Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Dan O.]

Randy, Tesla please acknowledge there was an inventory

Nov 16, 2007 video from Raffaele's apartment

14:26:51 - First of two bleach bottles discovered under sink
14:28:54 - Showing price sticker on second bottle from CONAD store(1.43?)
15:07:09 - Receipt for pizzas dated 04-11-2007 17:27 (13.00)
15:16:45 - Harry Potter book on bed stand
15:25:07 - Begin searching drawer of used grocery bags
15:27:43 - Receipt dated 21-03-2007 17-48 "ALIMENTARI" "Quintairlle" (8.70)
15:28:18 - Receipt dated 17-03-2007 18:26, 2 items (6.15)
15:31:40 - Another receipt (date not seen under Mignini's thumb)
15:32:38 - Drawer is now empty
15:32:47 - Receipt dated 19/05/2007 17-28 three items (4.52, 1.25, 1.50)
15:33:32 - Receipt dated 21-03-2007 17-48 (8.70), showing CONAD bag
15:33:57 - Showing CONAD bag in drawer
15:37:08 - possible inventory of apartment

 

[Dan O.]

So your point is what?

It is presumed to be an official document. That is about all we can do unless there is an inconsistency that substantiates a challenge to that documents authenticity. Records can be checked on both sides so it would be foolish for there to be attempts at forgery.

 

[anglolawyer]

It is presumed to be an official document. That is about all we can do unless there is an inconsistency that substantiates a challenge to that documents authenticity. Records can be checked on both sides so it would be foolish for there to be attempts at forgery.

Sorry, I was just kidding. Will use smiley next time.

 

[acbytesla]

Randy, Tesla please acknowledge there was an inventory

With all due respect Grinder, I still have my suspicions that there really wasn't an actual "inventory" of these items. Having said that, I doubt it would ever got that far. Raffaele has his flick knives and I really do doubt that the Police would or did think any kitchen knives were involved.

Second, I think Randy was just joking about throwing it in "old Lake Narducci",

 

[Grinder]

With all due respect Grinder, I still have my suspicions that there really wasn't an actual "inventory" of these items. Having said that, I doubt it would ever got that far. Raffaele has his flick knives and I really do doubt that the Police would or did think any kitchen knives were involved.

Second, I think Randy was just joking about throwing it in "old Lake Narducci",

Okay there is as I said a capture from a video with the inventory on it and Hellmann references it. But if you have suspicions then by all means we shouldn't be able to agree that there was in fact an inventory of the apartment's furnished items.

Maybe he was joking and can respond himself but why not deal where they were going to dispose of the knife between midnight and 8 in the morning? It's not easy to get rid of stuff secretly that isn't easy to find.

This has nothing to do with what the police really thought about the kitchen knife. It is about whether it is reasonable under the circumstances that they kept and cleaned the knife and I say, absolutely.

The argument that it couldn't be the knife because they would have ditched it is otiose.

 

[acbytesla]

Okay there is as I said a capture from a video with the inventory on it and Hellmann references it. But if you have suspicions then by all means we shouldn't be able to agree that there was in fact an inventory of the apartment's furnished items.

Maybe he was joking and can respond himself but why not deal where they were going to dispose of the knife between midnight and 8 in the morning? It's not easy to get rid of stuff secretly that isn't easy to find.

This has nothing to do with what the police really thought about the kitchen knife. It is about whether it is reasonable under the circumstances that they kept and cleaned the knife and I say, absolutely.

The argument that it couldn't be the knife because they would have ditched it is otiose.

I should drink a beer every time someone sneaks that word into the discussion.

Maybe he was joking? Grinder, have you lost your sense of humor?...... Did you ever have one??

They weren't thinking about what to do with that knife. This all just a hypothetical. The knife, the allegation and our discussion about the knife is a joke. We're humoring ourselves and that's ok. I'm all in favor of a good laugh.

The knife wasn't the murder weapon. It couldn't have been the murder weapon. Another knife killed Meredith and there wasn't multiple knives involved. The only way there could have been multiple knives is if we are equating Raffaele and Amanda to the Manson family and the act was total deliberation and both Amanda and Raffaele are both total psychopaths.

Excuse me, how do I get off this ride? I jumped on the crazy train and I can't get off. Mach is certifiable, but I'm beginning to think Italy is certifiable. A land where logic and reasoning was abandoned some time ago. Maybe the Renaissance?

 

[yimyammer]

I think some people are arguing that, but it really isn't believable. Who really keeps track of every piece of cutlery?

As a landlord myself, I can see myself doing this so I can deduct the cost of anything missing or broken before I wrote a check to return a deposit, so I think this is a very reasonable thing to do

 

[Grinder]

I should drink a beer every time someone sneaks that word into the discussion.

I here I thought you already were.

Maybe he was joking? Grinder, have you lost your sense of humor?...... Did you ever have one??

I just didn't think it was funny so I hoped it wasn't an attempt at humor.

They weren't thinking about what to do with that knife. This all just a hypothetical. The knife, the allegation and our discussion about the knife is a joke. We're humoring ourselves and that's ok. I'm all in favor of a good laugh.

The assertion that returning the knife to it's place is not believable is the joke. Further it is bad tactics to make statements that don't hold up. I have said a thousand times over the 6 years that the knife evidence is bunk But making an assertion that no one would return it to the drawer weakens the point because it's not true. There is no easy place to dispose of it and just imagine the police finding it even if clean.

The knife wasn't the murder weapon. It couldn't have been the murder weapon. Another knife killed Meredith and there wasn't multiple knives involved. The only way there could have been multiple knives is if we are equating Raffaele and Amanda to the Manson family and the act was total deliberation and both Amanda and Raffaele are both total psychopaths.

No, it wouldn't be equating them to the Manson family, more hyperbole. You really think that it is impossible to have been the murder weapon? Impossible?

 

[acbytesla]

As a landlord myself, I can see myself doing this so I can deduct the cost of anything missing or broken before I wrote a check to return a deposit, so I think this is a very reasonable thing to do

OK. I guess the question is how long had Raffaele lived in that apartment? Being furnished is a little strange, since every place I've ever lived in wasn't. My guess is that if Raffaele hadn't kept his inventory sheet of the apartment (duplicate of the one that landlord might have in their possession), the police wouldn't have checked with the landlord about his cutlery. This is a red herring, remember the police didn't check ANY of the cutlery in the cottage!!!! Look at the DNA report of the knives tested. this is the only "kitchen" knife that was tested for DNA.

 

[Dan O.]

They weren't thinking about what to do with that knife. This all just a hypothetical. The knife, the allegation and our discussion about the knife is a joke. We're humoring ourselves and that's ok. I'm all in favor of a good laugh.

The fact that we are discussing is that the prosecution presented this knife as the murder weapon. The question we are trying to answer is: What could they (the prosecution) possibly have been thinking and how did Massei and the ISC buy it.

You really think that it is impossible to have been the murder weapon? Impossible?

Impossible.


2007-11-05: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...t-meredith-s-killer-at-party-115875-20061907/

Murdered student Meredith Kercher could have met her killer at a masked Halloween party the night before, Italian police believe.
Police believe she was stabbed with a penknife sometime after 10pm.​

 

[acbytesla]

I here I thought you already were.

If only... Barkeep!!!!

I just didn't think it was funny so I hoped it wasn't an attempt at humor.

Nope, it's official, you've lost your sense of humor. I thought it was very funny.

The assertion that returning the knife to it's place is not believable is the joke. Further it is bad tactics to make statements that don't hold up. I have said a thousand times over the 6 years that the knife evidence is bunk But making an assertion that no one would return it to the drawer weakens the point because it's not true. There is no easy place to dispose of it and just imagine the police finding it even if clean.

No the knife is a joke, so everything that leads from the knife is a a joke.

No, it wouldn't be equating them to the Manson family, more hyperbole. You really think that it is impossible to have been the murder weapon? Impossible?

Absolutely!!! 100% couldn't have been the murder weapon. While it couldn't be eliminated from making some of the wounds, it absolutely can be eliminated from making many of the wounds. It doesn't match the bloody stain on the duvet/sheet. Not to mention the absurdity of Amanda carrying it.

I see only ONE reason that Amanda would have been carrying that knife. And that would be for a deliberate premeditated act of violence. It wouldn't have been for "protection", And since there were knives at the cottage, it wouldn't have been for "cooking" and it wouldn't have been to play some kind of prank on Meredith.

So no, I don't think equating it to the Manson family is total hyperbole. I think one of the girls were carrying kitchen knives during the Tate murders.
(OK, maybe a little hyperbole.. )

My point is we are discussing it because it's an element in the Prosecution's case. That it is such an element though, is a joke.

 

[Grinder]

OK. I guess the question is how long had Raffaele lived in that apartment? Being furnished is a little strange, since every place I've ever lived in wasn't. My guess is that if Raffaele hadn't kept his inventory sheet of the apartment (duplicate of the one that landlord might have in their possession), the police wouldn't have checked with the landlord about his cutlery. This is a red herring, remember the police didn't check ANY of the cutlery in the cottage!!!! Look at the DNA report of the knives tested. this is the only "kitchen" knife that was tested for DNA.

IIRC they found the list in his apartment when they went through it and videoed.

You really seem to have a hard time understanding the issue. The issue is would someone that murdered someone return the knife to the apartment it came from? Not would the police do this or that?

Had the kids used the knife, the inventory could have crossed Raf's mind and he might have added that to the list of reasons why the best plan was to take it back to the flat.

The police did check the cutlery in the cottage. Don't you remember Amanda having the anxiety attack?

Since we all agree that the kitchen knife at best could have caused one of the wounds perhaps they only took this one because it was on top or looked clean to them, whatever.

The narrow issue at hand is would someone take the knife back to the flat and I say yes best plan. Keep control, clean it well and then put it back like it had never left.

You say toss it somewhere and I say where and when.

 

[Grinder]

The fact that we are discussing is that the prosecution presented this knife as the murder weapon. The question we are trying to answer is: What could they (the prosecution) possibly have been thinking and how did Massei and the ISC buy it.

Go back and you will see that this discussion was about them taking the knife back to the flat. impossible.


2007-11-05: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...t-meredith-s-killer-at-party-115875-20061907/

Murdered student Meredith Kercher could have met her killer at a masked Halloween party the night before, Italian police believe.
Police believe she was stabbed with a penknife sometime after 10pm.​

Yes I've used that article many a time.

I don't believe the knife evidence, but not because no one in their shoes would take it back. I disagree with Tesla and Hellmann and anybody else that makes that a center-point of why it isn't the knife.

If the knife matched the outline and the majority or all of the wounds and had Meredith's blood on it, would anybody argue that it couldn't be the murder weapon because no one would take it back to the apartment? Of course not, therefore the assertion holds no weight, is otiose bunk.

 

[acbytesla]

IIRC they found the list in his apartment when they went through it and videoed.

You really seem to have a hard time understanding the issue. The issue is would someone that murdered someone return the knife to the apartment it came from? Not would the police do this or that?

Had the kids used the knife, the inventory could have crossed Raf's mind and he might have added that to the list of reasons why the best plan was to take it back to the flat.

The police did check the cutlery in the cottage. Don't you remember Amanda having the anxiety attack?

Since we all agree that the kitchen knife at best could have caused one of the wounds perhaps they only took this one because it was on top or looked clean to them, whatever.

The narrow issue at hand is would someone take the knife back to the flat and I say yes best plan. Keep control, clean it well and then put it back like it had never left.

You say toss it somewhere and I say where and when.

I'm not as obtuse as you are making me out to be. I fully understand the issue.

The police found an "inventory" of the items in the house which I guess "included" this kitchen knife. My point is that they could have tossed the knife and destroyed the inventory. If they don't find the inventory or the knife are they really going to ask the landlord for an inventory of the items in the house looking for a knife? Rudy has knives, the kitchen in the cottage has knives. If they throw away the knives, do you think Raffaele wouldn't have thrown away the inventory as well? Are they really going to be looking for a document at the landlord for an inventory of the cutlery? I don't buy it.

And no, I don't remember Amanda having an anxiety attack. You say they checked the knives at the cottage. They are NOT on my list of the items tested for DNA. Are they on yours??

 

[Grinder]

I'm not as obtuse as you are making me out to be. I fully understand the issue.

The police found an "inventory" of the items in the house which I guess "included" this kitchen knife. My point is that they could have tossed the knife and destroyed the inventory. If they don't find the inventory or the knife are they really going to ask the landlord for an inventory of the items in the house looking for a knife? Rudy has knives, the kitchen in the cottage has knives. If they throw away the knives, do you think Raffaele wouldn't have thrown away the inventory as well? Are they really going to be looking for a document at the landlord for an inventory of the cutlery? I don't buy it.

And now I don't remember Amanda having an anxiety attack. You say they checked the knives at the cottage. They are NOT on my list of the items tested for DNA. Are they on yours??

I don't have a list of items tested - give the cite and I'll look. Earlier you weren't buying an inventory. Mach is it the law that the inventory must be kept in the flat?

No you don't get it. It has nothing to do with the police actually finding the list. The inventory is just a potential element in their thinking. You now admit there was an inventory that just a short time ago you mocked, tiny steps. Although it isn't a necessary point, given that inventories are common in Italy the police might well have checked for a missing knife. Why not?

If you think that the assertion that they wouldn't bring a knife used in murder back is convincing, what rational argument is left.

As I said above, if the all the evidence was consistent that it was the knife, the assertion that that couldn't be because no one would return it, would be funnier than a video of the ICSI collecting evidence.

ETA - The following day, 4 November, the Italian flatmates and Knox were summoned for further questioning. In the early evening they were taken to the upstairs flat to help ascertain if any knives were missing. While Mignini was showing them knives in the flat, Knox broke down crying and shook so severely that a doctor became concerned for her; she was made to rest on a couch. When she failed to recover, Knox was taken outside by Napoleoni to sit in a car.[67][74] Knox was questioned for 50 hours over the four days following the murder. She was officially being interviewed as a witness rather than a suspect: this allowed interrogations without the safeguards normal in Italy such as the presence of a lawyer and recording of interviews.[75

You see how clever returning the knife would be - they just looked for missing ones - and it says help because of course they had an inventory

 

[Dan O.]

From the Crime Scene Video (16 11 2007/15:39:23)
(partially transcribed)

ELENCO MOBILI ED OGGETTI PRESENTI NELL'APPARTAMENTO SITO
PERUGIA, CORSO GARIBALDI N.110 PIANO TERRA

CUCINA:
- Caldaia metano a muro
- cucina in legno seuro metri lineari 2,55 con elettrodomestici ...
- Tavolo legno
- N.2 sedie legno
- N.1 mobiletto a due ante con portabottiglie di legno scuro
...
- n.6 forchette acciaio
- n.6 cucchiai acciaio
- n.6 cucchiaini acciaio
- n.6 coltelli manico plastica blu
- n.1 scolapasta plastica
- n.1 poggiapentole plastica
- n.1 posacenere plastica
- n.2 pentole con coperchio acciaio cm. 18 e cm 20
- 1 tagliere legno
- n.2 coltelli grandi
- secchino immondizia
- 1 secchio pulizie
- 1 scopa
​

Google translation

LIST OF FURNITURE AND THESE ITEMS IN THE APARTMENT SITE
PERUGIA, CORSO GARIBALDI N.110 GROUND FLOOR

KITCHEN:
- Gas boiler wall
- Wooden kitchen Seuro 2.55 linear meters with appliances ...
- Wooden table
- No. 2 wooden chairs
- Ranked # 1 cabinet with two doors and bottle of dark wood
...
- 6 stainless forks
- 6 tablespoons steel
- 6 teaspoons steel
- 6 blue plastic handle knives
- 1 plastic colander
- 1 plastic trivet
- 1 plastic ashtray- 2 cm steel pots with lids. 18 cm and 20
- 1 wooden cutting board
- 2 large knives
- Drying garbage
- 1 bucket cleaning
- 1 broom​

 

[acbytesla]

I don't have a list of items tested - give the cite and I'll look. Earlier you weren't buying an inventory. Mach is it the law that the inventory must be kept in the flat?

No you don't get it. It has nothing to do with the police actually finding the list. The inventory is just a potential element in their thinking. You now admit there was an inventory that just a short time ago you mocked, tiny steps. Although it isn't a necessary point, given that inventories are common in Italy the police might well have checked for a missing knife. Why not?

If you think that the assertion that they wouldn't bring a knife used in murder back is convincing, what rational argument is left.

As I said above, if the all the evidence was consistent that it was the knife, the assertion that that couldn't be because no one would return it, would be funnier than a video of the ICSI collecting evidence.

ETA - The following day, 4 November, the Italian flatmates and Knox were summoned for further questioning. In the early evening they were taken to the upstairs flat to help ascertain if any knives were missing. While Mignini was showing them knives in the flat, Knox broke down crying and shook so severely that a doctor became concerned for her; she was made to rest on a couch. When she failed to recover, Knox was taken outside by Napoleoni to sit in a car.[67][74] Knox was questioned for 50 hours over the four days following the murder. She was officially being interviewed as a witness rather than a suspect: this allowed interrogations without the safeguards normal in Italy such as the presence of a lawyer and recording of interviews.[75

You see how clever returning the knife would be - they just looked for missing ones - and it says help because of course they had an inventory

First, Dan pointed out "the inventory" I accepted that.even thought it was strange.

We clearly are talking past each other Grinder. They were looking for missing knives at the cottage, not the flat. They are asking "the roommates" at the cottage. That makes all the sense in the world. If a knife is missing at the cottage, there is a good chance that is the murder weapon. The same cannot be said about the flat. Also, if there is no inventory at the flat, I don't see them doing anything, but making a cursory glance through the drawer

*BTW Thanks for the cite on the Amanda breaking down and crying.

My list of what was tested comes from IIP. DNA_Test_ Results.PDF It is a photocopied document so I can't cut and paste from it. It lists the items one by one. The list is quite long and it's in Italian. The word for knife is coltello. It is there on Item 36: Grosso coltello lungo complessivamente 31cm con lama lunga 17cm e manico di colore nero. I can't see the word coltello anywhere else, but it is possible that I overlooked it while searching for another mention of coltello. You're welcome to look yourself.

No, there are two more, Items 33 and 35. Raffaele's pen knives.

 

[acbytesla]

Delete

 

[Dan O.]

Try pocketknife (temperino).

They collected two pocketknives from Raffaele and tested them with negative results. As I posted earlier, they were already telling the press that they thought the murder weapon was a pocketknife BEFORE raffaele was called in on the 5th. I believe this was priming the press with their superior crime scene analysis skills and they already knew they were going to be arresting Raffaele that night. It turns out that they learned Raffaele carried a pocket knife from a bugged conversation he had with his dad.

Funny thing those recordings. They were already recording all of Raffaele's phone calls but they didn't have the budget to record the interrogations in their own building.

How do you spell corrupt in Italian?

 

[acbytesla]

Try pocketknife (temperino).

They collected two pocketknives from Raffaele and tested them with negative results. As I posted earlier, they were already telling the press that they thought the murder weapon was a pocketknife BEFORE raffaele was called in on the 5th. I believe this was priming the press with their superior crime scene analysis skills and they already knew they were going to be arresting Raffaele that night. It turns out that they learned Raffaele carried a pocket knife from a bugged conversation he had with his dad.

Funny thing those recordings. They were already recording all of Raffaele's phone calls but they didn't have the budget to record the interrogations in their own building.

How do you spell corrupt in Italian?

My mistake, there are two pen knives both "coltello" Items 33 and 35 and the
and the kitchen knife is 36. There are pictures of all three knives later in the document.

No for temperino.