Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Dan O.]

...
This became what it is because of Julison's initial media pitches. http://articles.washingtonpost.com/...artin-story-george-zimmerman-unarmed-teenager

Or maybe the article you are linking is the media campaign. It seems to be falsified by the news link in the original OP of the thread you are posting in right now.

 

[Mike!]

As hard as this is to believe, I haven't seen it mentioned yet.
It was raining.
GZ was IN his truck.
The windows would have been rain soaked, plus it was dark outside.
Not exactly ideal conditions for seeing what's outside the truck and a fairly good reason to get out to see what's going on better. And wipers only clean a portion of the windshield, so turning them on would only help a little bit, in one direction.

 

[Dissolution]

I covered the timing of the crossing in an earlier post.

Are you saying that George was soo stupid that he didn't know where the street signs were in his own neighborhood? The sign is right there on the corner at the end of the block where the streets cross. It's an easy walk and there is plenty of time so george doesn't even have to rush. Plus, he's walking with the wind so no more wind noise in the phone. If George were just standing there on the sidewalk like a potted palm with nowhere to go, he would be turning around occasionally and we would hear the wind again. No wind sounds means that he must be walking south.

You claimed earlier that the wind noises were from him running.
Now it's from the wind and they stop because he's walking with it.
Inconsistent and baseless.

We also have the time from the telephone log.

For which there's very little unaccounted time missing, if any, and the timing is rounded up to the nearest minute.

Consistent with doesn't say that is exactly what George's face would look like if it were being pounded on for a full minute. Without setting up the experiment for a demonstration that is. Nobody wants to do that though. I am satisfied with comparing George's face to those of actual beating victims and noting that George is relatively unscathed.

You're disagreeing with the forensic pathologist.
I'm going to go with his opinion over yours, I'm afraid.

 

[newyorkguy]

That's right about the media and what people need to understand about this case is how the media was pitched the false narrative in the first place and that was done by a PR firm with an agenda. People need to know the calculated campaign to make it about race can be traced to a PUBLIC RELATIONS FIRM which pitched the Zimmerman/Martin story to news outlets with those out of date photos of Martin & the false narratives of a "white Zimmerman"! "A pivotal, if little-known, figure in the Martin story’s development was Ryan Julison, an Orlando public relations executive who began working with the Martin family at the behest of its attorneys, Benjamin Crump and Natalie Jackson." Julison's faceboook boasts he worked with the media & links to stories he pushed with initial false claims of "Zimmerman is white." "Worked with CBS This Morning on the story of Trayvon Martin," he declares as he links to his accomplishments at spinning the story.

This became what it is because of Julison's initial media pitches. http://articles.washingtonpost.com/...artin-story-george-zimmerman-unarmed-teenager

There are many stories that get pushed but unless they resonate with the public they quickly disappear. You're putting "Zimmerman is white," in quotes but who are you quoting? You imply it's on Ryan Julison's Facebook page but curious (link) I looked and I don't see that comment.

Are you suggesting the Martin family wasn't sincerely outraged? Their 17-year-old son had been shot and killed by a 28-year-old man. Martin, who was not armed with any weapon much less a gun, had not at least until the very last moments of the encounter broken any law. Yet a simple trip to a convenience store resulted in his death. As has also been said, I think this story brought home to America a special fear black parents have:

While most parents are up at night wondering how to protect their children from the uncontrollable like drunk drivers or muggings, Trayvon's parents, my parents and parents of black males across the country are also living in fear that their children won't come home because someone thought they were dangers to the community.

Link

The Martin's attorney told a rally in Sanford that

"George Zimmerman is every parent's worst nightmare … passing judgment on who can and who can't be in his neighborhood. If you kill an unarmed child you should be arrested."

Link

I think these issues are part of the reason this case resonated with so many people. And still does.

 

[Dissolution]

I think that RP is railing against the addition or at least overemphasis of any racial aspect to the case, NYG.

I have a feeling that GZ would've become either Hispanic or non-white to some of those who have spoken out against him had he been on the receiving end of the bullet and the shooter was white.
There seemed to be an attempt to get him to fit into a certain stereotype right from the off, for me.

The same charges could equally be applied to those in the non-mainstream press attempting to demonize TM though, I'll admit.

 

[Kestrel]

You're disagreeing with the forensic pathologist.
I'm going to go with his opinion over yours, I'm afraid.

How many times did the pathologist say that Zimmerman's head was slammed against the concrete sidewalk? Were his injuries life threatening?

What the pathologist actually said is that George took a few hits. He didn't show evidence of the MMA style pounding the GZ supports seem to believe happened. He pointed out that Trayvon's hoodie wasn't against his body when the fatal shot was fired, but that doesn't prove Trayvon intended to beat George to death. George assumed it because in his mind, a black teenager is an ******* who will beat you to death if given a chance.

Edited by Gaspode: 

Edited for moderated thread.

 

[Kestrel]

You claimed earlier that the wind noises were from him running.
Now it's from the wind and they stop because he's walking with it.

This is simple physics. Wind noises in a microphone are related to the effective wind speed. When you walk or run into the wind, the effective wind speed is your speed plus the speed of the wind. When you walk or run with the wind, the effective wind speed is the wind speed minus your speed.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

He didn't say he was looking for a sign, he said he was looking for an address.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=X_2NeMrGCvg#t=497s

There are addresses on every house. He didn't even need to get out of his truck.

How many times must we have this discussion. A street address is not useful without a street name.

YET AGAIN:
https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=1025
Singleton: Then does, do you say he ran?
Zimmerman: Yes.
Singleton: Then you get out of your car and run after him.
Zimmerman: I didn’t run after him, no. I walked to find the street name, or a street sign. And he had already run, cut out between the houses. So I knew that, if I walked straight through that little sidewalk, I knew that that was my street that I lived on.

He had more than sufficient time to have gotten over to the other street and read the address while the dispatcher was still on the phone. The claim that he was looking for an address is thus demonstraitably bogus.

I don't see how your simply claiming "he had sufficient time" demonstrates it was bogus.
Did he immediately walk over there ?
How fast did he walk ?
Did he stop while he was walking ?

Should I likewise assert that JRs claim that TM was walking back from 7/11 is demonstrably bogus, he had more than sufficient time to make it home form 7/11, yet never did ?

The cut-through is a wide open space. If George was there he would be able to see that there was no one in earshot to overhear him giving his address to the dispatcher if he talked softly. George therefore was in another place where someone could be hiding close by like walking south on RVC where there are parked cars.

George is walking south on RVC as evidenced by the wind.

So now the wind somehow lets you know where GZ is ?

Your assumptions are just that, assumptions. And not very good ones.

If GZ was able to see, where was TM when GZ was initially walking down toward and past the TEE ?

How is it GZ walked by without seeing him ?

Trayvon saying "now he's behind me" Implying a switch in orientation.

Your assumption is just that, an assumption. And not even based on the actual dialogue RJ relayed:

BDLR: OK..um…and then what happened?
Dee Dee: And then he told me like the guy was getting close..like..and he told me the guy was
getting real close to him. The next I hear, “What are you following me for?

BTW, do you really think, months later, she remembered word-for-word what TM said ?

Her excuse of not telling crump everything is preposterous. "The wasn't the law, so I didn't have to tell them" is a bunch of crap. Then when she was supposed to tell the truth, she lied about things anyway.

Her credibility is completely suspect. Her statements are just as self-serving as GZ.

The location of Trayvon's phone and George's flashlight marking the start of the confrontation well south of the tee.

So, in your mind, GZ, criminal mastermind, planted his small key and flashlight back at the TEE after he shot TM, so he could then lie about where the fight happened.

And all the witnesses who say the altercation started at the Tee, they are lying or mistaken ?

That makes no difference.

In your mind the fact that you had to change the dialogue to fit your version of events makes no difference ?

Trayvon cannot tell us who was calling for help. It's possible that they both were. George of course must say that he was the only one calling for help. Any sign that trayvon was seeking help wouldd break George's story.

Tracy Martin said it wasn't his son crying for help, then lied about it. Javharis Fulton said he didn't know who it was. John good said he thought it was GZ yelling.

Awfully lucky for GZ that no one else really seemed to think it was TM yelling.

And good thing TM didn't actually turn around and say anything to John Good like "he attacked me" or anything, so that didn't blow GZ secret plan.

The jury found that GZ shooting was justified. That means TM was at fault.

All I can say is WOW! Total logic fail on your part.

Please do not simply assert, explain. GZ shooting was justified, Because if it was not, he would have been found guilty. If ti was Justified, it was because he had to defend himself from TM. That means TM was at fault. Even juror B37 said:
"I believe he played a huge role in his death," she said about the teenager.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The court found reasonable doubt in the prosecution's theory. They did not find as a fact that George's version was correct.

No, but by finding him not guilty, they did find GZ acted lawfully in self-defense.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Or maybe the article you are linking is the media campaign. It seems to be falsified by the news link in the original OP of the thread you are posting in right now.

The original GZ thread was started March 8th.

It linked to this article:
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/police-man-neighborhood-watch-shoots-kills-teen-vi/nK8LR/

But it was only in the news because of the PR campaign started the day before (march 7)

How does that falsify the article ? I think it rather proves the article correct.

 

[Dan O.]

As hard as this is to believe, I haven't seen it mentioned yet.
It was raining.
GZ was IN his truck.
The windows would have been rain soaked, plus it was dark outside.
Not exactly ideal conditions for seeing what's outside the truck and a fairly good reason to get out to see what's going on better. And wipers only clean a portion of the windshield, so turning them on would only help a little bit, in one direction.

One of the witnesses had been sitting outside reading a book just prior to the event and had just come in when it started to rain.

George was parked in front of the street number on the club house but he still managed to read the number wrong giving one-eleven instead of one-one-one-one. You can hear his wipers run just after that.

Some posters here claim that it was raining so hard that it washed all the blood off of Trayvon's hands that were tucked under his body and later covered by a tarp. The rain also aparently washed the blood and DNA from the sidewalk where George's head was repeatedly smashed.

 

[Dan O.]

You claimed earlier that the wind noises were from him running.
Now it's from the wind and they stop because he's walking with it.
Inconsistent and baseless.

Ho-hum. I tied multiple factors together in that narative.

Edited by Gaspode: 

Edited for moderated thread.

For which there's very little unaccounted time missing, if any, and the timing is rounded up to the nearest minute.

I believe it was tested and found that t-mobile truncated time back to the start of the minute in their billing records. This is something that anyone with billed minutes on a t-mobile account could test and I suggested doing that soon after the phone records were released. I find it interesting that the investigators had not collected the celltower data for those calls which would have been accurate to the second.

An interesting comparison would be to show the details of Trayvon's phone record that evening beside George's. Does George's phone also record a GPS track? That could have proven George's account if he was being honest. Why wasn't the content of George's phone released?

You're disagreeing with the forensic pathologist.
I'm going to go with his opinion over yours, I'm afraid.

Am I? I thought I was just disagreeing with your interpretation.

 

[WildCat]

This is simple physics. Wind noises in a microphone are related to the effective wind speed. When you walk or run into the wind, the effective wind speed is your speed plus the speed of the wind. When you walk or run with the wind, the effective wind speed is the wind speed minus your speed.

So what is your estimated speed Zimmerman was running?

If we use Occam's Razor here isn't the presumption that the wind noise was caused by wind? Why is running necessary? Especially considering it was raining.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

How many times did the pathologist say that Zimmerman's head was slammed against the concrete sidewalk? Were his injuries life threatening?

What the pathologist actually said is that George took a few hits. He didn't show evidence of the MMA style pounding the GZ supports seem to believe happened. He pointed out that Trayvon's hoodie wasn't against his body when the fatal shot was fired, but that doesn't prove Trayvon intended to beat George to death. George assumed it because in his mind, a black teenager is an ******* who will beat you to death if given a chance.

Edited by Gaspode: 

Edited for moderated thread.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/...orge-zimmerman-trial-20130709,0,6005164.story
Di Maio also said that there was “definite evidence” of six impacts that caused wounds to Zimmerman’s nose, the back of his head and his forehead. Those injuries were also consistent with Zimmerman’s account of events, Di Maio said.

Your summary of what he said is grossly inaccurate. Here is a link to his testimony.

Also, how is it you know what was in GZs mind ?

Again, it's worth pointing out, only people on the Internet found GZ to be a racist.

The FBI did not find George Zimmerman to be a racist.

The lead detective, Chris Serino, did not find George Zimmerman to be a racist.

I don't know of anyone on SPD who found George Zimmerman to be a racist.

None of his friends found George Zimmerman to be a racist.

None of his acquaintances found George Zimmerman to be a racist.

Lacking good judgement ? Probably Yes. Racist ? No.

 

[newyorkguy]

<snip>

Your assumptions are just that, assumptions. And not very good ones.

If GZ was able to see, where was TM when GZ was initially walking down toward and past the TEE ?

How is it GZ walked by without seeing him ?



Your assumption is just that, an assumption. And not even based on the actual dialogue RJ relayed:

BDLR: OK..um…and then what happened?
Dee Dee: And then he told me like the guy was getting close..like..and he told me the guy was
getting real close to him. The next I hear, “What are you following me for?

BTW, do you really think, months later, she remembered word-for-word what TM said ?

Her excuse of not telling crump everything is preposterous. "The wasn't the law, so I didn't have to tell them" is a bunch of crap. Then when she was supposed to tell the truth, she lied about things anyway.

Her credibility is completely suspect. Her statements are just as self-serving as GZ.



So, in your mind, GZ, criminal mastermind, planted his small key and flashlight back at the TEE after he shot TM, so he could then lie about where the fight happened.

And all the witnesses who say the altercation started at the Tee, they are lying or mistaken ?



In your mind the fact that you had to change the dialogue to fit your version of events makes no difference ?



Tracy Martin said it wasn't his son crying for help, then lied about it. Javharis Fulton said he didn't know who it was. John good said he thought it was GZ yelling.

Awfully lucky for GZ that no one else really seemed to think it was TM yelling.

And good thing TM didn't actually turn around and say anything to John Good like "he attacked me" or anything, so that didn't blow GZ secret plan.



Please do not simply assert, explain. GZ shooting was justified, Because if it was not, he would have been found guilty. If ti was Justified, it was because he had to defend himself from TM. That means TM was at fault. Even juror B37 said:
"I believe he played a huge role in his death," she said about the teenager.

First, if Martin said, "Why are you following me?" [and Zimmerman was, although his supporters contend it was inadvertent], I think that implies he was "behind him."

Did Martin's father say at first, "I don't know, " if that was his son's voice or did he say "No?" and later decide to lie?

I don't know either.

Aren't you mostly making assumptions as well?

Again, if Zimmerman provoked the final confrontation he was guilty of murder. If Trayvon Martin provoked it, in the manner in which George Zimmerman describes it, than it was a justifiable shooting.

Only there's very little evidence to go on. I'm saying there's no real way to know. That we will never know conclusively what really happened. There's some reason to believe half of the jurors initially wanted to convict Zimmerman. I believe the jury mostly ruled based on the lack of evidence.

That no matter how anyone denigrates Trayvon Martin, his father, Rachel Jeantel, the media, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, the NAACP etc etal, that does not change the fact:

There is not enough evidence to know conclusively what happened. There just isn't.

 

[Dan O.]

The original GZ thread was started March 8th.

It linked to this article:
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/police-man-neighborhood-watch-shoots-kills-teen-vi/nK8LR/



But it was only in the news because of the PR campaign started the day before (march 7)

That's funny. When I click on the link to that article it says:

Updated: 10:38 a.m. Tuesday, March 13, 2012 | Posted: 4:32 p.m. Wednesday, Feb. 29, 2012​

Maybe there is something wrong with your browser.

 

[Max_mang]

George assumed it because in his mind, a black teenager is an ******* who will beat you to death if given a chance.

Edited by Gaspode: 

Edited for moderated thread.

Anyone who is beating you might beat you to death. One punch can cause irreversible brain damage or death.

 

[Cylinder]

This is simple physics. Wind noises in a microphone are related to the effective wind speed. When you walk or run into the wind, the effective wind speed is your speed plus the speed of the wind. When you walk or run with the wind, the effective wind speed is the wind speed minus your speed.

Maybe if someone took a microphone to the same location the next day and videotaped it, we could see if it would pick up wind noise while walking.

 

[RepresentativePress]

You're putting "Zimmerman is white," in quotes but who are you quoting? You imply it's on Ryan Julison's Facebook page but curious (link) I looked and I don't see that comment.

Julison said on his facebook "check this out" and linked to a Reuters via Yahoo article: " The family of a 17-year-old African-American boy shot to death last month in his gated Florida community by a white Neighborhood Watch captain wants to see the captain arrested, the family's lawyer said on Wednesday." "Since Trayvon, a high school junior who wanted to be a pilot, was black and Zimmerman is white, Crump said race is “the 600 pound elephant in the room.”" http://web.archive.org/web/20120309...eighborhood-watch-seeks-arrest-044537742.html

Julison also says "Now working with CNN on the Trayvon Martin story" and links to a CNN article which says "According to CNN affiliate WFTV, Zimmerman, who is white, described Martin to a dispatcher as a suspicious black man." http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/12/justice/florida-teen-shot/index.html?npt=NP1

I became aware of his deception from this site: http://theconservativetreehouse.com...acial-media-pitch-in-the-trayvon-martin-case/
But as you can see, I checked and confirmed the original links.

 

[KatieG]

Zimmerman's father is white, what else would he be called?

representativepress, if you are getting your info the TCH, you're getting a completely racist POV. That site is internet poison.