Looking for Skeptics

[asydhouse]

Dear Tracey,

This is usually the part where a member either storms off, often getting banned on purpose, or slowly takes the time to ask questions and proceed toward an understanding of what on earth is really happening.

I am sure that I speak for the skeptics on this site (only this once) when I say we would very much prefer that you take the latter route. Here you can make friends and learn much more about the magnificence of the real world.

A world without real magic, miracles and spirits is not the cold world depicted by charlatans. It is a world full of great discoveries, indescribable beauty and love. It is just as awesome as any fantasy world, except that it’s real.

Life can and will be cruel. Indiscriminately. Some of the good suffer. Some of the bad have a ball. Justice is a human product. This only means our job should be to make it as pleasant for all as we can. All we have is each other.

Fantasies can make the cruel world a more welcoming, caring universe. But is that a good thing? Death sucks. Losing loved ones is an excruciating experience for all. But we move on. We move on with great memories and we move on with a new outlook.

This post may be a bit premature, but I want you to know that I find you very charming and this has been my favourite thread ever. I have appreciated your sense of humour and the way you’ve shown you can take a joke. I hope you will stay and I look forward to discussing with you other interesting topics on different threads.

For me, personally, the world makes a lot more sense since I have shed my beliefs in phenomena that have proven not to exist. I see beauty in art, and indeed in the physical world itself, in a much more glorious light. Because the world is ours. We are a part of this universe as much as the stars are. In fact we are literally made of material that was cooked up in the center of stars.

No fantasy can make it better, warts and all.

[I should leave this sort of rambling to poets, but I had this urge to tell you how I felt.]

Love,

André.

Well said, mate. I just had to slightly correct the one bit I highlighted. I'm sure you will agree my addendum makes it more accurate.

Tracey, you really can just relax and enjoy life. Go ahead.

Love, Syd

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I don't think she's ever said that.

The reason the proposed test protocol which depended on the spirits identifying cards flaccon couldn't see had to be abandoned was that flaccon interpreted noises on her recordings as the spirits telling her that they considered such a test beneath them, not because they could only see what she saw.

flaccon didn't clearly explain whether the spirits couldn't see cards she couldn't see or whether they wouldn't cooperate for some other reason.

I didn't say the spirit couldn't read. They see cards clearly.
I carried out a test earlier, to see if they could see cards that I couldn't see. They didn't even guess. They just said they can't do that sort of trick.

and later:

They see through the eyes of the person they inhibit. They taste everything the person tastes. I don't know about your question, but when they do see the card (through my eyes) they repeat it. Sometimes they might repeat a few times to make sure its heard.

The basic problem, however, is even more fundamental than whether or not the spirits flaccon hears can know anything she doesn't already know. So far, despite remarkable claims of clear sentences and important messages, the only recordings we've heard either contain unintelligible noise or, in the one example which we all agree contains voices, none of us can agree on what they actually say. Even flaccon herself initially wouldn't say what she thinks they say, claiming fear of ridicule, and later appeared unsure if they are even speaking English, despite her conviction that one of the voices is her own.

Now that's a pretty fundamental barrier to these 'spirits' delivering their important message: even if we suspend our disbelief and presume they really are spirit voices, so far there isn't one single scintilla of evidence that anyone can tell what they are saying.

 

[chillzero]

flaccon didn't clearly explain ...

You can stop right there, really. flaccon has never clearly explained anything. She has been given support, encouragement, multiple explanations on how to be clear, and it seems to me that she is refusing. Actively refusing. I feel sad watching so many people spend good time and energy on trying to help, but it really seems to me that the decisions on what to ... overlook ... in the thread have been very telling, as has the consistent need to obfuscate and add little stories with no apparent relevance, and odd sentences that no one can easily parse.

I know how hard and frustrating it can be when you are trying to prove something that doesn't play out as you expect, and the result is that you have to look hard at yourself.

I also have concerns about this thread staying so active, when we are dealing with someone who claims to hear voices where others cannot, who can't follow simple logic, and most worryingly, appears to have become distressed during a call with someone, because she could hear voices on the line that the other could not (my hope is that the voices were simply ambient at her end of the call).

 

[SezMe]

I also have concerns about this thread staying so active, when we are dealing with someone who claims to hear voices where others cannot, who can't follow simple logic, and most worryingly, appears to have become distressed during a call with someone, because she could hear voices on the line that the other could not (my hope is that the voices were simply ambient at her end of the call).

Me too - and well said.

Nothing is going to come out of more file swapping and listening. flaccon's problems go well beyond hearing voices. Please just let her go.

I know. I know.

 

[Pixel42]

Yes, I'm out. I still think it was worth making the effort, but it's clear flaccon is never going to seriously consider that she might be mistaken and actually test that possibility.

 

[Daylightstar]

Me too - and well said.

Nothing is going to come out of more file swapping and listening. flaccon's problems go well beyond hearing voices. Please just let her go.

I know. I know.

I completely agree!
although I felt I should post the file I have been asking for repeatedly, that is where listening to flaccon's files ends for me!

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I also have concerns about this thread staying so active, when we are dealing with someone who claims to hear voices where others cannot, who can't follow simple logic, and most worryingly, appears to have become distressed during a call with someone, because she could hear voices on the line that the other could not (my hope is that the voices were simply ambient at her end of the call).

That's a good point and yes, I am rather worried about it. flaccon said she hadn't intended to mention the phone voices. I'd feel better knowing she had talked to her GP about them.

 

[jsfisher]

I don't think she's ever said that.

The reason the proposed test protocol which depended on the spirits identifying cards flaccon couldn't see had to be abandoned was that flaccon interpreted noises on her recordings as the spirits telling her that they considered such a test beneath them, not because they could only see what she saw.

Well, yes and no. Many of her responses to direct questions are, I won't say evasive, but they have been elusive. While the card identification protocol was being explored then rejected for the reasons you cite, flaccon was asked directly what and how the spirits could see. She eventually came out with this semi-direct statement.

They see through the eyes of the person they inhibit. They taste everything the person tastes. I don't know about your question, but when they do see the card (through my eyes) they repeat it. Sometimes they might repeat a few times to make sure its heard.

Again, elusive, but it has been interpreted and played back to her multiple times as meaning the spirits can only see what she sees. And not once that I recall has she corrected that interpretation.

Still, if not true, she should correct it now. And if not true, then it plays into the spirits can tell her something she does not know, and that would get her to a testable claim and protocol.

But she has been elusive.

ETA: Elusive just isn't the right word. I meant to imply that while flaccon is not trying to be dishonest, her answers are not usually very responsive to the questions put to her. They have to be interpreted and the meaning implied from it and context.

 

[jsfisher]

...
You be the judge.
...

No voices that I hear. Perhaps Caleprime can give us his take on what that noise is.

 

[Floyt]

Original file name:
"8. E.V @ 6 secs -IT'S EVIDENT WE DONT BELONG IN A CIRCUS.wmv"

Attached three zip files: .mp3 clip normal, .mp3 clip amplified, .mp3 clip amplified+slow down.
Each zip file containing applicable sound graph and txt file with hash for the audio file.

After listening to those: if you WANT the phrase to be there, you can make yourself imagine it is, with plenty of special pleading. It could also map to any number of other phrases, or none at all.

This is how auditory pareidolia works. I should know, I can make the air rushing past a car window sing "Bohemian Rhapsody" (which is actually a fun little experiment I recommend to everyone - makes long drives in cars without radio a lot more enjoyable ).

 

[chillzero]

They have to be interpreted and the meaning implied from it and context.

Sounds familiar ...

 

[IXP]

Attached three zip files: .mp3 clip normal, .mp3 clip amplified, .mp3 clip amplified+slow down.

I don't hear any voices. Are you sure you clicked the "Keep Spirit Voices" box on your .WMV to .MP3 converter?

IXP

 

[tuxcat]

What was that infernal racket? I heard no voices - I did hear something like a train braking on slippery rails. The skidding train does seem to squeal "we doooooon't beloooong in a circuuuuu" if you listen to it over and over again. Pareidolia. Textbook case.

 

[tuxcat]

It's evident that this thread has gone on far enough - flaccon is just winding us up. I for one aren't going to waste any more time with this nonsense. 100 pages and all we have is pareidolia and smokescreens.

I advise everyone else to give up - it's a lost cause. She isn't going to listen to us because we don't act as an echo-chamber for her "spirits." When someone dies, that's it. They are dead. Finito. Gone. Kaput. You'll never ever see or hear from them ever again. I know it's hard but the real world isn't all sweets and ice cream. The sooner you accept that the world is a cruel place, the easier your life will become. Once you die your body is either destroyed by bacteria and other icky organisms and re-entered into the food chain or completely decimated by an intense fire and vapourised to re-enter the carbon and water cycle.

 

[IXP]

flaccon,

Do the voices on "We don't belong in a circus" sound as much like voices to you as the ones on "flaccon_1"?

If not, how do you account for the fact that, on that one file only, there are sounds that clearly sound like voices rather than noise?

Also, how do you account for the fact that on "flaccon_1" you cannot understand what they are saying, whereas on "We don't belong in a circus" you can?

IXP

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

Well said, mate. I just had to slightly correct the one bit I highlighted. I'm sure you will agree my addendum makes it more accurate.

Tracey, you really can just relax and enjoy life. Go ahead.

Love, Syd

I don't necessarily agree, though I see what you're saying. I can easily contend that all "good" people suffer and all "bad" people have a ball. Just not all of the time. Perhaps a more accurate correction would be to add "at times" or "some of the time", or something along those lines... ☻☺☻

 

[Cassidy]

I don't necessarily agree, though I see what you're saying. I can easily contend that all "good" people suffer and all "bad" people have a ball. Just not all of the time. Perhaps a more accurate correction would be to add "at times" or "some of the time", or something along those lines... ☻☺☻

To Maurice, I had replied to your post last night but I was timed out and lost the lot. Your words were very endearing, and probably only the second post of yours that I've read twice. It does seem that Psychology has everything covered, and I do have no alternative but to bow down to Paredolia, delusion, mass hallucination, despite the reports of the spirits latest ability.

Despite the checksum to the "VolNormInt" file, js did report a "constant" rain & fan noise. When Mr Roberts played me a copy of the file over the phone, it had a steady flow right the way through, as did Alderbanks file. There were no interfernces whatsoever. I finally managed to retrieve the copy that js sent to me via email, and on playback there was significant differences to the file that Mr Roberts had played me. I asked Mr Roberts to check the copy he had, and that too had altered in the same manner. Js then uploaded "VolNormInt" to Box.com, containing the same significant differences. The checksum does not alter if the files are identical, I understand this, and yes the files are identical, but originally there was no interferences on the original, nor the copy of the original that Mr Roberts played to me via land line. Alderbanks upload was identical to what Mr Roberts played me via land line. Jsfishers had significant differences. Wouldn't you say that it is worthy to test this under a more observing eye? It is actually nothing to lose against everything to gain. Like I keep suggesting, if we stop concentrating on voices and images, we can immediately rule out paredolia.

Please look at the full world around you. Don't just pick out the beauty simply because we are still fortunate enough to do so, despite its contamination. Must I be grateful for that? Whats round the corner for us at this rate is anyones guess. Creating oneself a bubble, theorising, assuming or ticking boxes that other men create, only provides a tempory solution to the grander scale of things to come. Life could be better for everyone. I don't claim to have the solution to that, but the spirits do. So my personal experiences aside, despite the ridicule, and at the risk of losing everything that I hold dear to me, I do see something that just might work, and if I don't try, I'll not forgive myself. However if I try and fail, at least I tried.

My grief at the loss of my parents. I dealt with the feelings of shock, blame, anger, sorrow, reclusion. Accepting they don't exist any more, is not possible considering my understanding of the spirit world. I can only accept that they entered into it. After 3 years and no sign of contact despite my attempts, I accepted that they had moved on, this enabled me to do the same thing.

Thank you for the more formal introduction Andre, and I shall look forward to chewing the cud with you and others in future threads. I'm always keen to learn the things I don't know.

 

[desertgal]

<snipped for relevancy> Like I keep suggesting, if we stop concentrating on voices and images, we can immediately rule out paredolia.

No. We can't.

Please look at the full world around you.

Most of us do. Who are you to suggest we don't?

Don't just pick out the beauty simply because we are still fortunate enough to do so, despite its contamination.

That isn't even coherent. Should we pick out the contamination instead?

Must I be grateful for that?

I rather hope most people are grateful for the beauty of life and nature, but you're not required to be, no.

Whats round the corner for us at this rate is anyones guess.

In terms of an afterlife? No. Dead is dead.

Creating oneself a bubble, theorising, assuming or ticking boxes that other men create, only provides a tempory solution to the grander scale of things to come. Life could be better for everyone. I don't claim to have the solution to that, but the spirits do. So my personal experiences aside, despite the ridicule, and at the risk of losing everything that I hold dear to me, I do see something that just might work, and if I don't try, I'll not forgive myself. However if I try and fail, at least I tried.

My grief at the loss of my parents. I dealt with the feelings of shock, blame, anger, sorrow, reclusion. Accepting they don't exist any more, is not possible considering my understanding of the spirit world. I can only accept that they entered into it. After 3 years and no sign of contact despite my attempts, I accepted that they had moved on, this enabled me to do the same thing.

And there you have it, folks. Proof that this entire thread has been and will be an exercise in futility.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Despite the checksum to the "VolNormInt" file, js did report a "constant" rain & fan noise. When Mr Roberts played me a copy of the file over the phone, it had a steady flow right the way through, as did Alderbanks file. There were no interfernces whatsoever. I finally managed to retrieve the copy that js sent to me via email, and on playback there was significant differences to the file that Mr Roberts had played me. I asked Mr Roberts to check the copy he had, and that too had altered in the same manner. Js then uploaded "VolNormInt" to Box.com, containing the same significant differences. The checksum does not alter if the files are identical, I understand this, and yes the files are identical, but originally there was no interferences on the original, nor the copy of the original that Mr Roberts played to me via land line. Alderbanks upload was identical to what Mr Roberts played me via land line. Jsfishers had significant differences.

The simplest explanation is that Mr Roberts played you the wrong file over the phone. If he clicked on "VolumeUpInt" instead of "VolumeNormInt" then that explains why the noise level sounded constant.

You don't know what jsfisher's original "VolumeNormInt" file sounded like before you received it, you're just guessing and assuming that it had a constant noise level. We do know that jsfisher posted the checksum here before sending the file, so we have solid evidence that the file never changed at all.

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

To Maurice, I had replied to your post last night but I was timed out and lost the lot. Your words were very endearing, and probably only the second post of yours that I've read twice. It does seem that Psychology has everything covered, and I do have no alternative but to bow down to Paredolia, delusion, mass hallucination, despite the reports of the spirits latest ability.

Despite the checksum to the "VolNormInt" file, js did report a "constant" rain & fan noise. When Mr Roberts played me a copy of the file over the phone, it had a steady flow right the way through, as did Alderbanks file. There were no interfernces whatsoever. I finally managed to retrieve the copy that js sent to me via email, and on playback there was significant differences to the file that Mr Roberts had played me. I asked Mr Roberts to check the copy he had, and that too had altered in the same manner. Js then uploaded "VolNormInt" to Box.com, containing the same significant differences. The checksum does not alter if the files are identical, I understand this, and yes the files are identical, but originally there was no interferences on the original, nor the copy of the original that Mr Roberts played to me via land line. Alderbanks upload was identical to what Mr Roberts played me via land line. Jsfishers had significant differences. Wouldn't you say that it is worthy to test this under a more observing eye? It is actually nothing to lose against everything to gain. Like I keep suggesting, if we stop concentrating on voices and images, we can immediately rule out paredolia.

Please look at the full world around you. Don't just pick out the beauty simply because we are still fortunate enough to do so, despite its contamination. Must I be grateful for that? Whats round the corner for us at this rate is anyones guess. Creating oneself a bubble, theorising, assuming or ticking boxes that other men create, only provides a tempory solution to the grander scale of things to come. Life could be better for everyone. I don't claim to have the solution to that, but the spirits do. So my personal experiences aside, despite the ridicule, and at the risk of losing everything that I hold dear to me, I do see something that just might work, and if I don't try, I'll not forgive myself. However if I try and fail, at least I tried.

My grief at the loss of my parents. I dealt with the feelings of shock, blame, anger, sorrow, reclusion. Accepting they don't exist any more, is not possible considering my understanding of the spirit world. I can only accept that they entered into it. After 3 years and no sign of contact despite my attempts, I accepted that they had moved on, this enabled me to do the same thing.

Thank you for the more formal introduction Andre, and I shall look forward to chewing the cud with you and others in future threads. I'm always keen to learn the things I don't know.

Than you for the reply. I'm perfectly fine with you thinking there is a spirit world. I'm fine with you trying to build an Edison apparatus to try and communicate with them. All the objective evidence in the world points toward no spirit world, but it is fine to experiment.

The problem is that the results of your experiments so far are subjective. They are based on interpretation. Human interpretation is notoriously faulty. In everyone.

There has been a sufficient exchange of information and evidence to conclude that the spirit world is not trying to communicate through electronics. It sucks, but that's the way things are.

You are correct. Life could and should be better for everyone. We don't need spirits to tell us. We know this because the facts agree with this statement. Just because we are mere mortals in a world filled with mystery doesn't mean we can't fix our problem ourselves.

What if there really were spirits, and they had a message saying we are on the wrong track, that we should stop killing each other and make sure every one is fed and has access to equal opportunities? This is nothing new. We know this. All we can really do is learn how the world really works and apply this knowledge to our solution efforts.

Believing in the supernatural, based on anyone's testimony, however credible, is not going to help us take care of each other. The decision to help find solutions to human problems is sometimes borne of a religious belief, but it is a personal decision and it is made by a human.

The best way to feed a hungry person is to learn how food grows, grow it, and then make sure the person has access to it. Prayer, meditation, praise and worship are crutches. They actually take precious time and resources better spent applying true solutions.

I'd like to add that some of us, myself included, have been rather abrasive, or have used ridicule, at times, but it should be noted that most believers on this site are treated much more harshly, rather swiftly.

I stubbornly look forward to the future, where you might help another claimant come to terms with the way the world works, drawing on your experience. ☻☺☻