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Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

How does enhanced Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground laws figure into this? How could they not?

Well, castle is someone's home or vehicle. So that's out as a possibility. SYG says that I do not need to flee first if I am in reasonable, imminent fear of GBH or death. Since he was not ABLE to flee, the SYG laws are NOT applicable. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. I can link them if need be.

Those are just nicknames for the prevailing self-defense laws in Florida.

No they're not. They're provisions WITHIN the SD laws of Florida.

This was a self-defense case.

There you go.

That was the defense, that Zimmerman was defending himself when he shot Martin. I'm not alone in thinking this:

Link

Yes, and? Do you have a point?

Some critics take it a step further. That in SYG states people who are armed are more likely to put themselves in danger if they believe the person they're confronting is unlikely to be armed.

People can claim all they want, it doesn't make it factual.

As for SYG and Zimmerman, his lawyers considered requesting an SYG immunity hearing but decided against it. For two reasons: 1) If the immunity was denied it would prejudice public opinion against Zimmerman and 2) the defense would've had to reveal their defense strategy to prosecutors and they did not want to do that.

Is this YOUR opinion, or a fact? Maybe because it's....I dunno, not applicable to his case?
 
How about people who can't retreat? Zimmerman didn't use deadly force until he was pinned beneath his attacker.

...

The problem with SYG is, there are many cases like Zimmerman.

Someone brings a gun to a fist fight. What critics say is, in a non-SYG state Zimmerman might not have left his vehicle in the first place. He might not have been as comfortable with the notion of shooting an unarmed man. He might've feared, "What if this guy -- unknown to me --- lives here? What if he gets angry at me for following him? How would I protect myself other than shooting him?" At that point he might decide to stay put. So when the NEN operator asks him:

"Are you following him?"
He can answer, "Am I following him? Umm, no I'm not."

It's not just a few people on this message board who are suggesting this. It's Eric Holder the US Attorney General. It's Mayor Michael Bloomberg of NY City.

Zimmerman studied Florida self-defense laws, his community college instructor testified to that. SYG has created a lot of controversy in Florida, for precisely the reasons I've outlined. It's counter-intuitive to think Zimmerman wouldn't have been aware of that.
 
I think everyone agrees it was unwise for Zimmerman to get out of his car, but it wasn't illegal. And there's nothing to indicate Zimmerman ever chased Martin, as has been claimed. In fact the evidence suggests Zimmerman never ventured south of the "T".


What evidence is that? The entire debris field is spread out south of the tee.

Did this graphic get presented in court?

picture.php



The closest item to the tee was George's car keys. Multiple witnesses testified that George returned towards the tee after the shooting before he was met by one of the neighbors and aprehended by the police. George could have dropped his keys at that point so as not to have anything in his hands that might alert the police when they approach.

Everything else is well south of the tee. George's cell phone, that was in his pocket when he claims he was accosted. George's flashlight, the police say there was nothing wrong with it. The plastic bag from the 7-11 store, why is the plastic bag loose? Trayvon's cell phone, his father says this phone is usually clipped to the hoodie pocket and the headset cord is visible in front of the hoodie in the 7-11 video. The bullet casing. And Trayvon's body.

When George says "**** he's running", George is in his truck and you hear him park the truck, get out , close the door and then you hear wind noise. The dispatcher asks George: "are you following him?" and George responds "yes". Somehow people are able to take from this that George was not chasing after Trayvon.

There is also a bit we don't know the full detals of yet. When George is driving from the clubhouse to the cut-through, is he creeping along right behind Trayvon? Or, did he loose track of Trayvon when he pulled out of the clubhouse parking area to turn onto twin tree lane and Trayvon at that time ran down twin tree lane and into the cut-through. Remember, Rachel says she encouraged Trayvon to run. *This would explain why George doesn't know that trayvon turned south at the tee. He only sees Trayvon from a distance under the streetlight heading into the cut-through. By the time he gets up there, Trayvon is already in the shadows and isn't seen turning south. George would then run straight through the cut-through looking south at the tee but continuing on to Retreat View Circle.

If trayvon hasn't been staying in shape since his football days, a sprint from the mailboxes would have winded him. Rachel also mentions that Trayvon sounds out of breath at this point. Trayvon may be hiding near the tee and would see George running past. He best bet at evasion would be to stay hidden and wait for George to return to his truck.

2 to 3 minutes elapse while George finishes his call with the dispatcher before we get to the altercation that causes Trayvon's phone to hang up. Others have pointed out that this is long enough for Trayvon to have gone home and returned. But Trayvon can't go anywhere. If he starts walking home that "creepy ass cracker" will be able to see him when he crosses the tee headed back to his truck. But if there was time for Trayvon to make that trip, there is time for George to walk to the south corner of Retreat View Circle and Twin Trees Lane, turning at the street sign and following the sidewalk back between the buildings.

If we recall from Rachel's interview, when Trayvon next spots George he says: "now he's behind me". This statement doesn't make sense if George is towards the tee from Trayvon because that is the direction always thought George was. "Now he's behind me" makes sense if Trayvon is turned around watching the tee and George comes up from the south.
 
Originally Posted by Frank Newgent
Had TM been able to have wrestled the gun away and then shot and killed GZ he should have been able to get off the way GZ just did (assuming he came up with a reasonably-sounding narrative as GZ did).

In that case as in this one we would have only that survivor's account to go by.

The problem is that's built on an assumption that I would believe Martin's account without comparing it to other evidence. I wouldn't. We would be left with a dead Zimmerman who has a broken nose, was seen being pummeled (or that's what it looked like) and injuries to the back of the head. It would be pretty clear that Martin would be facing the choice between 2nd degree and 3rd degree felony murder.

"I was walking back from the store when the dude in a truck scoped me out and followed me. I ran behind the houses away from the street.
I thought he left and was chatting on the phone to a friend for several minutes. Then someone (who I later identified as the guy in the truck) leaped out of the bushes and tried to grab me. I fought back, realized he has a gun. We fought for it and it went off. Then the cops showed up and arrested me for being black" (OK maybe not the last)

OK because it's Judge Zimmerman's son, the case goes to trial, but I can't see a conviction.

ME testify that George's injuries were minimal "consistent with a single blow". Also that no wounds, even defensive wounds, to indicate that a MMA "ground and pound" was happening.

[Possibly] finding trace amounts of Temazepam in GZ, admitting on cross that it couldn't be ruled out that it might have affected behaviour )[/Possilbly]

The NEN testyify to GZ's aggressive language.
George not able to claim "looking for a address" so no explanation of the time after the NEN call ended where he was apparently just sitting around like a potted palm.

Any jury should return Not Guilty.
 
Listen to the audio recording of George's call the police.

134 seconds into the recording is the sound of the truck door closing after George gets out of his truck. This is followed by wind noises and other sounds consistent with George running. 10 seconds after the door is closed, the dispatcher picks up on this.

Dispatcher: Are you following him?
George: Ya.

George is following Trayvon at a run. Chasing is a good word to describe that action.

We also know that Trayvon dropped his cell phone at the start of the altercation. That phone was found 40 ft south of the T.

Yes, there is evidence that George ventured south of the T.


We also hear GZ say OK when told that they don't need him to do that. How do we know, prove, that he did continue to follow TM instead to going for a street address as he claims.

Do you have any good maps showing where all the evidence is marked? Keys, etc....

TM's cell phone cuts off but how do you know it didn't drop to the ground later? Couldn't it have cut off and dropped to the ground at different times?

The phone was cut off before Rachel heard the screaming and shot. Wasn't the body found close to the phone? How does it make sense then that the fight started South? How do you explain the keys and flashlight at the beginning of the T?
 
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Here is one evidence map, although I would love if someone has a better one.


S6KVqst.jpg
 
First, "stand your ground" was not part of the case.

Stand your ground was not an issue in this case.
Actually, it was. Because of SYG, GZ walked away from the scene. Therefore, there were no blood tests taken nor other evidence gathered. I would sure like to know what was in his blood stream.

SYG was also mentioned in the instructions to the jury. It's written right there so you simply cannot say it was "not part of the case."
 
Did Georges injuries result from Trayvon pounding his head against the sidewalk, or from the scuffle resulting from when George tried to tackle Trayvon to make sure he didn't get away?
Do you have any evidence of this tackling occurring? I've not seen any, not in court, and not in any evidence that was discussed. Where's the injuries to Treyvon from being tackled on the sidewalk? Where's the injuries consistent with Zimmerman tackling Treyvon? If it occurred in the grass, that may be possible, though. I'll give you that.

However, your post asks where the evidence for TM having attacked GZ. Well, it's in Dr. Vincent Di Maio's testimony. It's in evidence accepted by the court, and also by the prosecution and defense. It's very much in evidence. Is there evidence that the evidence is wrong?
 
The way I look at the verdict is, the jury presumably disregarded everything that happened prior to the final encounter. Under Florida law that was probably proper.

Under Florida's enhanced Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground, if Zimmerman thought Martin was breaking the law -- or was planning to -- he had the right to take action above and beyond merely calling the police. Once the fight started, no matter why it started or who started it, Zimmerman had the right to use deadly force if HE (Zimmerman) feared great bodily harm. I agree, consistent with the evidence, I too can believe Zimmerman feared great bodily harm.

This is NOT a SYG or a CD law. It never has been, and never will be. The CD refers to a person's "castle" or his home. In some states (FL) it also extends to their occupied vehicle. SYG says that a reasonable person is in imminent fear of GBH or death, can use up to deadly force without first having to attempt to flee. GZ could NOT flee. He was pinned under TM being beaten and having his head smashed. That is ABSOLUTELY tradition SD. He didn't have an opportunity to "stand his ground". So, neither of these portions of the SD law apply.
 
I would wager that their training now includes the following roleplay:

Suspicious Person: Why are you following me?!

Watch Volunteer: What're you doing here?
Watch Volunteer: Good evening, I'm a member of the local neighborhood watch. My name is <insert name here> I haven't seen you around here before so I just wanted to say hi and introduce myself.
Can someone remind me what George Zimmerman's statements were about his verbal exchanges with Trayvon Martin, if any? I know that a lot of the initial reports about what he supposedly told the police never panned out.
 
I can't wait until all the outrage starts over this one.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/07/16/3503657/juror-trayvon-played-huge-role.html

The juror conceded that Zimmerman had exercised bad judgment when he got out of his car to follow Trayvon, setting into motion the chain of events that led to the fatal shooting of the unarmed teen.

Zimmerman “started the ball rolling,” the juror said. “He could have avoided the whole situation by staying in the car.” But “when the end came to the end, he was justified in shooting Trayvon Martin,” the juror said.


When asked what she would say to Trayvon’s parents, the juror responded: “I would say, I’m terribly sorry for your loss. It’s a tragedy…. I didn’t know him, but I felt their pain because of his death.”

Fighting back tears, she added: “I felt bad that we couldn’t give them the verdict that they wanted. But legally, we couldn’t do that.”

The article title is "Juror: Trayvon played “huge role” in own death" Interestingly, their is not a single quote in the article where she says those precise words, so who knows if she did or the paper just decided to "help her out a little" to create a headline that would get as many hits as possible. Not that the media would ever report inaccurately about this case ;).
 
Actually, it was. Because of SYG, GZ walked away from the scene. Therefore, there were no blood tests taken nor other evidence gathered. I would sure like to know what was in his blood stream.

SYG was also mentioned in the instructions to the jury. It's written right there so you simply cannot say it was "not part of the case."

That's incorrect.

What blood tests did you want the police to do, and where under the SYG laws does it say no blood can be drawn and no evidence can be gathered ?

SYG shares some language in jury instructions with self defense, that does not make it part of the jury instructions.

The misinformation still flying around this thread is scary.
 
Thousands of teenaged boys get pummeled every day. But rarely do we hear of one that ends in death.

A witness used the colorful term "MMA style", but we don't see evidence that those devastating blows landed on Zimmerman's body. (Oddly enough, it was George who had been taking MMA classes at the time of the shooting). When further questioned, all the witness really saw was a couple of figures and flailing arms. Entirely consistent with Trayvon on top of George and holding George's arms to keep from being hit. Trayvon may even have been let up on George, assuming he would behave like a kid in a schoolyard fight. Accept that he had lost, leave Trayvon alone, and think twice about trying to grab a "criminal" that he hadn't actually witnessed doing anything wrong.

But we can't believe the witness that said the last words she heard was Trayvon saying "get off, get off". We can't believe the George who had escalated this situation several times escalated it again by trying to physically detain Trayvon. Making sure this ******* didn't get away like all the others.

Is it reasonable to believe that Trayvon would be talking on the phone as he hid in the bushes to ambush George? Even black teenagers are bright enough to know that people can hear them when they talk. So why did George tell that whopper to the police in his description of what happened.

The evidence is entirely consistent with George attempting to grab Trayvon and Trayvon responding in self defense. We didn't find George's blood on the sidewalk showing were his head was being bashed. We didn't find Georges blood on Trayvon's hands. The defense claimed it was washed away by the rain, but Trayvon was found with his hands under his body and covered with a plastic sheet after the police arrived. We don't see the abrasions on Trayvon's hands that would result from being the aggressor in a drawn out bare knuckle fight.

So, did the jurors find GZ not guilty because they are stupid, or didn't know all these 'facts' you are pointing out, or what ?
 
Actually, it was. Because of SYG, GZ walked away from the scene. Therefore, there were no blood tests taken nor other evidence gathered. I would sure like to know what was in his blood stream.

SYG was also mentioned in the instructions to the jury. It's written right there so you simply cannot say it was "not part of the case."

IIRC, GZ did in fact have his blood tested, as there is a law in Florida that allows for that, if an officer has PC to believe the person is under the influence. 790.155 in FL SS is the relevant statute. I do believe that I saw that GZ's blood was in fact tested and clear of any intoxicants.
 
What evidence is that? The entire debris field is spread out south of the tee.

Did this graphic get presented in court?
I thought it was obvious I was talking about up until the time they made contact, when it was claimed Zimmerman was "chasing" Martin.
 
What evidence is that? The entire debris field is spread out south of the tee.

Did this graphic get presented in court?

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=868&pictureid=6334[/qimg]


The closest item to the tee was George's car keys. Multiple witnesses testified that George returned towards the tee after the shooting before he was met by one of the neighbors and aprehended by the police. George could have dropped his keys at that point so as not to have anything in his hands that might alert the police when they approach.1
Everything else is well south of the tee. George's cell phone, that was in his pocket when he claims he was accosted. George's flashlight, the police say there was nothing wrong with it.2 The plastic bag from the 7-11 store, why is the plastic bag loose? Trayvon's cell phone, his father says this phone is usually clipped to the hoodie pocket3 and the headset cord is visible in front of the hoodie in the 7-11 video. The bullet casing. And Trayvon's body.

When George says "**** he's running", George is in his truck and you hear him park the truck, get out , close the door and then you hear wind noise. The dispatcher asks George: "are you following him?" and George responds "yes". Somehow people are able to take from this that George was not chasing after Trayvon.4
There is also a bit we don't know the full detals of yet. When George is driving from the clubhouse to the cut-through, is he creeping along right behind Trayvon? Or, did he loose track of Trayvon when he pulled out of the clubhouse parking area to turn onto twin tree lane and Trayvon at that time ran down twin tree lane and into the cut-through. Remember, Rachel says she encouraged Trayvon to run. *This would explain why George doesn't know that trayvon turned south at the tee. He only sees Trayvon from a distance under the streetlight heading into the cut-through. By the time he gets up there, Trayvon is already in the shadows and isn't seen turning south. George would then run straight through the cut-through looking south at the tee but continuing on to Retreat View Circle.

If trayvon hasn't been staying in shape since his football days, a sprint from the mailboxes would have winded him. Rachel also mentions that Trayvon sounds out of breath at this point. Trayvon may be hiding near the tee and would see George running past.He best bet at evasion would be to stay hidden and wait for George to return to his truck.5
2 to 3 minutes elapse while George finishes his call with the dispatcher before we get to the altercation that causes Trayvon's phone to hang up. Others have pointed out that this is long enough for Trayvon to have gone home and returned. But Trayvon can't go anywhere. If he starts walking home that "creepy ass cracker" will be able to see him when he crosses the tee headed back to his truck. But if there was time for Trayvon to make that trip, there is time for George to walk to the south corner of Retreat View Circle and Twin Trees Lane, turning at the street sign and following the sidewalk back between the buildings.

If we recall from Rachel's interview, when Trayvon next spots George he says: "now he's behind me".7 This statement doesn't make sense if George is towards the tee from Trayvon because that is the direction always thought George was. "Now he's behind me" makes sense if Trayvon is turned around watching the tee and George comes up from the south.

1.No evidence supports GZ, criminal mastermind, went back to plant his keys at the Tee. Nor did the prosecution ever imply that happened.

2. Serino said you have to hit the flashlight to get it to work, that is not the police saying "there is nothing wrong with it"

3. There is no clip on that phone

4. Somehow, people can determine that it was not windy but that GZ was running, even though he in no way sounds out of breath

5. Why didn't Rachel jeantel say TM told he he was hiding ? He told her he put up his hoody, but not that he was hiding ?

6. Because it is so light back there, GZ can see him 50 feet away ? Instead, he is hiding in the Bushed BDLR says arent there ?

7. no, she says TM reports 'he is still following me'
http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/deedeestatetranscript.pdf

Dee Dee: And then he told me like the guy was getting close..like..and he told me the guy was
getting real close to him. The next I hear, “What are you following me for?”
BDLR: OK, so let me make sure I understand this…so, Trayvon tells you the guy’s getting closer
to him…
Dee Dee: Yeah.
BDLR: …and then you hear Trayvon saying something…
Dee Dee: Yeah.
BDLR: And what do you hear Trayvon saying?
Dee Dee: “Why you followin’ me for?”
 
It looks like it took CNN about exactly 30 minutes to come up with an inflammatory sounding headline to create the appearance of controversy between the jurors. See attachment with huge headline "She Doesn't Speak for Us".

But the actual statement released on behalf of the jurors is this:

"We, the undersigned jurors, understand there is a great deal of interest in this case. But we ask you to remember that we are not public officials and we did not invite this type of attention into our lives," they said.

"We also wish to point out that the opinions of Juror B37, expressed on the Anderson Cooper show were her own, and not in any way representative of the jurors listed below."
 

Attachments

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PhantomWolf brought this up on another thread. Since it is directly discussing the case I'll reply here:

And what do people up to no good look like?

According to the Police Coordinator, things that Neighbourhood Watch are to watch for...

- A person you don't recognise
- A person that enters the area via ways that aren't normal entrances
- A person that is wandering about under unusual circumstances, e.g. in the dark or raining
- A person that is taking interest in the houses and/or vehicles that are around

Sound like anyone?


Who is this Police Coordinator? Would he or someone else representing the police have instructed George's Neighbourhood Watch group with this list?

While It is being presented here as confirming Trayvon was properly profiled as "up to no good", it could also be viewed as a play book for reporting suspiscious persons or at least a template for confirmation bias.
 
I can't wait until all the outrage starts over this one.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/07/16/3503657/juror-trayvon-played-huge-role.html






The article title is "Juror: Trayvon played “huge role” in own death" Interestingly, their is not a single quote in the article where she says those precise words, so who knows if she did or the paper just decided to "help her out a little" to create a headline that would get as many hits as possible. Not that the media would ever report inaccurately about this case ;).


???
Isn't it quoted in the first line of the article?
 

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