Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[bynmdsue]

Thanks, I guess I don't watch enough CSI.

In real life I think the most famous example might be the Drew Peterson case where a new autopsy following exhumation revealed she had help drowning in the tub.

 

[triforcharity]

And since George said his head was bashed repeatedly against he sidewalk, we must believe it. Never mind that there isn't any physical evidence to support it.

This is where you go horribly wrong. The doctor (Forensic Pathologist Dr. Vincent Di Maio, a HIGHLY respected and VERY knowledgeable on injuries including GSW) testified for the defense saying that in fact, his injuries DO match with GZ's claim of having his head bashed on concrete. May I ask if you even watched or read about the trial?

 

[WildCat]

FTR: I don't think Zimmerman intended to assault anyone when he got out of his car. I think he was angry and irrational (what I think the evidence shows). If we are going to speculate, had Zimmerman known of the fallout his actions resulted in I'm pretty sure he would have had a much cooler head and just waited for the police. I'm also pretty sure that neighborhood watches around America aren't scrambling to tell their volunteers to arm themselves and to get out of their vehicles when they see people they think are suspicious.

Can we agree on at least that much?

I think everyone agrees it was unwise for Zimmerman to get out of his car, but it wasn't illegal. And there's nothing to indicate Zimmerman ever chased Martin, as has been claimed. In fact the evidence suggests Zimmerman never ventured south of the "T".

 

[Metullus]

If you're talking about Di Miao, oh, he knows exactly what he's talking about. And if he had been hired by the prosecutors, he likely would have testified Zimmergun's injuries were insignificant and resulted from a minor and brief tussle.

Perhaps it's just a coincidence, but seems curious that his medical opinions always seem to fall in line with whatever the party paying him wants to hear. No matter how far-fetched that makes those opinions. As, for example, when he did his best to help wacko gun-nut Phil Spector beat his murder rap.

From a skeptics point of view, appeals to authority are even more ill-advised when the "authority" has a dog in the race, and even has a financial incentive to help that dog win.
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This I can speak to, kinda, sorta...

I am a consultant and I am not infrequently called to testify on behalf of clients.

I will be paid on an hourly basis for my services. I will have no financial stake in the outcome of the trial.

I will have come to the opinion about which I will testify after as thorough a review of the available evidence as I can possibly make. If my opinion is one that supports my client's case I might be asked to testify. If it does not support my client's case I will not be asked to testify. Probably 40% + of the time my opinion does not support my client's position - in those instances I will not be asked to testify. It is not uncommon for my client's in these cases to retain me to provide insight into the weaknesses of their position as they prepare for trial.

Sometimes, not often, and never with repeat clients, a client tries to shape my opinion by limiting my access to materials that he thinks might hurt his case. This tactic never works to the client's advantage.

There are "you tell the lie and I will swear to it" consultants, but these tend to become well known and are not terribly effective on the stand.

I would not expect a lawyer to put on the stand an expert whose opinion does not support his case.

 

[Newtons Bit]

FTR: I don't think Zimmerman intended to assault anyone when he got out of his car. I think he was angry and irrational (what I think the evidence shows). If we are going to speculate, had Zimmerman known of the fallout his actions resulted in I'm pretty sure he would have had a much cooler head and just waited for the police. I'm also pretty sure that neighborhood watches around America aren't scrambling to tell their volunteers to arm themselves and to get out of their vehicles when they see people they think are suspicious.

Can we agree on at least that much?

I would wager that their training now includes the following roleplay:

Suspicious Person: Why are you following me?!

Watch Volunteer: What're you doing here?
Watch Volunteer: Good evening, I'm a member of the local neighborhood watch. My name is <insert name here> I haven't seen you around here before so I just wanted to say hi and introduce myself.

 

[Kestrel]

FTR: I don't think Zimmerman intended to assault anyone when he got out of his car. I think he was angry and irrational (what I think the evidence shows). If we are going to speculate, had Zimmerman known of the fallout his actions resulted in I'm pretty sure he would have had a much cooler head and just waited for the police. I'm also pretty sure that neighborhood watches around America aren't scrambling to tell their volunteers to arm themselves and to get out of their vehicles when they see people they think are suspicious.

Can we agree on at least that much?

Sure. I don't think that was George's plan when he left his truck. The problem is that George has a history of doing stupid things when the adrenaline kicks in. Like the incidents that got him sent to anger management classes and triggered the restraining orders.

What might George do if Trayvon doesn't show him proper respect?

 

[Cylinder]

How did the evidence of George's head being slammed on the concrete get entered in the trial without the witness presenting that claim being subject to cross examination?

If you mean Zimmerman's version of the altercation, the state decided to enter it as a statement against interest exception to hearsay. In a case that has strong evidence favoring the state or even ambiguous evidence, the strategy is to magnify the inconsistencies using the detectives who took the statements then parade the evidence experts to refute the possibility of the defendant's initial claims. That places pressure on the defendant to testify to try to mitigate the inconsistent statements which gives the state a chance of breaking the defendant's story in front of the jury. That never was going to happen here.

Both detectives testified that his story may have been exaggerated but it was consistent and believable. There was no physical evidence that contradicted it. There was no credible eyewitness/earwitness testimony to contradict it. All the state really had to do was place Zimmerman and Martin on their feet and south of the body at some time before the gunshot to turn Zimmerman's claims into lies. They would have got the first aggressor instruction and probably manslaughter at minimum - the state would have been fighting to exclude manslaughter and the defense to allow it. Thirty years is better than life.

Instead, after Serino and Singleton testified, all the state had left was trying to confuse the evidence (Zimmerman carried his gun at the 3 o'clock per OFC Smith - not at the 5 o'clock per John Guy) and appeal to emotion. At that point it really becomes the simple question of whether or not it was reasonable for Zimmerman to fear death or great bodily injury in those circumstances. The jurors said yes and I think the objective evidence says yes as well. The state's only real hope for conviction with this fact set was for the jury to disregard the law because of the emotional tragedy. That's why Wolfinger settled on a grand jury and Corey dissolved it. This case would have been no-billed in all likelihood.

So why did the state include the testimony in the first place if they knew Serino and Singleton were exculpatory witnesses? They had to. First, the defense would be able to argue to the jury that the state had hours of statements that they didn't enter as evidence, but more importantly without the statements there would be nothing to argue against regarding the self-defense claim introduced by the collateral evidence -Zimmerman's statements to OFC Smith, the 911 calls and callers' testimony, the injury photographs.

I don't want to bring it up here for any reason other than to refute the meme that the state didn't do their best in this case. There were a few people on this board that looked objectively at the evidence and noticed that it strongly supported Zimmerman's account.

 

[Dissolution]

Sure. I don't think that was George's plan when he left his truck. The problem is that George has a history of doing stupid things when the adrenaline kicks in. Like the incidents that got him sent to anger management classes and triggered the restraining orders.

What might George do if Trayvon doesn't show him proper respect?

Break his own nose, bang his own head on the ground and then pull Martin on top of him so that he could shoot him and claim self defence?
Am I warm?

 

[RepresentativePress]

How did the evidence of George's head being slammed on the concrete get entered in the trial without the witness presenting that claim being subject to cross examination?

You know I heard a pundit on MSNBC making that claim BUT I don't see what it is based on. I actually am watching videos of the trail and I saw the prosecution ask John Good if he was able to see that part of it (the specific part of Zimmerman's head on the sidewalk) so I don't know what the MSNBC pundit or you are talking about. By the way, you really should watch John Good's testimony it corroborates Zimmerman's account, even the positioning in the assault from the grass right over to the sidewalk which gave MArtin the position to slam Zimmerman's head on the concrete. Martin's back was obstructing the view of the exact contact point but the location (and the wounds) confirm Zimmerman's head was slammed on the sidewalk by Martin. BTW, Martin didn't stop brutalizing Zimmerman even after Zimmerman screamed for help nor did he stop even after the neighbor yelled at him to stop!
John Good FULL Testimony. George Zimmerman Trial http://youtu.be/DsdLMBUvhAM

 

[triforcharity]

If you're talking about Di Miao, oh, he knows exactly what he's talking about. And if he had been hired by the prosecutors, he likely would have testified Zimmergun's injuries were insignificant and resulted from a minor and brief tussle.

Perhaps it's just a coincidence, but seems curious that his medical opinions always seem to fall in line with whatever the party paying him wants to hear. No matter how far-fetched that makes those opinions. As, for example, when he did his best to help wacko gun-nut Phil Spector beat his murder rap.

From a skeptics point of view, appeals to authority are even more ill-advised when the "authority" has a dog in the race, and even has a financial incentive to help that dog win.
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Um....do you know if he's ever been called as an expert witness, looked at the evidence objectively, and said to the person "Look, this is what the evidence says. Sorry, but I won't be of any assistance to you"? I've had to do this on at least one occasion. I'd be willing to bet him, as a HIGHLY respected MD, has done exactly that.

 

[Kestrel]

I think everyone agrees it was unwise for Zimmerman to get out of his car, but it wasn't illegal. And there's nothing to indicate Zimmerman ever chased Martin, as has been claimed. In fact the evidence suggests Zimmerman never ventured south of the "T".

Listen to the audio recording of George's call the police.

134 seconds into the recording is the sound of the truck door closing after George gets out of his truck. This is followed by wind noises and other sounds consistent with George running. 10 seconds after the door is closed, the dispatcher picks up on this.

Dispatcher: Are you following him?
George: Ya.

George is following Trayvon at a run. Chasing is a good word to describe that action.

We also know that Trayvon dropped his cell phone at the start of the altercation. That phone was found 40 ft south of the T.

Yes, there is evidence that George ventured south of the T.

 

[bynmdsue]

I would wager that their training now includes the following roleplay:

Suspicious Person: Why are you following me?!

Watch Volunteer: What're you doing here?
Watch Volunteer: Good evening, I'm a member of the local neighborhood watch. My name is <insert name here> I haven't seen you around here before so I just wanted to say hi and introduce myself.

That's pretty good, after all I'm sure Trayvon never thought the gay rapist following him might also lie to him. Rachel Jeantel is the gift that keeps on giving.

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

Because the language on the instructions is confusing ? Are you saying that a nebulous jury question is evidence of what happened feb 26th ?

No, I'm saying that if the jury thought that the evidence was as overwhelming that TM engaged in an unprovoked attack on GZ as some posters in this thread have implied then the jury wouldn't have needed an explanation of the manslaughter law because the shooting would clearly have been an act of self-defense.

I'm not planning on going to some protest over this verdict, because I happen to agree that there was more than sufficient reasonable doubt about what happened. And it is plausible that GZ's story is basically true. I just find it curious that so many people who claim to be "critical thinkers" seem so certain that they know what happened. Especially when they can't come up with a motive for TM attacking GZ, who had a substantial weight advantage on TM.

 

[newyorkguy]

How does enhanced Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground laws figure into this? How could they not?

Those are just nicknames for the prevailing self-defense laws in Florida. This was a self-defense case. That was the defense, that Zimmerman was defending himself when he shot Martin. I'm not alone in thinking this:

Under the "Stand Your Ground" law people fearing for their lives can use deadly force without having to retreat from a confrontation, even when it is possible. US Attorney General Eric Holder

Link

Some critics take it a step further. That in SYG states people who are armed are more likely to put themselves in danger if they believe the person they're confronting is unlikely to be armed.

As for SYG and Zimmerman, his lawyers considered requesting an SYG immunity hearing but decided against it. For two reasons: 1) If the immunity was denied it would prejudice public opinion against Zimmerman and 2) the defense would've had to reveal their defense strategy to prosecutors and they did not want to do that.

 

[Newtons Bit]

That's pretty good, after all I'm sure Trayvon never thought the gay rapist following him might also lie to him. Rachel Jeantel is the gift that keeps on giving.

I'm not sure if it would have prevented the fight from starting, but it would certainly make GZ's case easier if he identified himself as a member of the NW.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

And it is plausible that GZ's story is basically true. I just find it curious that so many people who claim to be "critical thinkers" seem so certain that they know what happened.

I think all the critical thinkers are more than willing to acknowledge that they don't know for certain what happened, that no one will ever know, and that it's even possible that GZ is guilty. What we do feel we know to a good degree of certainty, is that a rational person that analyzes the evidence and abides by the letter of the law has to find GZ not guilty. Some of us might even think he should be found guilty of something, but of the charges filed, assuming we don't ignore the law, not guilty.

Especially when they can't come up with a motive for TM attacking GZ...

I don't know what threads you've been reading.

who had a substantial weight advantage on TM.

...who was an out of shape fat guy that TM probably figured he could take easily. See, two can play at that game.

 

[WildCat]

Listen to the audio recording of George's call the police.

134 seconds into the recording is the sound of the truck door closing after George gets out of his truck. This is followed by wind noises and other sounds consistent with George running. 10 seconds after the door is closed, the dispatcher picks up on this.

Dispatcher: Are you following him?
George: Ya.

George is following Trayvon at a run. Chasing is a good word to describe that action.

We also know that Trayvon dropped his cell phone at the start of the altercation. That phone was found 40 ft south of the T.

Yes, there is evidence that George ventured south of the T.

Really? Zimmerman is running so fast it's making wind noise on his phone - with his cell phone in one hand at his head and his flashlight in the other? And it doesn't even show in his voice?

Or maybe it was just wind noise caused by... wind?

 

[bynmdsue]

Under the "Stand Your Ground" law people fearing for their lives can use deadly force without having to retreat from a confrontation, even when it is possible. US Attorney General Eric Holder

How about people who can't retreat? Zimmerman didn't use deadly force until he was pinned beneath his attacker.

Thankfully this didn't go down in another state like this one...

CALJIC No. 5.50, Self-Defense—Assailed Person Need Not Retreat
"A person threatened with an attack that justifies the exercise of the right of self-defense need not retreat. In the exercise of his right of self-defense, a person may stand his ground and defend himself by the use of all force and means which would appear to be necessary to a reasonable person in a similar situation and with similar knowledge; and a person may pursue his assailant until he has secured himself from danger if that course likewise appears reasonably necessary. This law applies even though the assailed person might more easily have gained safety by flight or by withdrawing from the scene."

Better not start none in the hick backwater state of California.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Listen to the audio recording of George's call the police.

134 seconds into the recording is the sound of the truck door closing after George gets out of his truck. This is followed by wind noises and other sounds consistent with George running. 10 seconds after the door is closed, the dispatcher picks up on this.

Dispatcher: Are you following him?
George: Ya.

George is following Trayvon at a run. Chasing is a good word to describe that action.

We also know that Trayvon dropped his cell phone at the start of the altercation. That phone was found 40 ft south of the T.

Yes, there is evidence that George ventured south of the T.

Where precisely would I find more about this phone call? I believe you are the first to notice it, I don't think I've ever seen it discussed here before. Same goes for the latter info. Did you point this out to the prosecutors?

 

[Toontown]

Sure. I don't think that was George's plan when he left his truck. The problem is that George has a history of doing stupid things when the adrenaline kicks in. Like the incidents that got him sent to anger management classes and triggered the restraining orders.

What might George do if Trayvon doesn't show him proper respect?

George also has a history of passing a lie detector test before the sun rose on the tragedy, in which this specific question was asked and answered.

We're not the jury, so we get to consider all the evidence.