Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[newyorkguy]

...
As for SYG and Zimmerman, his lawyers considered requesting an SYG immunity hearing but decided against it. For two reasons: 1) If the immunity was denied it would prejudice public opinion against Zimmerman and 2) the defense would've had to reveal their defense strategy to prosecutors and they did not want to do that.

...
Is this YOUR opinion, or a fact? Maybe because it's....I dunno, not applicable to his case?

I'm surprised you're not aware that Zimmerman's defense team considered applying for SYG immunity. Doesn't that invalidate your argument that SYG had no application to this case? The fact that Zimmerman's own defense team considered it?

Mark O’Mara, a lawyer for Zimmerman, told reporters that not seeking immunity was “a tactical decision” but said the main reason was that the case has become about much more than what happened that night.

Link

The jurors thought SYG applied too.

Jurors discussed Florida’s controversial Stand Your Ground self-defense law before rendering their not-guilty verdict in George Zimmerman’s trial, one of the jurors told CNN’s Anderson Cooper...Juror B37 mentioned Stand Your Ground a second time of her own accord, saying the jury ultimately made its not-guilty verdict Saturday night based on the evidence and “because of the heat of the moment and the Stand Your Ground.”

Link

 

[Kestrel]

Can someone remind me what George Zimmerman's statements were about his verbal exchanges with Trayvon Martin, if any? I know that a lot of the initial reports about what he supposedly told the police never panned out.

I don't have a link for a witness statement handy, but here is George leading investigators on a walk through the crime scene. His description of the encounter with Trayvon is roughly 10 minutes into the video.



If I recall correctly, this video was shot the day after the shooting.

 

[Dan O.]

FTR: I don't think Zimmerman intended to assault anyone when he got out of his car. I think he was angry and irrational (what I think the evidence shows).

I agree. And I don't think he was acting stupid either. For George that comes naturally.

If we are going to speculate, had Zimmerman known of the fallout his actions resulted in I'm pretty sure he would have had a much cooler head and just waited for the police. I'm also pretty sure that neighborhood watches around America aren't scrambling to tell their volunteers to arm themselves and to get out of their vehicles when they see people they think are suspicious.

Can we agree on at least that much?

But what is the financial fallout of all this? If George is successful in a SYG hearing the state has to reemburse him for his legal costs. Their may also be compensation for his time in prison pending trial but it has already been pointed out that George brought that upon himself so it may not be covered. When the legal costs are paid for by the state, O'mera will return to George all the money his legal defense funds raised. George already told Shelly when he saw how much money was comming in: "We are going to live well".


There is no question that George will be asking for a SYG hearing. He would have to be stupid not to (ok, there is some question). But what I don't know is if George is going to try and double down by dragging Trayvon's family through a civil suit first.

 

[Emperor_Gestahl]

Thousands of teenaged boys get pummeled every day. But rarely do we hear of one that ends in death.

A witness used the colorful term "MMA style", but we don't see evidence that those devastating blows landed on Zimmerman's body.

Your first and second sentences contradict each other. I agree with your first sentence, simple pummeling doesn't generally result in serious injury or death. Not in MMA, either, or the sport would never be allowed to continue. We don't see evidence of "devastating injury" on Zimmerman because we wouldn't expect to see that. But, if someone wants to kill you then beating you unconscious is a good first step. If Martin had knocked Zimmerman out, which can happen in one punch or 50, it would then be too late for Zimmerman to defend himself against more conventional means of murder. According to GZ and the evidence, Martin had physically trapped Zimmerman in a situation where Martin could kill him. Zimmerman had no means of escape and no way of knowing whether Martin was trying to kill him, which is all that's needed to claim self defense.

The rest of what you're saying is speculation, and the burden of proof lies on the prosecution. Once Trayvon saw the gun, it's possible BOTH combatants were legitimately in fear for their lives.. At that point, if Martin were armed, he could probably have shot Zimmerman and also claimed self defense. But it was Zimmerman who shot, so all that matters for the Zimmerman trial is whether he feared for his life when he did so. That's the only question the jury had to answer.

 

[SezMe]

More refutation of the claim that SYG played no role in this case:

COOPER: Because of the two options you had, second degree murder or manslaughter, you felt neither applied?

JUROR: Right. Because of the heat of the moment and the Stand Your Ground. He had a right to defend himself. If he felt threatened that his life was going to be taken away from him or he was going to have bodily harm, he had a right.

So in addition to my earlier cites, here is one of the jurors herself stating that they discussed SYG in the deliberations and that it played a role in the final decision.

I sincerely hope that claim is put to rest.

 

[Cylinder]

George's flashlight, the police say there was nothing wrong with it.

Not true. Serino reported back to Zimmerman that it needed a few more slaps.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

It gets even much, much better. The image of the last headline I attached was mild in its distortion. Now the Daily News is reporting that "B37's fellow jurors in Trayvon Martin trial bash her for leading country to believe spoke for them"

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...se-book-pitch-article-1.1400096#ixzz2ZHKIVYe6

Is it any wonder that the majority of the country had a distorted view of the facts in this case?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Can't link to it yet because it's too new but the Colbert Report had the best comment yet about the Zimmerman case. GZ's brother notes that GZ has to look over his shoulder now everywhere he goes ..... kind of like a black teen in a hoodie.

 

[Dcdrac]

My final thoguths are on this based on the evidence presented to date:

1. zimmerman is a proven liar

2. He should not have been prosecured for murder it is obvious he did not set ou tto killbut it also clear he is gung ho individual who is on a loose trigger, so this hsouldhave been man slaughter.

3. I do not beleive for on minute his self defence pelae, but as we only have his testimony and unrelaible testimony about the oices, have to accept reasonable doubt.

4. I beleive he did trip the train of events that lead to a death that could have been avoided, he is a loose cannon with a track record of violent behaviour and I have little doubt he will be involved in something similar again in the future tripped off by his actions.

 

[Mike!]

I agree. And I don't think he was acting stupid either. For George that comes naturally.





But what is the financial fallout of all this? If George is successful in a SYG hearing the state has to reemburse him for his legal costs. Their may also be compensation for his time in prison pending trial but it has already been pointed out that George brought that upon himself so it may not be covered. When the legal costs are paid for by the state, O'mera will return to George all the money his legal defense funds raised. George already told Shelly when he saw how much money was comming in: "We are going to live well".


There is no question that George will be asking for a SYG hearing. He would have to be stupid not to (ok, there is some question). But what I don't know is if George is going to try and double down by dragging Trayvon's family through a civil suit first.

Wait a second, are you saying you think Zimmerman is going to take the Martin family to Civil court before they take him?

 

[Belz...]

Can't link to it yet because it's too new but the Colbert Report had the best comment yet about the Zimmerman case. GZ's brother notes that GZ has to look over his shoulder now everywhere he goes ..... kind of like a black teen in a hoodie.

He also feared that someone could take the law into his own hand against GZ, like some kind of vigilante. Ironic.

 

[Dan O.]

4. I beleive he did trip the train of events that lead to a death that could have been avoided, he is a loose cannon with a track record of violent behaviour and I have little doubt he will be involved in something similar again in the future tripped off by his actions.

I have no doubt that George is going to be tested and we'll see if he put on any smarts while waiting for this trial. I hope this test waits until after the civil trial. It would be a shame if the Martin's were denied compensation for the loss of their son by such a technicality.

 

[WildCat]

He also feared that someone could take the law into his own hand against GZ, like some kind of vigilante. Ironic.

Not seeing the irony there, as self defense is not vigilantism.

It is kind of ironic that here in 2013 it's civil rights supporters taking offense at due process of law and calling for extra-judicial punishment, aka lynchings.

 

[PhantomWolf]

PhantomWolf brought this up on another thread. Since it is directly discussing the case I'll reply here:




Who is this Police Coordinator? Would he or someone else representing the police have instructed George's Neighbourhood Watch group with this list?

While It is being presented here as confirming Trayvon was properly profiled as "up to no good", it could also be viewed as a play book for reporting suspiscious persons or at least a template for confirmation bias.

Seriously? Seriously?

Did you even bother watching or paying any attention to the trial? Really?

The Police Coordinator, who is actually a civilian, but hired by the SPD, is a woman to start with. You will find her testimony on YouTube, perhaps you should watch it some time.

 

[Dan O.]

Not true. Serino reported back to Zimmerman that it needed a few more slaps.

We should try to be historically accurate here... In their first interview:

Serino: OK, um, you follow this person, this person, you lose sight of this person, you’re walking in the darkness out there…you have a flashlight?
Zimmerman: It was dead. I had one, but it was dead.
Serino: Uh, you had to hit it couple times, it’s on right now. So…
Zimmerman: Oh it is?
Serino: OK. Um, it’s probably like the one I have, you gotta smack it around a couple times. Um, this person jumped, jumped you from somewhere?​

...And then the next day:

Serino: OK, you’re walking back to your car?
Zimmerman: Yes, sir,
(plays tape 2:48 to 4:03 )
Zimmerman: I’m thumping the damn flashlight as I was walking through.
(call ends)
​

Now, where do you get that Serino says he slapped George's flashlight?

And why does George still have that damn flashlight in his hand after 2 to 3 minutes? The flashlight works, it just needs a few slaps and George was thumping it a few times to get it to work. We hear him repeat the procedure 2 or three times while he is still on the phone with the dispatcher. George says he had the flashlight in his hand when the altercation began. I know it's hard to believe anything that liar says. But for this, there's is tangible evidence.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Actually, it was. Because of SYG, GZ walked away from the scene. Therefore, there were no blood tests taken nor other evidence gathered. I would sure like to know what was in his blood stream.

SYG was also mentioned in the instructions to the jury. It's written right there so you simply cannot say it was "not part of the case."

More refutation of the claim that SYG played no role in this case:

So in addition to my earlier cites, here is one of the jurors herself stating that they discussed SYG in the deliberations and that it played a role in the final decision.

I sincerely hope that claim is put to rest.

There were no earlier 'cites', just assertions.

And there was no reason to take blood tests. Do you think he spent 6 or more hours under direct observation of people trained to detect impairment and fooled them all ?

And as I said before, just because the words stand your grand were in the jury instructions, that does not make it part of the case. Stand your ground is simply part of FL self defense laws.

Here is the part the only part jury instruction that mentions stand your ground:
http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/Zimmerman_Final_Jury_Instructions.pdf

JUSTIFIABLE USE OF DEADLY FORCE
An issue in this case is whether George Zimmerman acted in self-defense. It is a
defense to the crime of Second Degree Murder, and the lesser included offense of
Manslaughter, if the death of Trayvon Martin resulted from the justifiable use of deadly force.
...
If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any
place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his
ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was
necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent
the commission of a forcible felony

 

[TheL8Elvis]

More refutation of the claim that SYG played no role in this case:



So in addition to my earlier cites, here is one of the jurors herself stating that they discussed SYG in the deliberations and that it played a role in the final decision.

I sincerely hope that claim is put to rest.

I have no doubt that George is going to be tested and we'll see if he put on any smarts while waiting for this trial. I hope this test waits until after the civil trial. It would be a shame if the Martin's were denied compensation for the loss of their son by such a technicality.

If SezMe is correct, and SYG applies, GZ is going to be immune from civil suits.

So which is it, SYG or not SYG ?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

IIRC, GZ did in fact have his blood tested, as there is a law in Florida that allows for that, if an officer has PC to believe the person is under the influence. 790.155 in FL SS is the relevant statute. I do believe that I saw that GZ's blood was in fact tested and clear of any intoxicants.

He was not tested, because no one (except people on the Internet) believed him to be under the influence of anything.

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

I think all the critical thinkers are more than willing to acknowledge that they don't know for certain what happened, that no one will ever know, and that it's even possible that GZ is guilty. What we do feel we know to a good degree of certainty, is that a rational person that analyzes the evidence and abides by the letter of the law has to find GZ not guilty. Some of us might even think he should be found guilty of something, but of the charges filed, assuming we don't ignore the law, not guilty.

Agreed. There wasn't anything proven beyond a reasonable doubt. And I've been on a couple of juries, so I know how difficult it is to reach a guilty verdict.

I don't know what threads you've been reading.

You're saying that this thread has established a plausible motive for TM to have attacked GZ?

...who was an out of shape fat guy that TM probably figured he could take easily. See, two can play at that game.

An out of shape fat guy carrying a gun in a holster.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Mind boggling stupidity...

http://frederickleatherman.com/2013/07/16/prosecute-zimmerman-for-committing-a-federal-hate-crime/

I think the problem with the verdict in this case was the de-emphasis on race and the presence of stealth jurors on the jury who were influenced by O’Mara’s year-long campaign, aided and abetted by the media, to acquit his client in the court of public opinion.

I believe B-37, and possibly two others, lied their way onto that jury determined to vote NG, regardless of the evidence. If I’m right, they should be prosecuted for perjury.