Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Skeletor]

Charles Barkley has decided to become unpopular:
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2013/07/19/charles-barkley-said-agrees-with-george-zimmerman-verdict/

“Well I agree with the verdict,” Barkley said. “I feel sorry that young kid got killed, but they didn’t have enough evidence to charge him. Something clearly went wrong that night — clearly something went wrong — and I feel bad for anybody who loses a kid, but if you looked at the case and you don’t make it — there was some racial profiling, no question about it — but something happened that changed the dynamic of that night.”

Makes a very good point about the media, in this case in particular:
“The main thing I feel bad for is it gives every white person and black person who’s racist a platform to vent their ignorance,” he said. “That’s the thing that bothered me the most. I watched this trial closely and I watched these people on television talking about it. A lot of these people have a hidden agenda. They want to have their racist views, whether they are white or black … Their biases definitely come out. It was a bad situation. We all lost.”

Looks like he was one of the few people in the spotlight that actually followed the case and how it was reported.

Sir Charles was rather even-handed when it came to discussing the trial's outcome. He acknowledged the verdict was the only logical outcome given the evidence presented, but admitted that GZ should never have left his truck to begin with. Barkley is correct that both sides are using this tragedy as a platform to spew racism.

I haven't seen any reaction from TM's supporters regarding Barkley's comments, has anyone else?

Also, am I the only one who thought we wouldn't still be discussing the results of the trial a week later?

 

[phillyboy]

?[/QUOTE]

Trayvon Martin may have been 16 recently but at the time of his death he was most decidedly 17, barring his parents lying to him.

A "hopefully civilized society" would probably have to include not punching people for following them.[/QUOTE]

TM would have been 17 at death whether his parents lied to him or not.

Regarding a "hopefully civilized society", at least you're thinking now outside the dimension of strict legality, but remember that Treyvon Martin AND George Zimmerman could have shown more responsibility that night.

 

[triforcharity]

{snipped broken coding and other stuff} Treyvon Martin AND George Zimmerman could have shown more responsibility that night.

My snipping.

Agreed. However, I'm hoping that you're not saying that because of those bad decision, that GZ didn't have the right to defend against a very real and credible threat to his life.

You're not saying that are you?

Also, I've posted a response to your post in this thread. I'd love to continue our discussion from there.

 

[bynmdsue]

TM would have been 17 at death whether his parents lied to him or not.

Regarding a "hopefully civilized society", at least you're thinking now outside the dimension of strict legality, but remember that Treyvon Martin AND George Zimmerman could have shown more responsibility that night.

Then why call him 16?

Sure, Zimmerman forgot the cardinal safari park rule. Never get out of your vehicle.

 

[bynmdsue]

Sir Charles was rather even-handed when it came to discussing the trial's outcome. He acknowledged the verdict was the only logical outcome given the evidence presented, but admitted that GZ should never have left his truck to begin with. Barkley is correct that both sides are using this tragedy as a platform to spew racism.

I haven't seen any reaction from TM's supporters regarding Barkley's comments, has anyone else?

Also, am I the only one who thought we wouldn't still be discussing the results of the trial a week later?

http://twitchy.com/2013/07/19/sambo-uncle-tom-ngger-self-appointed-race-cops-unleash-hate-on-cosby-and-barkley-for-zimmerman-remarks/

These may not be actual TM supporters though, they may just be people who really, really hate Sir Charles and The Cos.

 

[Ziggurat]

I don't recall seeing this mentioned in this thread yet, but marijuana wasn't the only drug Martin was abusing. In particular, it appears that Martin was abusing a drug cocktail called "lean", one variant of which is skittles, Arizona Watermelon fruit juice cocktail, and Robitussin DM. And Martin had two of those three ingredients on him at the time of his death (no, it wasn't iced tea, despite the commonly repeated claim that it was). The active ingredient in lean is DXM, and DXM abuse can potentially lead to serious problems, including antisocial behavior, paranoia, violence, and even psychotic breaks. Oh, and liver damage. Which Martin had.

 

[Dissolution]

Rachael's testimony on the verbal exchange just before the phone got cut off:

TM: Why are you following me?
GZ: What are you doing here?
TM: Get off, get off.

The bit where she changed her testimony from her initial claims that she didn't know who said it?

Awful, awful witness, by the way.

 

[Jono]

I don't recall seeing this mentioned in this thread yet, but marijuana wasn't the only drug Martin was abusing. In particular, it appears that Martin was abusing a drug cocktail called "lean", one variant of which is skittles, Arizona Watermelon fruit juice cocktail, and Robitussin DM. And Martin had two of those three ingredients on him at the time of his death (no, it wasn't iced tea, despite the commonly repeated claim that it was). The active ingredient in lean is DXM, and DXM abuse can potentially lead to serious problems, including antisocial behavior, paranoia, violence, and even psychotic breaks. Oh, and liver damage. Which Martin had.

He had liver damage, at that age? If not from a disease/chronic ailment then it sounds like he had been using substances for some time. Does DXM leave any trace specific of its own compound or just these residual, but serious, side effects?

 

[Virus]

A round-up of how the media suckered people into their narrative:

 

[triforcharity]

How many times was {snipped poisoning of the well} George's noggin slammed into the concrete?

According to the expert who testified, there is evidence of at least 4 distinct injuries from striking an immovable object, consistent with concrete.

Can we explain why George ended up with such minor injuries from these devastating blows?

Your opinion is based on what? Blunt force trauma can and will lead to great bodily harm, and if continued, will lead to the death of the person.

Tell you what, try an experiment. Go get a buddy slam your own head down on to the concrete. Do it 3-4 times. Tell me what happens. Tell me if this was an unknown person, at night, who'm you've just gotten into a fight with, who's straddling you, if you'd be in fear for your life, or of great bodily harm.

THAT is the standard required under most self defense laws, and the standard in Florida. How bad the injuries were, or were not, in your opinion, is pretty much irrelevant. What matters is what a reasonable person would feel in that situation.

 

[Upchurch]

I don't recall seeing this mentioned in this thread yet, but marijuana wasn't the only drug Martin was abusing.

Was Martin impaired by any of these drugs on the night he was killed? According to this, his levels were below the level of "performance impairment".

So, what's your point? Martin was still doing nothing illegal that deserved Zimmerman's suspicions.

Should we also reiterate that Zimmerman was doing (prescription) drugs that may have effected his judgement, via the same source?

 

[RepresentativePress]

Been investigating a lot, It is only tonight that I decided to Google "suspicious behavior" and Trayvon Martin, and I really think I found a compelling argument against the "we know Zimmerman racially profiled Martin" claim, a school police investigator had observed months before this and described Martin as "being suspicious"

"a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area “hiding and being suspicious.”

"The officer found women’s jewelry & a screwdriver that he described as a “burglary tool,” according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report. Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds. Asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or girlfriend. “Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” Trayvon declined to name the friend."

Why are people so sure the only reason Zimmerman called to report Martin was because "he saw a black kid." People should know that Al Sharpton, a man central to promoting this case, was pushing the Tawana Brawley HOAX yeas ago. Sharpton had the above facts, he choose to spin this story anyway.

n October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area “hiding and being suspicious.” Then he said he saw Trayvon mark up a door with “W.T.F” — an acronym for “what the ****.” The officer said he found Trayvon the next day and went through his book bag in search of the graffiti marker.

Instead the officer reported he found women’s jewelry and a screwdriver that he described as a “burglary tool,” according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report obtained by The Miami Herald.

Did people see the video of Martin at the 7-11? I'm not saying his actions at the 7-11 were outrageous but his actions were not the norm, normally you leave when you buy your items. If Martin was white, would this have been made into this circus?

 

[Kestrel]

I don't recall seeing this mentioned in this thread yet, but marijuana wasn't the only drug Martin was abusing. In particular, it appears that Martin was abusing a drug cocktail called "lean", one variant of which is skittles, Arizona Watermelon fruit juice cocktail, and Robitussin DM. And Martin had two of those three ingredients on him at the time of his death (no, it wasn't iced tea, despite the commonly repeated claim that it was). The active ingredient in lean is DXM, and DXM abuse can potentially lead to serious problems, including antisocial behavior, paranoia, violence, and even psychotic breaks. Oh, and liver damage. Which Martin had.

Funny how the part of this reputed drug cocktail that Trayvon was missing was the drug.

And when we look at his autopsy we find:
Liver: No diagnostic abnormality.

 

[bynmdsue]

The bit where she changed her testimony from her initial claims that she didn't know who said it?

Awful, awful witness, by the way.

Initially she said that the other voice said "What are you talking about?" I guess that wasn't confrontational enough so they massaged it.

 

[lane99]

At least one wasn't

...They all got sent up the river.

Perhaps their stories were inconsistent with he evidence.

Yes, a story inconsistent with the evidence normally counts against a defendant, doesn't it. Curious how, in Zimmergun's case, his supporters co-opt it as a sign of truthfulness. Inconsistent, indeed.
.
.

 

[Kestrel]

You realise that having you head banged into concrete causes a compression injury and not a laceration one, right?

Yes, it can cause a concussion or a depressed skull fracture. George would be a lot more believable if he had injuries consistent with his description of what happened during the fight.

 

[Dan O.]

I don't recall seeing this mentioned in this thread

Edited by LashL: 

Edited for moderated thread.

How about if you do what a skeptic would do and dig up the actual sources for those claimed facts instead of just echoing what other people are saying. Post the source of Martin's toxicology screen test. Post a source for the "recipe" that predates the shooting.


You are trying to present a conclusion of Martin's behavior that is contradicted by the video we have from that very night which has been posted and discussed in this thread. The video from the 7-11 store where martin doesn't even raise his voice when challenged for an ID. Implied in that video sequence, Martin also displays sufficient social skills to negotiate with three strangers that were not of his race for the purchase of a tobacco product.

Contrasted to this mellow kid we have the recorded call of George Zimmerman referring to Martin with "these ******* they always get away" and other cussing saying "*********** *****" and "**** ****". George Zimmerman who was sentenced to take a pre-trial diversion anger management course. George Zimmerman who did get out of his truck to chase after the running suspect.

What did the toxicology screen test show George had in his system the night of the shooting?

 

[bynmdsue]

Funny how the part of this reputed drug cocktail that Trayvon was missing was the drug.

And when we look at his autopsy we find:
Liver: No diagnostic abnormality.

We also find "Focal patchy yellow discoloration, due to mild fatty metamorphosis, is present. On sectioning, the hepatic parenchyma is yellow-brown, homogenous and congested." All perfectly normal in a 17 year old assuredly. An alcoholic obese 17 year old.

Maybe he found some he found some Robitussin in Brandy Green's medicine cabinet. Maybe he brought some DXM with him from Miami like he did his weed.

 

[newyorkguy]

A round-up of how the media suckered people into their narrative:

This is a typical attack on the media by a hard-core right-winger.

How objective is Bill Whittle? The photos he claims were used to manipulate the American public were file photos. He refers to a search of Trayvon Martin's school locker as finding a "burglary tool" -- it was a screwdriver -- and "several pieces of stolen property."

"several pieces of stolen property." ftfy Bill.

Then Whittle gos on to say that, "incredibly," school officials decided to list the stolen property as "found property" since they didn't want to do anything that would "reflect badly on black crime rates in the school system." And how does Bill Whittle know that? He doesn't say.

Then Whittle says that Trayvon Martin bought Skittles and Arizona Watermelon Fruit Juice Cocktail. "Not iced tea," Whittle says, accusing the prosecutors as having "continually kept up this deception," that it was ice tea. When it wasn't. Whittle says these are the ingredients needed to make a codeine-based concoction called Lean. Except you need Robitussin DM which Martin didn't have.

He also says the autopsy showed liver damage consistent with Lean abuse. And probably many other things as well.

There's more but this is adequate I think to suggest Whittle is a mirror image of what he's supposedly against. He's a media guy with an agenda and he's interpreting things to support his views and connect with his audience.

The bottom line remains, and this is the part I don't think Whittle has ever addressed:

George Zimmerman said he was on his way to the store when he passed Trayvon Martin. If Zimmerman had only kept on going none of this would've happened. Zimmerman would've gone to the store and Martin would've returned to his father's home.

Does that mean Zimmerman is guilty of murder? No it doesn't. Did he willfully murder Trayvon Martin? We don't know that because we don't know what happened in the final few moments. We know there was a fight. We don't know what triggered it. We only have George Zimmerman's account -- a man who had just killed an unarmed 17-year-old youth -- to go by.

The State of Florida charged Zimmerman with murder and a jury found the evidence was not adequate to convict. They didn't find Zimmerman Innocent. They found him Not Guilty.

 

[newyorkguy]

Another point I wanted to make was, comparisons to this case keeps getting dragged into a thread about a shooting in western New York. There the shooter was a black man and the victim a white 17-year-old.

In both cases the shooter was arrested, charged with murder and then acquitted at trial. Yet people complain there was no outrage at the western New York incident. They allege this is because, as one man wrote, "White guy kills black guy? A brutal murder! Always. Black guy kills white guy? Justifiable defense. Always." (Yes I know Zimmerman was racially mixed, I guess the OP didn't or...didn't want to spoil his point. )

Let me blend the two cases-

If Zimmerman had noticed Martin had broken into a neighbor's car;
If it was three o'clock in the morning;
If Zimmerman phoned the police and then tried to hold Martin at gunpoint until the cops arrived;
If Martin had been legally drunk, was accompanied by two other teens, and than charged Zimmerman, yelling "I'm going to get you";
If Zimmerman had then fired two shots at Martin, killing him-

In that circumstance, does anyone think we would have ever heard of Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman?

Hint - The correct answer is 'no.'

For those people who think the answer is 'yes' I have a question.

Do you know who Michael Dunn and Jordan Davis are?