Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[TheL8Elvis]

George is walking south on RVC as evidenced by the wind. Trayvon saying "now he's behind me" Implying a switch in orientation.

First, if Martin said, "Why are you following me?" [and Zimmerman was, although his supporters contend it was inadvertent], I think that implies he was "behind him."

I agree, it does imply GZ was behind him at some point. I even agree GZ actually was behind him ay some point.

I don't agree that it means Dan can infer GZ was walking south on RVC, or that there was any "switch in orientation"

Did Martin's father say at first, "I don't know, " if that was his son's voice or did he say "No?" and later decide to lie?

I don't know either.

The fact that 4 LEOs claim they heard him say "no" makes me believe he actually said no. How about you ?

Aren't you mostly making assumptions as well?

I don't think so. Mostly I am pointing out the flaws and holes in Dan Os narrative.

Again, if Zimmerman provoked the final confrontation he was guilty of murder. If Trayvon Martin provoked it, in the manner in which George Zimmerman describes it, than it was a justifiable shooting.

It has already been pointed out this is incorrect/

Only there's very little evidence to go on. I'm saying there's no real way to know. That we will never know conclusively what really happened. There's some reason to believe half of the jurors initially wanted to convict Zimmerman. I believe the jury mostly ruled based on the lack of evidence.

And ?

That no matter how anyone denigrates Trayvon Martin, his father, Rachel Jeantel, the media, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, the NAACP etc etal, that does not change the fact:

There is not enough evidence to know conclusively what happened. There just isn't.

No, but that doesn't mean any particular fantasy put forth is a viable narrative of possible events.

The fact is, the prosecution didn't even try to sell the jury on a narrative of what they think happened. They tried simply to discredit GZ version, and failed.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Here is your claim:

Or maybe the article you are linking is the media campaign. It seems to be falsified by the news link in the original OP of the thread you are posting in right now.

I then pointed out the OP didn't come about until after the 7th, and asked you a question:

The original GZ thread was started March 8th.

It linked to this article:
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/police-man-neighborhood-watch-shoots-kills-teen-vi/nK8LR/

But it was only in the news because of the PR campaign started the day before (march 7)

How does that falsify the article ? I think it rather proves the article correct.

You replied:

That's funny. When I click on the link to that article it says:

Updated: 10:38 a.m. Tuesday, March 13, 2012 | Posted: 4:32 p.m. Wednesday, Feb. 29, 2012​

Maybe there is something wrong with your browser.

I know when the article in the OP was dated. You simply deflected and avoided answering my question and backing up your claim.

The Washington Post article never claimed there were no local story written about the incident. That would be absurd. Clearly, there were. What was claimed was that the story didn't gain national attention until after the media campaign started by the Martins on the 7th of March.

And lo and behold, on the 8th we got a post here at JREF about the incident. After the media campaign got the story national attention.

So my question (again) is:

How does the OP falsify the article in the Washington post?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Zimmerman's father is white, what else would he be called?

Zimmerman's father is white mother is Hispanic , what else would he be called?

representativepress, if you are getting your info the TCH, you're getting a completely racist POV. That site is internet poison.

KatieG, if you are getting your info the JQ you're getting a completely racist POV. That site is internet poison.

 

[Dissolution]

How many times did the pathologist say that Zimmerman's head was slammed against the concrete sidewalk? Were his injuries life threatening?

What the pathologist actually said is that George took a few hits. He didn't show evidence of the MMA style pounding the GZ supports seem to believe happened. He pointed out that Trayvon's hoodie wasn't against his body when the fatal shot was fired, but that doesn't prove Trayvon intended to beat George to death. George assumed it because in his mind, a black teenager is an ******* who will beat you to death if given a chance.

Edited by Gaspode: 

Edited for moderated thread.

"The medical evidence is consistent with Mr. Zimmerman's statement," Di Miao.

All of the evidence says that he told the truth. Your opinion says otherwise.

This is simple physics. Wind noises in a microphone are related to the effective wind speed. When you walk or run into the wind, the effective wind speed is your speed plus the speed of the wind. When you walk or run with the wind, the effective wind speed is the wind speed minus your speed.

And that reflects upon the inconsistency in your version how, exactly?
First you had him running into the wind, then walking with it.
The change of direction would actually suit his version, but not your one, where you have him continue to pursue Martin.

 

[Max_mang]

Is that why fistfights between teenaged boys so often end in death?

Most teenage fights are broken up by other students or adults, but it can and does happen:
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/137056/fight-before-teen's-death-may-have-been-filmed

http://www.wkyc.com/news/article/26...eath-of-Warrensville-Heights-teen-after-fight

One of those links is about teenage GIRLS fighting. And there are plenty of incidents of grown men dying or having brain damage from one punch, much less a sustained beating.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Obese George in work boots was running? I think not.

At the time of the shooting, George weighed about 100 pounds less than the blimp that recently appeared in court. He was also working out with a Mixed Martial Arts class 3 times a week.

And yet he was still clinically obese as testified to by the PA, lindzee Folgate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3VpKnQ4fMt4

 

[Kestrel]

Most teenage fights are broken up by other students or adults, but it can and does happen:
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/137056/fight-before-teen's-death-may-have-been-filmed

http://www.wkyc.com/news/article/26...eath-of-Warrensville-Heights-teen-after-fight

One of those links is about teenage GIRLS fighting. And there are plenty of incidents of grown men dying or having brain damage from one punch, much less a sustained beating.

Out of millions of fistfights a year, a few end up being deadly. Therefore it's justified to end a fistfight using deadly force, assuring that a far more of them end in death?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

If you would just read my narative where I provided the numbers I won't have to repeat myself.

Just link to which post you provided numbers in, I'll review it.

You could. Trayvon was walking through a death trap set by George and never made it home.

Claims like above are why it's difficult to have a dialogue sometimes.

<snip>...The best decision would be to find a location to hide with multiple exits. One of the paths between the houses with bushes for cover would be suitable.

T'was a dark and stormy night...

Is it not an established fact that George did not see Trayvon when he crossed the cut-through to RVC?. If you dispute that, you should take it up with George.

This is worth discussing further.

I agree, T'was a dark and stormy night...
I agree, it is an established fact that George did not see Trayvon when he crossed the cut-through to RVC?.

But that raises quite a few questions.

Why do you believe GZ did not see TM ?

Didn't GZ have a "tactical flashlight" to use to find TM ?

Was TM hiding in the bushes ? Or was it so dark, TM could just stand there on the dog walk and watch GZ walk by ?

Remember, his car headlights were on. shining down the east/west part of the dog walk.

How many times are you going to play the selective quoting game?

That's a bit of a loaded question. I am not selectively quoting, I am providing links to RJs sworn statement. You are the one not providing a basis for your fictional dialogues.

She and the Martin family have nothing to gain, nothing left to loose.

I think having GZ found guilty and punished is certainly something they have to gain. They would probably even call it "justice"

Unlike George who was fighting for his freedom and a several hundred thousand dollar bonus if he were to be successful in a SYG immunity hearing. You don't accept her statement only because you don't want to accept her statement. I don't even need her statement because it was George himself that said he was walking to find a street sign.

Not far up thread I wrote why George would have dropped his keys after the shooting. You should read what I said instead of making things up. There may have even been a witness but I need to research that further.

I did read that. It requires so much speculation ans so many assumptions, I dismissed it.

Could be. Only one witness actually saw them running one after the other but towards the tee.

Who are you referring to ? Bahadoors sister who wasn't even called to testify ?

You're the one that is saying the dialog is unreliable.

No, I am saying your version of the dialogue is wrong, and providing evidence for my claim.

I didn't transcribe this tape myself and I haven't seen the official transcript if even one exists. I did suggest early on that we should be building a common wiki with the known facts so we would at least be debating from a common basis. That at least is what I believe skeptics would do instead of playing gotcha games arguing over trivia. What I probably need to do is find a site where skeptics hang out and debate issues.

Skeptics who would provide evidence for their claims ?

That sounds like an important interview. Do you happen to know where I can find a recording of it?

Be specific, which interview ? Jahvaris Fulton ?
Sure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MhxsOE374q4

 

[WildCat]

For those of you that keep hammering about what GZ said, this is what he said to the dispatcher on the NEN call:

"It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about."

GZ never said TM was looking in windows on the NEN call. If he said anything else later on, he was most likely embellishing his tale.

So he was "looking about" without actually looking at anything?

 

[WildCat]

Because the wind noise reduced considerably when he was told by the not-911 to stop following (in so many words).

Obviously.

OK, so how fast do you estimate he was running? I asked this before, no one seems to have an answer. Bonus points if you can approximate how fast the wind has to be to make such wind noise, and how you rule out things like the area at the "T" was sheltered from the wind.

I assume you would have us believe that the wind just coincidentally died down?

Perhaps.

There's the "there are no coincidences" thinking that has driven conspiracy theorists forever.

 

[Kestrel]

And yet he was still clinically obese as testified to by the PA, lindzee Folgate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3VpKnQ4fMt4

If she testified to that Zimmerman was clinically obese, it wasn't in that video.

 

[triforcharity]

On what bases did you presume that Trayvon would suddenly decide to beat a man to death?

The basis that the evidence that was admitted in court, and testified to by Dr. Vincent Di Maio, and in his EXPERT opinion, as a Forensic Pathologist, saw evidence of 6 distinct impacts with an immovable solid object, consistent with concrete.

Why should we take your opinion, over his expert opinion?

 

[Kestrel]

So he was "looking about" without actually looking at anything?

Going up to the window of a house and peering inside would be considered suspicious behavior. As would peering inside car windows. Walking up to houses that appear to be unoccupied and checking the doors would be suspicious behavior.

So what made George decide this was one of those ******** who alway get away and not just some kid talking on the phone and taking his time going home? Was that decision based on behavior or age, clothing and skin color?

If I recall correctly, during his call to the police just before this one George also followed the suspect but didn't get out of his vehicle. Does anyone know if that ******* got away? Perhaps George decided that he needed to be more proactive.

 

[Max_mang]

Out of millions of fistfights a year, a few end up being deadly. Therefore it's justified to end a fistfight using deadly force, assuring that a far more of them end in death?

The question was whether a fistfight can/does ever end in death. The answer is yes it can and does.

As for what's justified, that is situation-specific and there are laws regarding it. Juries then go over the evidence and the laws and make a decision case by case.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

If she testified to that Zimmerman was clinically obese, it wasn't in that video.

No, I didn't intend to find the exact spot in her testimony where she said it.

But, since you would like to know, here is a link to the specific time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=YNBAwMm4UOM&t=1304
(it was in the third video of her testimony)

 

[boooeee]

For those of you that keep hammering about what GZ said, this is what he said to the dispatcher on the NEN call:

"It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about."

GZ never said TM was looking in windows on the NEN call. If he said anything else later on, he was most likely embellishing his tale.

Not quite. Here is a link to the transcript of the call (I think the source is Mother Jones).

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. …
Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a
real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can
give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or
he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking
about.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.
Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?
Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or
sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring…
Dispatcher: OK, he's just walking around the area…
Zimmerman: …looking at all the houses.

He doesn't say windows specifically but he does mention that he is looking at houses.

 

[ABC10]

I was very interested in Charles Barkley's comments. I think what happened was that egged on by Rachael, Martin decided to do a little gay bashing on George.

 

[Noztradamus]

Remember, his car headlights were on. shining down the east/west part of the dog walk.

Do we know this? Do we even know exactly where George's car was parked before someone removed it?

 

[Upchurch]

So he was "looking about" without actually looking at anything?

Whoa. Are you suggesting that "looking about", as one might do walking down the street, is the same thing as "looking in windows", which I take as walking up to a window and, you know, looking in?

 

[RepresentativePress]

How many times did the pathologist say that Zimmerman's head was slammed against the concrete sidewalk? Were his injuries life threatening?

"The fact that there were only two small cuts to the back of the head does not mean his head did not strike the concrete, Dr. Di Maio said.

Head injuries do not necessarily cause visible bleeding, he said. The bleeding often occurs inside the skull, which is why CT scans are used on people with head injuries.

“Everyone has fallen and hit their head, and you don’t get lacerations,” Dr. Di Maio said. “You can get severe head trauma actually without any marks on the head. Or you can get marks, lacerations and contusions and have head trauma.”" http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/10/u...s-he-was-shot-expert-says.html?pagewanted=all

And even the prosecution's Dr. Rao admitted the injuries could have come from multiple blows: "But under cross- examination by Mark O'Mara, one of Mr. Zimmerman's lawyers, Dr. Rao conceded that Mr. Zimmerman's injuries could have come from multiple blows." http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/03/u...man-trial-ask-jury-to-disregard-comments.html

The point is it is traumatic to have you head slammed on the sidewalk and you can very much be in fear for your life and panicked that the next blow could be lie ending because of brain injury. You can be dazed too.

Martin's text messages reveal a violent "gangster" as he described himself. he recordings and the witness are evidence that Martin would not stop assaulting him even after Zimmerman was screaming and even after the neighbor yelled fro him to stop.
Apparently Zimmerman "aint breed nuff 4" Martin in the mind of the self described "gangster"
How longer should Zimmerman have waited and allowed Martin to continue beating him?
Also, I just watched videos in never saw before from the defense website with Martin laughing watching a fight, seems he really enjoys fights.

MARTIN: Tired nd sore
wat happen tah yuhh ??
MARTIN: Fight
Y !?
MARTIN: Cause man dal ***** snitched on me
Bac y yun always fightingg man, yu got suspended ?
MARTIN: Naw we thumped afta skool in a duckd off spot
Ohh, Well Damee
MARTIN: I lost da 1st round but I won da 2nd nd 3rd
Ohh So It Wass 3 Rounds ? Damee well at least yu aonn lol but yuu needa stop fightingg bae Forreal'
MARTIN: Naw im not done wit fool..... he gone hav 2 see me a again
Nooo bac Stop, you aint gonn bee satisfied till yuh get suspended again huh ?
MARTIN: Naw but he aint breed nuff 4 me, only his nose..... but afta dat im done

The guy Martin was fighting didn't bleed enough for him! Looks like a few people here share Martin's concern of wanting to see more injury.

Martin's indulgence in violence clearly had a friend worried, the text messages also "contain a haunting warning from a friend: "Boy don’t get one planted in ya chest," the friend writes. The text came three months before Trayvon was shot, the Miami Herald reports. The same friend earlier said Trayvon was "turning into a lil hoodlum." " http://www.newser.com/story/168441/trayvons-texts-reveal-fistfights-eerie-warning.html