. But to outsiders like me, it seems odd to spend so much of one's life on a particular book in order to learn about the early Americas, considering that 1) a supernatural source of information is often claimed by people, from psychics to dowsers, but has yet to proven to provide accurate information beyond the rate of chance or intelligent guesses and 2) a brief look at the Book of Mormon shows mistakes that contradict current knowledge, so it doesn't seem a reliable avenue to explore, compared to all the other available ways of studying the early Americas.

In other words, starting with the premise that the Book of Mormon is true and then trying to explain what appear to be mistakes, seems backwards, if the goal is to learn about the early Americas--and there are lots of scholars interested in doing that.

If the goal is to confirm one's preconceived belief that the Book of Mormon is true, then it's the ideal way to proceed. But non-Mormons don't have that goal, so they (we) have no motivation to try to explain the contradictions. We can just say, well, of course it has mistakes--it's historical fiction.

It would be like a historian spending decades studying the book Gone with the Wind, not as historical fiction, but to learn facts about the American Civil War, because he had spiritual confirmation that it was at least as accurate as all the evidence available from primary sources. Historians would just be shaking their heads and wondering why.

 

[Blue Mountain]

I've spent 38 years examining the Book of Mormon ....

I'm going to jump in briefly to point you to this thread:

Miracle of the Shroud / Blood on the shroud

In it, one of the regular contributors to the thread says he spent many years studying the Shroud of Turin. It turns out he learned nothing useful from his studies, because science has shown the Shroud to be a medieval fake.

I put The Book of Mormon in the same category. I could spend thirty years studying The Silmarillion; does that mean it's true and contains lessons for building a perfect society?

 

[RandFan]

I've spent 38 years examining the Book of Mormon, as a believer, as a critic, as a doubter, as one seeking the truth.

I spent more time than that. I did not reject Mormonism until my mid 40's. I did so because of my cognitive dissonance. When I was on my mission I learned that the Joseph Smith derived his temple rituals from the Masons. I then learned of all of the silly anachronistic errors in the BOM. I told people that it was the most correct book on Earth. It demonstrably wasn't.

I believe that it is inspired by God, and I have traced this back to numerous experiences I've had, and numerous confirmations, not only by way "spirit", but also by the intellect.

Horses predate humans in the new world. The claims of steel in the New World predate the time frame of the BOM. BTW: the "spirit" told the people who flew planes into the twin towers that god wanted them to kill people.

If everyone in our society lived by the teachings of the Book of Mormon, there would be "no more sorrow", and we would have a perfect society.

Give me a teaching in the BoM that is not also in the Bible and tell me how that would improve society?

 

[kmortis]

Please keep it to the topic of the Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints, aka Mormons and the evidence & arguments behind their beliefs. If you want to discuss other belief systems, or non-belief system (as the case may be) either fins another thread that is already discussing it or start one of your own.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: kmortis

 

[sackett]

That was me in my Old Western phase

"Jack Mormon" is used out west to denote a lapsed Saint. He may have lapsed out of boredom, or because the LDS bosses excommunicated him, or out of disgust -- or perhaps because he just plain wised up.

Some jack Mormons have even read No Man Knows My History. It's still, whatever Ray may contend, the best bio of Joe Smiff. It needs little if any updating, because, well, you know, the facts of the case are pretty well established:

1. Con artist gulls some rubes.
2. More rubes sign up.
3. Con artist (helped by his father and brothers, who know a good thing when they see it) gets ambitious.
4. Lotsa chicks!
5. Power!
6. Con artist goes too far and gets mob-killed.
7. Plenty of rubes left, so Go Brigham!
8. Utah. And Australia.
9. My head hurts.

 

[halleyscomet]

Coffee May Lower Suicide Risk By 50 Percent, Harvard Study Indicates

The Harvard study joins a growing body of scientific evidence, which has provided confirmation of the health benefits of coffee.

Last year alone, published research linked moderate coffee intake with delayed Alzheimer's onset, lowered risk of heart failure and reduced risk of basil cell carcinoma -- the most common type of skin cancer.

In related news, Utah is the most depressed state in the union, and has the seventh highest suicide rate.

Depression and suicide rates state by state

The LDS church has relaxed its guidelines on caffeinated beverages, allowing cola but not coffee or tea. I wonder if there will be a corresponding shift in the state's suicide and depression rates as a result.

 

[RandFan]

Coffee May Lower Suicide Risk By 50 Percent, Harvard Study Indicates



In related news, Utah is the most depressed state in the union, and has the seventh highest suicide rate.

Depression and suicide rates state by state

The LDS church has relaxed its guidelines on caffeinated beverages, allowing cola but not coffee or tea. I wonder if there will be a corresponding shift in the state's suicide and depression rates as a result.

Utah also has the highest rate of porn consumption per capita.

Utah: Online Porn Capital of America? | PCWorld

 

[RandFan]

Coffee May Lower Suicide Risk By 50 Percent, Harvard Study Indicates

Here is another interesting factoid. Many Mormons have died of water born diseases. It's reported that god told Joseph Smith not to drink hot drinks. Hot drinks would have killed the water born diseases. Now, to be sure, had Smith never said anything against hot drinks, there would have still been a lot of deaths due to water born diseases because those who drink coffee and tea also drink water plain. But it is reasonable to assume that if coffee were not prohibited some percentage of those who suffered dysentery and death would have been spared.

But here is the really curious thing, if god were interested in the health of Mormons, why did he not tell them to boil all of their drinking water? That's what western nations tell poor people around the world (or filter the water). God could have told them to allow the water to cool before drinking it. That would have eased the suffering and lowered the death rate considerably.

Guess god is a bit of rascal. Perhaps he found it funny to watch people die in such an awful way. So he simply told them to lower their consumption of meat (which we never hear about today) and told them to avoid alcohol and hot drinks. Like any possible negative side effects of coffee and tea are worse that dysentery and death.

 

[RandFan]

Utah also has the highest rate of porn consumption per capita.

Utah: Online Porn Capital of America? | PCWorld

BTW: It's fair (pun not intended) to hear the response from FAIR, Mormon Apologists, to these kind of stats.

XII. The LDS Church and Utah Statistics

I think the site makes some very good points. There are many advantages to being Mormon. FAIR also also argues that god made his promises to those who followed his commandments. Many Mormons do not strictly adhere to the rules of the Church.

 

[Stomatopoda]

Utah also has the highest rate of porn consumption per capita.

Utah: Online Porn Capital of America? | PCWorld

To be fair, since that statistic is taken from subscription information, it could just mean that they have the lowest rates of porn piracy.

 

[pakeha]

Book of Mormon Anachronisms: Pre-Christian Christianity

Hi, Ray.
From your link
"It should be remembered that the Book of Mormon is a translation of an ancient Nephite text. The English word "Christian" is not the word that was originally on the Nephite record, but is the English word that Joseph Smith used when translating the original Nephite word. The word "Christian" simply means "Christ-believer" in common use and in the Book of Mormon. We don't know what the original Nephite word was for "Christian", but it signified something like "Christ-believer." The word "Christ" is a Greek word that means the same thing as the Hebrew word "Messiah." The concept of a future Messiah was taught in ancient Israel, and anyone who believed those prophecies would have been a "Messiah-believer". Therefore, all pre-Christian era Israelites who believed in the coming Messiah/Christ were Christians in this sense. This is the sense we find in the Book of Mormon.

Lehi and his family left the Old World carrying with them the plates of brass that they obtained from Laban (1 Nephi 4). These plates contained "the prophecies of the holy prophets, from the beginning, even down to the commencement of the reign of Zedekiah; and also many prophecies which have been spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah." (1 Nephi 5:13). Therefore, the Nephites knew about the ancient prophecies of the future Messiah/Christ. Furthermore, the Book of Mormon records many more prophecies by New World prophets of the coming Messiah/Christ. All those who believed these prophecies were "Messiah-believers" or, equivalently, "Christ-believers." The English word that Joseph Smith used to convey this meaning was "Christian." "

Do you really take this seriously?