Split Thread Does compulsory schooling equate to slavery? (Split from: "Liberal Fallacies" thread)

[A'isha]

It was legally homeschooling.

So? In reality, it wasn't "homeschooling" of the type that you've been advocating.

Though it does raise the question as to why you think the current system does not work, if under that very system this kid was allowed to be "homeschooled" in the fashion that you describe in such laudatory terms.

I argued that the advantage of parent control is flexibility to deal with variations in student ability and interest.

No, you didn't. You quoted Gandhi's assertion that "parents are the natural teachers of their own children", which (unless Monica Vo was secretly Eugene's mother all along) was proven patently untrue in the exact same anecdote that you tried to use as evidence for it.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

So, was the student compelled by his parents to attend instruction by the professor? If so, what was the student's renumeration?

How is compelling the student's attendance for no wages at a non-public institution different from compelling attendance at a public institution (ie. what makes this situation not "slavery" by your definition)?

We have considered this so often I suspect malice rather than honest interest in the repetition of the question. Perhaps Reiver misses all of the many iterations, but I doubt it.
"Compulsion" is a matter of degree. "Compensation" is a matter of degree. Therefore "slavery" is a matter of degree.

The wider the range of educational options (I include on-the-job training in the term "education") available to parents the less the compulsion. The wider the range of educational options available to parents the closer the fit between the curriculum and the pace and method of instruction, on the one hand, and the individual child's interests and abilities, on the other.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

So? In reality, it wasn't "homeschooling" of the type that you've been advocating.

"The type" I advocate is parent control.

 

[Belz...]

It was legally homeschooling. His parents notified the DOE of their intent to homeschool.

If you bring the school home, does it qualify as homeschooling, or did you understand, like me, that homschooling meant schooling by the parents, who cannont possibly have all the academic knowledge of dozens of teachers ?

Still waiting for solid evidence for your claim #1, by the way.

 

[Belz...]

"The type" I advocate is parent control.

So why call it something that it is not ?

As a society, we often make decisions for you. Also, you don't own your children and make decisions for them all the time. That would be, you know, slavery.

 

[RandFan]

"Compulsion" is a matter of degree. "Compensation" is a matter of degree. Therefore "slavery" is a matter of degree.

Given that logic, compulsory schooling = slavery is broad as to be meaningless. The education that Malcolm proposes = slavery. All education is slavery. All jobs = slavery. Life = slavery.

Such a claim that compulsory schooling = slavery, given your revised definition, traffic laws are slavery. Jury duty is slavery. Raising children is slavery. It's a meaningless distinction.

 

[RandFan]

"The type" I advocate is parent control.

Democratic parental control or every every parent should have complete control of the education for their children? If it's the latter I want no part of it.

 

[RandFan]

Malcolm, for what it is worth, I don't dismiss what you say out of hand and I think we could have a more productive discussion if you would just stop trying to equate comulsory education with slavery. If you were to start another thread and take a slightly different tack we could have a much better discussion. My advice would be to start new with a different thesis.

Perhaps "home schooling and parochial/private schooling superior". Something like that anyways. This thread is not productive because the rhetoric has, IMO, poisoned it.

It's an idea.

 

[A'isha]

"The type" I advocate is parent control.

The current system, as your own anecdote shows, already allows for parent control.

 

[Border Reiver]

We have considered this so often I suspect malice rather than honest interest in the repetition of the question. Perhaps Reiver misses all of the many iterations, but I doubt it.
"Compulsion" is a matter of degree. "Compensation" is a matter of degree. Therefore "slavery" is a matter of degree.

The wider the range of educational options (I include on-the-job training in the term "education") available to parents the less the compulsion. The wider the range of educational options available to parents the closer the fit between the curriculum and the pace and method of instruction, on the one hand, and the individual child's interests and abilities, on the other.

If it's all a matter of degree, and it may be a vey slight degree, why bring it up at all?

Why should the parents, if they are to select the method of instruction in all ways for their children, pay any attention to the interests and abilities of their children? If the parent presumes that they know better than their child what is best for them, then it can follow quite logically that the parents will select what they feel is best, not what the child is best suited for or is actually interested in.

With respect to your Einstein quotes, sure. But can you explain the similiarities in pedagoic methods of 19th century Bavaria to 21st century Hawaii? There are about 130 years and a different cultural context that may require a little clarification before I'll accept that Einstein's opinion on his early education applies to what either I received or my children are receiving.

And as for Minsky's interview, he's reporting what Lawler told him that MacCurdy wrote, not reporting on McCurdy's paper. Third hand reporting of a 30 year old biographical study (at the time of the Minsky interview) can be dodgy.

So, if people are interested in, McCurdy's article can be found here.

Looking at McCurdy study of these geniuses, he looked at the biographies of 20 very intellectual giants in the last 500 years. In addition to the similarities quoted (large degree of adult interaction, little interaction with peer group and a strong intellectual life) there is one point of similarity that is overlooked - the fact that all of these geniuses belonged to the social class that had sufficient funds to allow them access to books, tutors and the time to indulge them.

 

[Border Reiver]

Malcolm, for what it is worth, I don't dismiss what you say out of hand and I think we could have a more productive discussion if you would just stop trying to equate comulsory education with slavery. If you were to start another thread and take a slightly different tack we could have a much better discussion. My advice would be to start new with a different thesis.

Perhaps "home schooling and parochial/private schooling superior". Something like that anyways. This thread is not productive because the rhetoric has, IMO, poisoned it.

It's an idea.

This would be a much better use of our time.

 

[Belz...]

The current system, as your own anecdote shows, already allows for parent control.

In some countries, maybe. In Canada, I think, you can't not send your kids to school.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

If it's all a matter of degree, and it may be a vey slight degree, why bring it up at all?¹
Why should the parents, if they are to select the method of instruction in all ways for their children, pay any attention to the interests and abilities of their children? If the parent presumes that they know better than their child what is best for them, then it can follow quite logically that the parents will select what they feel is best, not what the child is best suited for or is actually interested in.²
With respect to your Einstein quotes, sure. But can you explain the similiarities in pedagoic methods of 19th century Bavaria to 21st century Hawaii?³ There are about 130 years and a different cultural context that may require a little clarification before I'll accept that Einstein's opinion on his early education applies to what either I received or my children are receiving.

And as for Minsky's interview, he's reporting what Lawler told him that MacCurdy wrote, not reporting on McCurdy's paper. Third hand reporting of a 30 year old biographical study (at the time of the Minsky interview) can be dodgy.⁴
So, if people are interested in, McCurdy's article can be found here.

Looking at McCurdy study of these geniuses, he looked at the biographies of 20 very intellectual giants in the last 500 years. In addition to the similarities quoted (large degree of adult interaction, little interaction with peer group and a strong intellectual life) there is one point of similarity that is overlooked - the fact that all of these geniuses belonged to the social class that had sufficient funds to allow them access to books, tutors and the time to indulge them.⁵

1. Differences of degree allow calculation of regression coefficients. Compulsion and performance are related. Compulsion reduces performance, for many reasons. Motivation contributes enormously to education system performance. Compulsion kills motivation, as Einstein noted.
2. Where do you suppose this feeling originates? Why suppose that " If the parent presumes politically-appointed authorities presume that they know better than their child other people's children what is best for them, then it can follow quite logically that the parents politically-appointed authorities will select what they feel is best in their immediate financial interest, not what the child is other people's children are best suited for or is areactually interested in" doesn't apply to State schools?
3. Competition spurs innovation. State-monopoly systems evolve slowly.
4. Marvin Minsky: "Robert Lawler just showed me a paper by Harold Macurdy..."

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

This would be a much better use of our time.

The moderator named this thread. The cartel's shills made my comment "compulsory, unpaid labor is slavery" the topic. We already had a discussion on the impact of compulsion, State-monopoly systems, and policies which restrict parents' educational options in progress. The shills chose to turn "slavery" into an all-or-nothing concept and ignore the relation of compulsion to motivation.

 

[A'isha]

The shills chose to turn "slavery" into an all-or-nothing concept and ignore the relation of compulsion to motivation.

Actually, it's you that are ignoring the relation of compulsion to motivation, since you keep dodging and special pleading around the parents' own compulsion of their children.

 

[RandFan]

Malcolm, for what it is worth, I don't dismiss what you say out of hand and I think we could have a more productive discussion if you would just stop trying to equate comulsory education with slavery. If you were to start another thread and take a slightly different tack we could have a much better discussion. My advice would be to start new with a different thesis.

Perhaps "home schooling and parochial/private schooling superior". Something like that anyways. This thread is not productive because the rhetoric has, IMO, poisoned it.

It's an idea.

That was a sincere and civil post.

The cartel's shills made my comment "compulsory, unpaid labor is slavery" the topic.

 

[Border Reiver]

In some countries, maybe. In Canada, I think, you can't not send your kids to school.

Homeschooling is an option throughout Canada. As are private schools.

The only issue that a homeschooled child may have is meeting post secondary institution requirements, although there are tests that can be taken for Ontario institutions at least.

 

[Border Reiver]

And as an aside, my wife and I have looked into homeschooling for our middle son. His Aspergers has made him a bit of a target for bullying and if middle and high school prove problematic then we have a Plan B.

 

[RandFan]

The cartel's shills made my comment "compulsory, unpaid labor is slavery" the topic.

Hang on, the new thread was named after there was a sub thread that many thought OT. The name was based on this new sub thread... the subject was whether or not compulsory education was slavery. That was the topic of the sub thread based on what YOU said.

Compulsory, unpaid labor is slavery.

Recognize that? Any wonder that the thread was named that?

BTW: In the conspiracy forums, those who don't buy into the conspiracy are typically assumed by the paranoid to be "shills". It's ad hominem.

Try civility.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Actually, it's you that are ignoring the relation of compulsion to motivation, since you keep dodging and special pleading around the parents' own compulsion of their children.

There's no practical way to abolish parents without eliminating humanity from the planet. Education policy makers offer supplements to or substitutions for parent control.