Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[MiloMinderbinder]

Except it wasn't late at night in a parking garage and Zimmerman isn't female.

You are completely ignoring the reason why I made the comparison. The point is that men are routinely profiled as threats in situations where almost none of them are actually up to no good, but we all find that acceptable instead of saying it's sexist and getting mad at women.

What context? There ARE black people who live in that development, are there not?

It was 7:00 PM and Zimmerman drove past a teenaged black kid walking while wearing a hoodie and carrying a can of iced tea. But as you suggest, for some people just Martin's presence alone was enough to ignite their suspicion. What black people call, "WWB."

Thanks.

According to Zimmerman, Martin wasn't just walking down the street, but behaving suspiciously. And, Zimmerman obviously knew that he had many black neighbors, so it makes even less sense that he would find every black person he saw in his neighborhood as suspicious.

If you want to ASSUME That Martin was simply walking down the street while not doing anything wrong, then I agree that Zimmerman racially profiled. But, that's an assumption and stating it as a fact doesn't advance the conversation any more than assuming that Zimmerman was telling the truth and asserting that as a fact.

 

[Newtons Bit]

That's the crazy part. Zimmerman made bad decisions and claims of self defense is OK. But somehow self defense applying to Martin suddenly is impossible because he made a bad decision? Why the double standard?

The law does not allow someone to use force against others without fear of great bodily injury or death or (in the case of SYG) to stop a forcible felony.

Great bodily injury or death is a very high bar. Believing that someone is following you does not rise to that level. Following someone is also not a felony. Hence you can't use SYG to stop that activity.

Assuming my hypothesis is accurate, assuming that Zimmerman decided to try to physically detain Martin, assuming that Martin fought back against an aggressor with undeclared intentions, would his claim to self defense suddenly become invalid because he didn't try to run away the first chance he got? If so, why is Zimmerman's claim of self defense not invalidated for not staying in his car, or walking away when confronted by Martin?

Hypotheses are testable. In the area of law, it is tested by a jury. The jury did so. They found this hypothesis lacking.

But let's assume that this is a hypothetical instead and what you said did happen. Suppose GZ caught TM (instead of TM returning to GZ) and that GZ actually threw the first punch or tried to grab TM and TM defended himself. He would probably be okay, legally, if GZ's injuries did not exceed what he sustained that night. If the police pulled TM off GZ while TM was smashing GZ's head into the concrete sidewalk there might be elevated charges, even attempted murder.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say I know one way or another, regarding who initiated what. There's only two witnesses there, and one is dead, and the other has every reason in the world to lie about it if it would incriminate him. I guess I'm just trying to point out that there's people who still treat Zimmerman as if he were some poor innocent soul who doesn't deserve the consequences of his bad decisions, that treat Zimmerman's word regarding the events as verified fact, and that I think they are wrong.

No, there were more witnesses. Rachel Jeantel was on the phone when it started. She thinks that TM threw the first punch. A witness in one of the houses saw something that would correlate with TM running from the south to the north before the fight starting (towards GZ).

That doesn't mean TM threw the first punch, but it does suggest that TM probably initiated the physical altercation.

Remember, Zimmerman didn't exactly bother to explain his intent to Martin at all, and answered obliquely when asked by Martin why he was following him. Why wouldn't Martin expect the worst? As far as he saw things, some crazy guy actually got out of his car to follow him on foot. For your average teenager, under what scenarios you can imagine this NOT end in a bad way?

That's where GZ screwed up. He should have politely identified himself. He did not. But that lack of identification still doesn't elevate GZ's actions to manslaughter, let alone 2nd degree murder. It also does not justify TM's behavior of knocking GZ down, climbing on top of him and slamming his head into concrete.

 

[Dissolution]

Remember, Zimmerman didn't exactly bother to explain his intent to Martin at all, and answered obliquely when asked by Martin why he was following him.

And you know this because...?

 

[bynmdsue]

Trayvon Martin.

And no we don't. "Not being in violation of the law" is the best the state can ask of us....[/QUOTE]

True statement, but only as far as it goes. What about what we can ask of each other in a hopefully civilized society?[/QUOTE]

Trayvon Martin may have been 16 recently but at the time of his death he was most decidedly 17, barring his parents lying to him.

A "hopefully civilized society" would probably have to include not punching people for following them.

 

[Dissolution]

Charles Barkley has decided to become unpopular:
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2013/07/19/charles-barkley-said-agrees-with-george-zimmerman-verdict/

“Well I agree with the verdict,” Barkley said. “I feel sorry that young kid got killed, but they didn’t have enough evidence to charge him. Something clearly went wrong that night — clearly something went wrong — and I feel bad for anybody who loses a kid, but if you looked at the case and you don’t make it — there was some racial profiling, no question about it — but something happened that changed the dynamic of that night.”

Makes a very good point about the media, in this case in particular:
“The main thing I feel bad for is it gives every white person and black person who’s racist a platform to vent their ignorance,” he said. “That’s the thing that bothered me the most. I watched this trial closely and I watched these people on television talking about it. A lot of these people have a hidden agenda. They want to have their racist views, whether they are white or black … Their biases definitely come out. It was a bad situation. We all lost.”

Looks like he was one of the few people in the spotlight that actually followed the case and how it was reported.

 

[Kestrel]

That's where GZ screwed up. He should have politely identified himself. He did not. But that lack of identification still doesn't elevate GZ's actions to manslaughter, let alone 2nd degree murder. It also does not justify TM's behavior of knocking GZ down, climbing on top of him and slamming his head into concrete.

How many times was poor George's noggin slammed into the concrete? Can we explain why George ended up with such minor injuries from these devastating blows?

 

[Toontown]

The one valid point you make is GZ willingness to repeatedly talk to the police multiple times without an attorney, give them his DNA, his cell phone, take the voice stress test can be best explained by an absence of intent to decieve.

I'll take it. One is enough.

 

[Toontown]

Do you also believe the countless guilty parties who have "cooperated" with investigators (for example, rapists and murderers who were caught after voluntarily providing DNA samples) were effectively confessing to their crimes, rather than, with their backs against the wall, making a strategic choice as to what would be the best means to deceive investigators and misdirect suspicion away from themselves?

Nobody believed them. They all got sent up the river.

Perhaps their stories were inconsistent with he evidence.

 

[Mister Earl]

You misunderstand me, Newtons Bit.

I'm not making legal assertions, here. Nor am I disputing the legal outcome; I'm satisfied that the case the prosecution brought was lacking, and that Zimmerman was not guilty per the law.

That post was mostly framed as a responseto some people who treat Zimmerman as though he had done nothing wrong at all, and that what had happened was completely the fault of Martin. A premise I disagree with very much.

 

[triforcharity]

And yet you already admitted to the opposite in another thread.

I did? Hummm.....Meaning I said "George escalated the situation"? I don't recal saying that recently at all. When this story first hit the news, yes, I did think GZ was guilty. However, after more and more evidence came out, I did adjust my opinion. But, do you have a citation? I'd like to see what you're talking about.

 

[Noztradamus]

It's a continuation of a conversation that happened in a different thread.

There are primarily two different sides on the issue: the "Martin is the victim" side and the "Zimmerman is the victim" side. WildCat is in the latter group and, along with others, have been both mocking those who claim that Zimmerman caused the encounter as not knowing the facts of the trial and simultaneously asserting that Martin assaulted Zimmerman for merely following Martin. (All paraphrases and not meant to be exact quotations.)

My point is, and WildCat's examples of evidence supports, is that we don't know who started the physical encounter. It may have been Martin approaching Zimmerman and punching him in the nose. It may have been Zimmerman grabbing Martin in an ill-advised attempt to play cops and robbers. (As a reminder, grabbing someone can also count as assult.)

All we can conclude from the trial is that, legally, there was a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman started it. That, however, does not preclude that he did start it, nor does automatically conclude that Martin did. We don't know. There were only two witnesses to the event. One is dead and the remaining one has every reason to paint himself in a favorable light.

I'm not saying Zimmerman is lying. I'm saying it is anecdotal evidence and we should all know of what value anecdotal evidence is.

So, my ultimate point is that WildCat, et al., are perfectly valid to assert that those who claim to they know it is Zimmerman's fault are basing it on pure speculation. However, it is also perfectly valid to assert that those who claim that they know Martin assaulted Zimmerman first also basing it on pure speculation.

What the evidence actually supports seems to have been lost in all the side-taking.

^^This^^

 

[applecorped]

Obama and Zimmerman have something in common

http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/20/george-zimmerman-and-barack-obama-share-same-disapproval-rating/


"Former neighborhood watchman George Zimmerman is viewed favorably by 32 percent of the American public, according to a new Rasmussen poll.
32 percent of American adults view Zimmerman favorably, while 48 percent view him unfavorably, according to the poll.

By comparison, President Obama clocked in at 44 percent favorability in a new Quinnipiac University poll, with 48 percent disapproving of his performance — the same disapproval rate as for Zimmerman.

​

​

 

[Travis]

Which proves what? That we are too soft on neighborhood watch thugs and too harsh on presidents?

 

[applecorped]

Which proves what? That we are too soft on neighborhood watch thugs and too harsh on presidents?

Or the opposite.

 

[Dan O.]

1. I have no evidence that he ran. Did he say he ran ? Did anyone say GZ ran ?/

Now, who said anything about George running? But while we are on the subject, yes, the wind noise sounds like George is running but as others have pointed out, that could just be the wind.

• 2:18.68 Wind noises start on the NEN tape
• 2:27.75 When told they don't need him to be following the suspect, George replies "OK"
• 2:37.75 George gets to where he can make a final determination and remarks "He Ran"
• 2:40.07 End of final burst of wind noise

I believe we are hearing this wind as George is running (walking fast) into the wind which was from NE at 10-15 kph. We are hearing this wind for about 20 seconds. a walking speed of 2 m/s would get him to the center of the tee. a fast walk/slow running speed of 3.5 m/s would get him to RVC. Sprinters typically do better than 6 m/s and George isn't moving that fast. (roll-polly George that we saw at the trial probably has a top speed under 1 m/s).

I believe the final burst of wind noise is where George turns into the wind to look north before turning to head South on RVC towards the back entrance, walking with the wind now and so not picking up any more noise.

 

[Noztradamus]

Of course I'd pick the one that actually follows the law. A wise man once said that it would be better for us to let 100 guilty men free, than for one innocent person to be imprisoned. Or something like that.

Better for whom?

A hundred? Why not a thousand? Why not all of them? Sounds like something a bleeding heart liberal would say, not a lawyer.

Actual lawyers

William Blackstone Commentaries on the Laws of England, (1765-69) 10 to 1

Sir John Fortescue De Laudibus Legum Angliae (c. 1470) 20 to 1

As a scientist Benjii should have gone with the latter 2σ confidence level.


.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Trayvon Martin.

Strange, Trayvon was 17.

Still you could try the media's way of doing things and go for 14, that'll garner you even more sympathy, it did for the media.

 

[PhantomWolf]

How many times was poor George's noggin slammed into the concrete? Can we explain why George ended up with such minor injuries from these devastating blows?

You realise that having you head banged into concrete causes a compression injury and not a laceration one, right?

 

[Kestrel]

And you know this because...?

Rachael's testimony on the verbal exchange just before the phone got cut off:

TM: Why are you following me?
GZ: What are you doing here?
TM: Get off, get off.

The other surviving witness to this exchange is George Zimmerman. One version of his story goes like this:

TM: You got a *********** problem homie?
GZ: No.
TM: You got a problem now.

 

[Scopedog]

How many times was poor George's noggin slammed into the concrete? Can we explain why George ended up with such minor injuries from these devastating blows?

You've mentioned Zimmerman's injuries and their non-severity several times. Not everybody is a current or former Navy SEAL, Green Beret, Delta Force commando, Vatican assassin, hardened 9th degree black belt in every martial art who can shrug off any deadly strike just like the Black Knight from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. We know Martin was just a 17-year-old zygote still in his mother's womb when this all happened and just because Zimmerman is the Grand Wizard of the Aryan Neo Republican Nazi Party doesn't necessarily mean he's particularly tough or resilient in a scuffle. Isn't it possible that Zimmerman is a soft weak man who in his own soft weak mind thought every one of Martin's child-like blows was the end of his world? There really are people like that in the world. Most people immediately think they're going to drown when they're water-boarded and it's even less potentially lethal than having your head bounced on concrete.