Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[newyorkguy]

The George Zimmerman we saw in court was an out of shape fat guy. Roughly 100 pounds heavier than the George Zimmerman that Trayvon Martin encountered on the day he was shot.

At the time of the shooting, George was a somewhat athletic looking guy with a shaved head who had been working out regularly.

...

One-hundred pounds!

I think this whole episode may weigh heavily on Zimmerman. I wouldn't want this on my conscience. I'm sure he must feel some guilt. He wouldn't be human if he didn't. He wouldn't be human if he didn't second-guess himself even a tad.

Anybody want to bet we haven't heard the last of George? I think there'll be something....don't know what....

 

[triforcharity]

I'm surprised you're not aware that Zimmerman's defense team considered applying for SYG immunity.

I'm well aware of this case. Most likely more than most here on the JREF. I've followed this case from the beginning as it could have a huge impact on my life. I've read pages and pages of decisions from the judge, filings from both the prosecution and defense, different case law, legal standards etc. etc. etc. I'm fully aware of it.

Doesn't that invalidate your argument that SYG had no application to this case? The fact that Zimmerman's own defense team considered it?

Link

No. Do you understand Florida's SYG statute? It WASN'T APPLICABLE. He had no CHANCE to stand his ground. He was already to the point of having his life put in grave danger. At THAT point, he is protected under plain old self defense.

The jurors thought SYG applied too.

Link

No, one juror. And it's irrelevant as the SYG statute doesn't apply, and wasn't applied in this case. If it was, there would have been a hearing asking for immunity. The defense chose not to, most likely because they realized it wasn't a SYG case.

 

[triforcharity]

He was not tested, because no one (except people on the Internet) believed him to be under the influence of anything.

For some reason I thought he had. I'll say you're most likely right, as you've followed this case pretty closely since the beginning. But I would have bet dollars to donuts that he did. I'll look and see what I can find. Not tonight though, I'll report back to you tomorrow if I find it.

 

[triforcharity]

Bernie De La Rionda and Angela Corey (HLN Interview)
at 2:19:


HLN: what was your story, everyone was wondering, what was the prosecutions theory of what actually happened ?

BDLR: He chased down TM....Now at what point he pulled out the gun, we can speculate as to what happened. My theory is he pulled it out early.


-VS-
Entire Prosecution Team (ABC Interview)

at 1:15

John Guy: I think there was a struggle, at some point Trayvon become aware of the gun, and was backing up and george zimmerman shot him


If the prosecutors can't even agree on what they think happened, how did they ever expect the jury to get beyond reasonable doubt ?

Thanks for posting those. Maybe (pure speculation here) the prosecutors thought that the jury they agreed on, were a bunch of stupid fools who wouldn't think that far? Or, maybe they believe in magic.....

 

[Dan O.]

He didn't "say" it, but it is self evident that he did it.

If Serino claims both
a)"it’s on right now"
b) "you gotta smack it around a couple times"
then it is clear that:
c) serino smacked the flashlight to make it go on

Do you think Serino was saying that the flashlight was sitting somewhere shining away at the very moment that Zimmerman was giving his interview? No. Serino was walking through the timeline for earlier that night. He has come to a specific Time just before the altercation when George is walking out there in the darkness and reminds George that he had a flashlight to help George fill in the context of what happened. George says that the flashlight was dead and Serino reminds him "You had to hit it a couple of times, it's on now". This doesn't help poor George so Serino drops the subject and moves on to the altercation.

 

[triforcharity]

But from what I understand he took the law into his own hands (vigilantism) by ignoring police instructions and pursuing Martin. I didn't follow this too closely, but am I wrong ? If not, then it's quite ironic that his brother claims he will be afraid of similar behaviours by others.

Following someone is not against the law. I know you're not saying that, I just want to make sure you're on the same page.

The police never game him a clear instruction not to follow. That is a police dispatcher, who is a civilian and has no legal authority to command a person to not do something.

"We don't need you to do that" is what the dispatcher said. Most likely, (pure speculation on my point) for liability reasons. If the dispatcher asked him to follow, and he ended up killed, the civil suit would be filed before the ink on the death certificate dried.

 

[triforcharity]

Yes, I find that statement unlikely. I have a similar reaction to George's claim that Trayvon said "you got me" after part of his heart has been blown away.

Dr. Di Miao (Sp? Forensic pathologist expert on gun shot wounds, who literally wrote the book on GSW analysis) said that the brain has a "reserve" of about 10-15 seconds worth of oxygen after the heart stops. He explained that even if the heart stopped sending oxygenated blood to the brain, it still is alive and can function quite well for a little while after the heart stops sending blood to it. He told (IIRC) Sunny (who was filling in for Nancy Grace) on HLN that there was a case that he worked where a guy suffered a similar gunshot, and was able to run about 70 feet before finally collapsing.

I think based on his testimony and his expert analysis and vastly superior knowledge, we can reasonable conclude that he is right, and you, while unfortunate, are wrong. I'd default to the actual expert on this.

 

[triforcharity]

Could you please find a cite for that?

I'll look tomorrow. TheL8Elvis clarified, though I will try to find it tomorrow. I remember that being an issue for me in the beginning, so I'll try to find it tomorrow. Remind me if I forget. Feel free to PM me.

 

[Dan O.]

You do agree that a common failure mode for flashlights are the connections in the switch and that the universal troubleshooting procedure is to slap the flashlight against an open palm, right?

Common maybe for those cheap grocery store flashlights. It's not the switch contacts which rub every time you turn it on and off but rather the contact between the dissimilar metals of the batteries and the terminals in the flashlight. Get a decent lamp with water tight seals and put a little silicon grease on the battery terminals and it won't give you any trouble. If you use it all the time, use rechargible batteries. Otherwise spent a little extra for lithium batteries so they'll still work when you need it.

 

[Dan O.]

As to your point (4), I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, imagine what the final body count might be now that he actually has a VALID reason to fear for his life.

I don't doubt that there are idiots out there that would try to take Zimmerman down. However, anyone with any sense would recognize that if they cut him down now, Trayvon's family will get nothing in compensation through the civil courts. The report from the jurors makes a civil judgement very promising. I hope the Black community leaders are spreading the message to save George's ass for a royal skinning in the civil court.

 

[Dan O.]

Starting at about 12:00 and shortly thereafter he gets to the point where he claims TM said "you're going to die tonight ************". I've never ruled out the possibility that GZ is lying about some of this and that is one part that sticks out to me that sounds really suspicious. Do you not find the statement unlikely? Do you really think TM intended to kill GZ (rather than just beat him up)?

I am of the oppinion that much of George's version of the final moments is role reversed. Try examining George's statements and for each action or utterance, ask yourself if that would make more sense if it were applied to the other person.

 

[OneShotKi11]

Ok, so I keep hearing it be said that Trayvon was looking through peoples windows and in there doorways, but I cant seem to find anywhere it was actually said.

Has anyone else heard this? If you have, can someone point me in the direction of where it was said? I

 

[Virus]

Traytards beat up grandmother taking her daughter to hospital.

"One of them was hitting the windshield and I was just screaming, 'We've got to get to the hospital,' and they were screaming and chanting," she said. "All I could think of was, I got to get my granddaughter to the hospital."

"My mom rolled down the window," said Georgia's daughter. "She said, 'We're trying to get my granddaughter to the hospital,' and a guy just started hitting her."

A Local 2 camera covering the protest recorded the entire incident. On the video you could see Georgia sitting in the front seat of an SUV, she had her window down and you can see a man reach in and grab her. Georgia said she was hit.

"When we got on the road I told her, 'Let's call 911," and I could feel I had been hit," she said.

The family is upset by the whole incident and thinks the demonstrators took things too far. Georgia filed a police report and hopes that things will quiet down.

"It wasn't peaceful," she said. "It was terrifying."

Bunch of idiots.

 

[KatieG]

GZ never had blood taken that night. I was told early on, by crimereseach, that the SPD had no legal grounds to do testing of any sort on GZ. He was not arrested that night so nothing was done.

 

[Dissolution]

Ok, so I keep hearing it be said that Trayvon was looking through peoples windows and in there doorways, but I cant seem to find anywhere it was actually said.

Has anyone else heard this? If you have, can someone point me in the direction of where it was said? I

People are getting this from Zimmerman's NEN call.
It's not exactly what he said, though.

Dispatcher: Okay, he's just walking around the area...
Zimmerman: ...looking at all the houses.

 

[Kestrel]

Ok, so I keep hearing it be said that Trayvon was looking through peoples windows and in there doorways, but I cant seem to find anywhere it was actually said.

Has anyone else heard this? If you have, can someone point me in the direction of where it was said? I

George describes what Trayvon was doing to the police dispatcher:

G: This guy looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs or sumthin it's raining and he's just walking around looking about.
D: O-K, and this guy, is he white, black or hispanic?
G: He looks black
D: Did you see what he was wearing?
G: Yea, mm, a dark hoodie like a grey hoody and either jeans or sweet pants and white tennis shoes
G: He's here now, he's just staring
D: O-K he's just walking around the area.
G: Looking at all the houses.

Emphasis added. Left in context so George doesn't sue me for editing his words.

Considering the nature of the area, a pedestrian would have to look at the sky or the ground to avoid looking at houses. No witness has come forward and said Trayvon was doing something that would actually be suspicious. For example, trying doors to see if they were locked or going up to houses and peering into the windows.

 

[PhantomWolf]

George describes what Trayvon was doing to the police dispatcher:


Emphasis added. Left in context so George doesn't sue me for editing his words.

Considering the nature of the area, a pedestrian would have to look at the sky or the ground to avoid looking at houses. No witness has come forward and said Trayvon was doing something that would actually be suspicious. For example, trying doors to see if they were locked or going up to houses and peering into the windows.

You really need to watch the Neighbourhood Coordinator's testimony, especially the part around 42-46 mins where she is questioned as to what they tell the participants to look out for in suspicious people, and what to do when they see someone matching those traits.

For some clues, someone you don't know. Someone who is looking at houses and cars. Someone who entered and is walking about areas that the residents don't usually walk. Someone that appears to be just walking about, especially in the dark or the rain. Like it or not, TH was a perfect match to the sort of person that the Neighbourhood Watch participants are told to look out for and ring the non-emergency number, which is exactly what GZ did. He followed the NW playbook to the letter.

 

[Toontown]

I am of the oppinion that much of George's version of the final moments is role reversed. Try examining George's statements and for each action or utterance, ask yourself if that would make more sense if it were applied to the other person.

OK...first, GZ calls the police and then chases down the fleet defensive back.

GZ: You got a problem?
TM: No, I don't have a problem.
GZ: (Thud) You do now!
TM: (terrified screams)
GZ: You're going to die tonight.
TM: (terrified screams)
GZ: (pulls TM's hoodie away from his prone body, carefully places the gun close to the hoody, and fatally shoots TM)

Then GZ rubs his back against the grass, rubs TM's knees against the grass.

Then GZ waives his Miranda rights, gives a statement, and passes lie detector test. Amazingly, the hurriedly concocted statement is largely consistent with the evidence and witness testimony. George beats the murder rap and walks.

All hail Super George!

Does that work for you?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Do you think Serino was saying that the flashlight was sitting somewhere shining away at the very moment that Zimmerman was giving his interview? No. Serino was walking through the timeline for earlier that night. He has come to a specific Time just before the altercation when George is walking out there in the darkness and reminds George that he had a flashlight to help George fill in the context of what happened. George says that the flashlight was dead and Serino reminds him "You had to hit it a couple of times, it's on now". This doesn't help poor George so Serino drops the subject and moves on to the altercation.

I suppose that is a valid interpretation. You have to imagine serino is being clairvoyant, and knows the flashlight is on, even though he wasn't there.

I think it rather likely he tried the flashlight out, found that you had to smack it to make it work. I interpreted "It's on now" to mean "It worked when I tried it", it comes on now, because I smacked it.

Either way, no one claims to have seen a bright flashlight, much less any flashlight prior to the encounter, so it's really only important in supposing whether GZ could look for TM with the flashlight or not. If the bright flashlight worked, you would think GZ would have spotted TM. Or TM would have found that to be an event worth mentioning to RJ on the phone ? "Hey, he is searching for me with a flashlight ?"

 

[lane99]

Guess what the "B" stands for?

...By the time the jury gave it's verdict, they knew orders of magnitude more about this case and their responsibilities under the law than you've shown any indication of knowing.

A jury trial is a system for making a decision, it doesn't always arrive at the truth. We should understand the jurors can and do make mistakes in logic and the law.

To give an example, Juror B37 put great stock in the statement by a police officer that he believed George Zimmerman. Disregarding specific instructions from the judge to ignore that statement.

Touche, Kestrel. And good catch on how that juror's comment might indicate her failure to strictly obey the judge's instructions. I wonder if this point has been brought up elsewhere, in the media. Hope so.

p.s. Everyone knew the jury WOULD be influenced by Serino's opinion. At minimum on an unconscious level. But it's interesting indeed to hear a juror admit (apparently) that she, as it were, "deliberately deliberated it".
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