Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Wildhorses]

I like the way RS is attacking the case finally.

I am disappointed that AK feels no duty to assist in any way. I suppose he feels screwed while she feels she can rest on her laurels because USA would never send her back to Italy.

Raffa works tirelessly thru the internet with his site and Facebook and Twitter. Knox (besides her book) remains mute. If she wants her ridiculous case to be better known in the mainstream then she should get off her azz and get to work. Just saying...

I disagree.

If I were on board the PR supertanker, I'd strongly advise Amanda to keep a low profile. Too many people and too many members of the Italian judiciary love to hate her. Raffaele isn't a lightning rod for hatred/criticism/suspicion the way she is.

In Amanda's case, a single typo could get the haters more riled up.

 

[Rolfe]

Sounds great. No norovirus I hope. But seriously, TOD based on digestion ought to feature prominently. Grinder has forgotten the prosecution can also call on the guy who argues in a brilliant and learned article that she had another pizza when she got home.

One lady taken off the ship at Longyearbyen when she broke her hip in the shower - the contralateral hip was already a replacement. I believe she's still in Tromso, where they airlifted her. And another lady's holiday spoiled by a badly sprained ankle meaning she couldn't leave the ship. But no infectious disease. (I believe the ship had norovirus when it set off on a cruise to the Amazon a year or two ago, but all clear now.)

The "brilliant and learned article" falls at the first hurdle. Where in Meredith's jejunum is the pizza she ate with her friends?

Rolfe.

 

[anglolawyer]

One lady taken off the ship at Longyearbyen when she broke her hip in the shower - the contralateral hip was already a replacement. I believe she's still in Tromso, where they airlifted her. And another lady's holiday spoiled by a badly sprained ankle meaning she couldn't leave the ship. But no infectious disease. (I believe the ship had norovirus when it set off on a cruise to the Amazon a year or two ago, but all clear now.)

The "brilliant and learned article" falls at the first hurdle. Where in Meredith's jejunum is the pizza she ate with her friends?

Rolfe.

Are you with Hurtigruten? Sounds really wonderful.

Like I said, you, or someone like you, should give evidence in Florence. An early TOD knocks out Nara and Monachia and forces a pre-9.30 murder (because of Curatolo) and an even more improbable scenario (if that's possible) than Massei's inanity.

 

[Grinder]

Like I said, you, or someone like you, should give evidence in Florence. An early TOD knocks out Nara and Monachia and forces a pre-9.30 murder (because of Curatolo) and an even more improbable scenario (if that's possible) than Massei's inanity.

If the TOD can be set before 10, even without Curatolo, the timing gets very difficult for the prosecution. It undoes much of Massei (fooling with phones etc.) and takes out the ear witnesses and makes their inclusion look ridiculous. They would have to contend that the SC mandated sex-game was organized and "played" in less that 40 minutes.

If the prints can be shown to be at most compatible with AK and others in some substance at some time before Nov.2nd without a pattern that fits committing a murder without a cleanup that can't be shown to have taken place.

The DNA has already been debunked by C&V and if a new independent review agrees it will double debunked. If no new independent review is allowed, that will speak loudly to the world that something is wrong in Denmark Italy.

The defense should make these requests as early as possible even before they can do it in court. Make their defense an open book, no tricks just the truth. They could use that as a talking point.

"The defense requests that the key pieces of alleged evidence be reviewed by impartial outside experts. We are disclosing our strategy at this time as we aren't looking to play tricks or use surprise, we just want the truth to come out."

Amanda should attempt to send a video or letter to court ala Curatolo.

I think that the defendants should have been and should be very circumspect about what they say and how they say it. I don't think either one is good or articulate on the fly nor do I think they are forceful with set pieces.

The greater plan should concentrate its efforts on key pieces and not respond to each and every contention of the PGP. I don't think that during the appeal "railroad job from hell", "they are good kids", "there's no motive" or "there's no evidence" should be used. There is evidence but it's just not of any value in pointing towards the kid's guilt,

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Amanda should attempt to send a video or letter to court ala Curatolo.

I think that the defendants should have been and should be very circumspect about what they say and how they say it. I don't think either one is good or articulate on the fly nor do I think they are forceful with set pieces.

The greater plan should concentrate its efforts on key pieces and not respond to each and every contention of the PGP. I don't think that during the appeal "railroad job from hell", "they are good kids", "there's no motive" or "there's no evidence" should be used. There is evidence but it's just not of any value in pointing towards the kid's guilt,

Remember, 'the power of Amanda's voice is not to be underestimated', as per Amanda herself.

She will not go, I'd bet she would send a tape, but really, what would she put on it?

I think that meeting the two had in New York had something to do with the upcoming appeal, Raff does not want to face it alone and I don't blame him, hopefully some truth will finally come out when he is there alone, we'll see I suppose.

 

[Rolfe]

Are you with Hurtigruten? Sounds really wonderful.

Like I said, you, or someone like you, should give evidence in Florence. An early TOD knocks out Nara and Monachia and forces a pre-9.30 murder (because of Curatolo) and an even more improbable scenario (if that's possible) than Massei's inanity.

No, I was on the Marco Polo, sailing direct from Leith. Only a 40-minute drive from home to the cruise terminal, it's wonderful.

I don't have the standing to give that testimony in court, but there must be dozens of pathologists and gastroenterologists who do. It's a complete no-brainer. I simply cannot understand why this is not universally recognised.

Rolfe.

 

[Grinder]

Remember, 'the power of Amanda's voice is not to be underestimated', as per Amanda herself.

She will not go, I'd bet she would send a tape, but really, what would she put on it?

I think that meeting the two had in New York had something to do with the upcoming appeal, Raff does not want to face it alone and I don't blame him, hopefully some truth will finally come out when he is there alone, we'll see I suppose.

Always good to have Sherlock on the case.

Is it permissible for one that isn't PG to disagree with Amanda's self assessment of her speaking and writing prowess? She isn't good on TV or in court.

She could put a produced clear statement that she had nothing to do with the murder, nothing. She could make it clear that she can only tell the story of what happened to her. She could precisely and concisely describe the interrogation and read from her handwritten submissions to the PLE and explain that she feared going completely back on the signed statements because they had threatened her with dire consequences were she to do so. She could plead for expert reviews because she and Raf were only after the truth, no tricks.

Of course, they discussed the new appeal. Why shouldn't they? I too hope that somehow Rudi is made to answer cross examination and he spills the beans or that he outside of court tells the truth. I would allow for him to get credit for telling all and hope that these new prosecutors actually want to get to the truth and treat this trial as a de novo.

I hope they release the German recordings of Rudi. I hope that they release all recordings of all the interrogations. I hope the police explain what they thought was the truth before Amanda's interrogation and how they had arrived at those assumptions. Since Mignini actually referred to the british tab story on the party ticket and used that against her character I hope the PLE in general and Napoleoni and her crew are exposed for their behavior vis-a-vis her ex husband.

I support you completely in wishing to get to the truth.

 

[anglolawyer]

No, I was on the Marco Polo, sailing direct from Leith. Only a 40-minute drive from home to the cruise terminal, it's wonderful.

I don't have the standing to give that testimony in court, but there must be dozens of pathologists and gastroenterologists who do. It's a complete no-brainer. I simply cannot understand why this is not universally recognised.

Rolfe.

That looks good. There should be a murder on board for you to solve.

I realise the limitations. The point I was making is the same as yours. I have not seen any serious counter-argument to what you and others have said about digestion (the brilliant and learned essay apart). Hopefully, the defences plan to make a big issue out of it.

Another thing that strikes me is that, if money is so tight, why not run one defence with one legal team?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Always good to have Sherlock on the case.

Is it permissible for one that isn't PG to disagree with Amanda's self assessment of her speaking and writing prowess? She isn't good on TV or in court.

She could put a produced clear statement that she had nothing to do with the murder, nothing. She could make it clear that she can only tell the story of what happened to her. She could precisely and concisely describe the interrogation and read from her handwritten submissions to the PLE and explain that she feared going completely back on the signed statements because they had threatened her with dire consequences were she to do so. She could plead for expert reviews because she and Raf were only after the truth, no tricks.

Of course, they discussed the new appeal. Why shouldn't they? I too hope that somehow Rudi is made to answer cross examination and he spills the beans or that he outside of court tells the truth. I would allow for him to get credit for telling all and hope that these new prosecutors actually want to get to the truth and treat this trial as a de novo.

I hope they release the German recordings of Rudi. I hope that they release all recordings of all the interrogations. I hope the police explain what they thought was the truth before Amanda's interrogation and how they had arrived at those assumptions. Since Mignini actually referred to the british tab story on the party ticket and used that against her character I hope the PLE in general and Napoleoni and her crew are exposed for their behavior vis-a-vis her ex husband.

I support you completely in wishing to get to the truth.

Not everyone wants the truth, many think they already have it and are unwilling to change their minds, that's on both sides of the fence.

I don't feel any tape Amanda makes is going to have much to do with anything, the judge may not even allow it saying, if she wanted to be heard, she should have been here. Basically, all Amanda can say is that she is innocent and Meredith was her friend, so nothing new, but I do think she will send a tape regardless.

My only concern is Raff, he is going to feel all alone there and he may very well be the only one to pay the final price, is he willing to do so? Again, we'll see, I'm not saying he's going to throw her under the bus or anything, but he must be aware what's at stake here, that trip to NY had to be something deep that they couldn't discuss over the phone, and big enough that a 26 year old lady had to bring her mom along, tailing them from behind, something fishy there, but what, who knows.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

<snip> that trip to NY had to be something deep that they couldn't discuss over the phone, and big enough that a 26 year old lady had to bring her mom along, tailing them from behind, something fishy there, but what, who knows.

Maybe Amanda and her mother just wanted to see the Big Apple. This type of conjecture is what got them where they are to begin with. People yearn for more of a mystery than the plain old boring truth.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Maybe Amanda and her mother just wanted to see the Big Apple. This type of conjecture is what got them where they are to begin with. People yearn for more of a mystery than the plain old boring truth.

Kind of like why I said 'who knows', don't you think. Maybe Raff was trying to get back with Amanda and her mom went along just to make sure they weren't planning another murder.....who knows, personally I feel it had to be trial related and something he wasn't comfortable talking about on the phone which may be bugged..... again, who knows.

 

[Dan O.]

Sounds great. No norovirus I hope. But seriously, TOD based on digestion ought to feature prominently. Grinder has forgotten the prosecution can also call on the guy who argues in a brilliant and learned article that she had another pizza when she got home.

Is there any evidence that Meredith was bulimic?

 

[Grinder]

Kind of like why I said 'who knows', don't you think. Maybe Raff was trying to get back with Amanda and her mom went along just to make sure they weren't planning another murder.....who knows, personally I feel it had to be trial related and something he wasn't comfortable talking about on the phone which may be bugged..... again, who knows.

Being funny about the planning of another murder? Ha ha.

He currently is in NJ with relatives and I can see why he wouldn't be in Italy where he would know his phone was being tapped.

I imagine Edda was there because if she wasn't we would have flurry of stories, posts and power points about how she was cheating on James, blah blah blah.

You make it sound like there is something wrong with them discussing and coordinating their defenses. Why would that be? Preferring a face to face doesn't seem odd or suspicious at all.

What do you think about asking for independent review of the DNA, TOD and the footprint analysis?

What do you think that Raf could confess that would hurt Amanda? If he in any way was less responsible for whatever you believe their involvement was, why would he have waited until now? Why didn't he come clean in December of 2007?

What "deep" subject do you fantasize he wanted to talk about?

Do you really believe that many people don't want the truth to come out? I do and I think most everybody following this do. You do.

Her video would be as I said earlier. She would state that she had absolutely no involvement and plead for independent reviews that the court would have turned down by the time the video was shown. Rudi's letter should be precedent for statements in court with no cross.

 

[Grinder]

Lalli put it at 2 to 4 hours to reach the duodenum, which puts death between 7:30 and 10 pm - obviously she was alive at nine so it's 9 to 10 by the official coroner that was thrown off the case.

Dr. Lalli also took into consideration the state of digestion. He stated that solids are ingested into the stomach and are not able to reach the pyloric sphincter until they are reduced to a semi-fluid or fluid consistency; the emptying of the stomach then begins to occur when some of the contents have become sufficiently fluid to reach the pylorus, which happens the third or fourth hour after eating. This is when one can find food material at the level of the duodenum (page 63 of the Lalli report). It was also pointed out that a meal consisting of sugar would leave the stomach faster than a meal consisting of proteins which, in turn, are digested faster than a meal of fats. "Therefore, if undigested foods are found during the examination, signifying a more or less accentuated incompleteness of the kimification process, we can deduce that not more than 2 to 4 hours have elapsed since the last meal".

 

[Wildhorses]

Seeing as folks are discussing strategy: If it were up to me, I wouldn't dream of putting Guede or Napoleoni on the stand. They'd lie their heads off and confuse matters. Especially Rudy... no telling what lunacy he'd throw into the mix.

I'd have a couple of Apple Italy's best hardware/software engineers present Raffaele's computer evidence.

I'd have a couple well-respected cell network engineers clarify the provenance of the 10:13 call. It's unlikely -- and perhaps impossible -- the call came from the cottage. That crucial fact got mangled because the police detected a signal using an antenna extension. Let an expert present FACTS about whether a phone without an antenna extension could have connected to the tower from the cottage.

I'd have someone present the stomach data.

And I would take the time to refute not EVERY PGP allegation... but certainly every "misunderstanding" in the SC report. I'd show a PowerPoint presentation of "misunderstandings" followed by clear, simple statements of facts.

Oh, and I'd totally hammer on the sloppy evidence collection.

I can imagine Solecito preferring Amanda not be in court...

 

[Grinder]

Seeing as folks are discussing strategy: If it were up to me, I wouldn't dream of putting Guede or Napoleoni on the stand. They'd lie their heads off and confuse matters. Especially Rudy... no telling what lunacy he'd throw into the mix.

Obviously we disagree. Rudi if subjected to cross would break down. Quizzed on why he said they weren't there in the Skype call but changed his story. His story can't stand the rigors of cross. Going through his story of the left handed man and all just would come off as lies. He won't testify but just asking makes for good press.

Napoleoni can't lie effectively since she wasn't there. She would be exposed for the later messing with the data base etc. What would she say they did on the 6th and 7th in the cottage?

I'd have a couple of Apple Italy's best hardware/software engineers present Raffaele's computer evidence.

If there is exculpatory evidence there, of course.

I'd have a couple well-respected cell network engineers clarify the provenance of the 10:13 call. It's unlikely -- and perhaps impossible -- the call came from the cottage. That crucial fact got mangled because the police detected a signal using an antenna extension. Let an expert present FACTS about whether a phone without an antenna extension could have connected to the tower from the cottage.

Lesser importance and difficult to do now since things probably changed.

And I would take the time to refute not EVERY PGP allegation... but certainly every "misunderstanding" in the SC report. I'd show a PowerPoint presentation of "misunderstandings" followed by clear, simple statements of facts.

Sure, but not the key things to focus on. The message for US consumption needs to be clear and easy to understand. Not too many things for people to absorb. DNA, TOD and footprints are needed for a guilty verdict. They will point out that Q could easily have read about blue eyes month's before he came out of the closet but they don't need an expert.

Oh, and I'd totally hammer on the sloppy evidence collection.

Part of DNA expert's work.

I can imagine Solecito preferring Amanda not be in court...

Me too.

 

[acbytesla]

Remember, 'the power of Amanda's voice is not to be underestimated', as per Amanda herself.

She will not go, I'd bet she would send a tape, but really, what would she put on it?

I think that meeting the two had in New York had something to do with the upcoming appeal, Raff does not want to face it alone and I don't blame him, hopefully some truth will finally come out when he is there alone, we'll see I suppose.

She could testify via teleconference. It is actually done in the US.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Being funny about the planning of another murder? Ha ha.

yes

He currently is in NJ with relatives and I can see why he wouldn't be in Italy where he would know his phone was being tapped.

Agreed, it was tapped before.

I imagine Edda was there because if she wasn't we would have flurry of stories, posts and power points about how she was cheating on James, blah blah blah.

I think now it is you, maybe, being funny.....

You make it sound like there is something wrong with them discussing and coordinating their defenses. Why would that be? Preferring a face to face doesn't seem odd or suspicious at all.

Again, no one knows. I personally think Raff wants her with him in Florence, I think he may have wanted to discuss some things he definitely didn't want police overhearing. What, your guess is as good as mine, but remember, while I don't believe they killed Meredith, I do think they were involved to some degree.

What do you think about asking for independent review of the DNA, TOD and the footprint analysis?

Definitely they have to ask, weather or not it will accepted this time around, I doubt, been there done that. Independent reviews can go either way, that's why prosecutors and defence can always find ones that go their particular ways. TOD review would be great, we probably would get to see why stomach contents shouldn't be used to determine TOD with any great accuracy.

What do you think that Raf could confess that would hurt Amanda? If he in any way was less responsible for whatever you believe their involvement was, why would he have waited until now? Why didn't he come clean in December of 2007?

Didn't you hear, he's her hero, he still is in love. Raff is still involved, almost as much as Amanda, they, and even Rudi are pretty much caught up in their lies, it basically is too late to change stories and try to be believed, again, that ship has sail a very long time ago.

What "deep" subject do you fantasize he wanted to talk about?

I think he wants her in Florence, period.

Do you really believe that many people don't want the truth to come out? I do and I think most everybody following this do. You do.

I don't believe we would know the truth regardless of what was said or done by anyone involved. Certainly the final verdict will not be enough to convince many. Even should Amanda or Raff confess, I doubt many would believe the extent they say, unless they really shock us and again, not going to happen. Forget Rudi, even if he came forward and said they had nothing to do with it, many still wouldn't believe him.

Her video would be as I said earlier. She would state that she had absolutely no involvement and plead for independent reviews that the court would have turned down by the time the video was shown. Rudi's letter should be precedent for statements in court with no cross.

What Rudi letter? I may have missed that one.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

She could testify via teleconference. It is actually done in the US.

Interesting, and possible, but I don't think she will be testifying to anything, she didn't last time, just spontaneous declarations I believe, and I doubt they would set anything up for that.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I would love to see all 3 on the stand, Amanda, Raff and Rudi and all 3 cross examined by defence and prosecution alike. I would love to see the 3 of them alone in a room, bugged and tapped and see what is said between them.