Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Dan O.]

So I guess you would want to put the knife in an oven drying it out as much as possible and then quickly putting it in bleach and the same capillary action would suck the bleach in to the crack and that would destroy the DNA???

As I said, that won't be 100% effective.

I would want to put the knife in a blast furnace that would burn off the handle and melt the blade into an unrecognizable puddle.

I am reminded of a short story murder mystery that came out shortly after the advent of memory plastics. The victim was stabbed with a sharp instrument like a knife. The detective found a pot of hot water on the stove. The water contained traces of the victim's blood and in the bottom of the pot there was a plastic ashtray.

 

[anglolawyer]

As I said, that won't be 100% effective.

I would want to put the knife in a blast furnace that would burn off the handle and melt the blade into an unrecognizable puddle.

I am reminded of a short story murder mystery that came out shortly after the advent of memory plastics. The victim was stabbed with a sharp instrument like a knife. The detective found a pot of hot water on the stove. The water contained traces of the victim's blood and in the bottom of the pot there was a plastic ashtray.

Don't you think it would have looked a little suspicious if they had showed up at a blast furnace and asked if they could have the knife melted? I agree with Grinder about the difficulties of disposal and I disagree with everybody (including Hellman) who thinks it ridiculously improbable they would return to using the knife for slicing bread.

Plus, I am going to disagree with everything you say hereafter, on principle, until you identify that fingerprint for me Don't make me do it Dan.

 

[MDDVS]

and to a seasoned burglar like Rudy, the shutters being noticed to be unlatched might be inviting.

its actually very common I was told by a city cop, that the person who burglarized your home was probably there as a friends friend, like Rudy became invited to the cottage. Often its a hired hand who scopes your place out.

Rudy wasn't close with anyone in the cottage, a fairly new acquaintance. They invited him to their home unknowing he was spending his days burglarizing places.

still I wish someone could pull up various second story, window, break-ins and put this to rest. this might be a main focus this coming trial, this mystery of Filomenas room.

There was a guy here who was burglarising 4th and 5th storeys, so I know it's possible, but I haven't managed to find it this in the Internet yet. He was nicknamed Rambo.

 

[Dan O.]

They could say, "Oh, we broke it trying to cut a frozen steak. We'll pay for a new one." Or they could buy another one just like it. IIUC it was a common, cheap knife.

Of course, that's assuming you didn't think ahead and actually took a knife from your own kitchen (does anyone remember the logical reason that was given for why Raffaele's kitchen knife was at the cottage?).

Amanda already had a sealed package of knives that she brought from Germany. If they needed to get rid of Raffaele's house knife they could have just chucked it after wiping it down to remove their own prints and DNA from the surface. Put the German set in Raffaele's kitchen. The story would be that Amanda gave Raffaele the set that she didn't need when she saw him preparing food with his flick knife that he carries. And Raffaele would say he had broken the cheep house knife month's ago and intended to replace it with a proper knife the next time he was in a town with a decent cutlery store. But these stories would be reserved for the eventuality that the investigators ever asked about the knives. There is no link that would give investigators reason to ask unless Amanda had told the roommates that she had brought the knives.

The big question is. After going through this elaborate exchange of the knives, what do you do when the prosecution finds Meredith's DNA on the blade of the German knife that was securely sealed in plastic at the time she was murdered and wasn't unpacked until after A&R had cleaned themselves.

 

[MDDVS]

There was a guy here who was burglarising 4th and 5th storeys, so I know it's possible, but I haven't managed to find it this in the Internet yet. He was nicknamed Rambo.

While trying to find it I discovered loads of cases where burglars climb up to the 6th floor, but I think this one for example is quite close to what we are discussing.

"Burglar scales apartment (second floor) window and stabs resident"

http://www.campomaioremfoco.com.br/policia/1812-assaltante-escala-janela-de-apartamento-e-esfaqueia-morador.html

And like this you have loads and loads just in Brasil and Portugal, didn't check other countries.

 

[Grinder]

Here's a question: given the case was that Lumumba killed her, why didn't they lift a knife from his place? And secondly, given the overall crime theory as of 06 Nov, why did they suppose Amanda took that knife with her when letting Lumumba in?

Nice work. This is up to the standards of Shergrinder .

 

[Chris_Halkides]

fingerprint map at IIP

Here's a question: given the case was that Lumumba killed her, why didn't they lift a knife from his place? And secondly, given the overall crime theory as of 06 Nov, why did they suppose Amanda took that knife with her when letting Lumumba in?

That's a good question. What's the answer? Here is a map of fingerprints.

 

[Grinder]

Inventory shimnintory....that is a nothing but a guilter guess. But I would be very pleased to see a copy of this inventory. Certainly it must be available in the public record. Some sure footed reporter would be right on top of that.

Two things ....

1.There was no inventory

2.This was a cheap easily replaceable common knife...a few Euros at most. Or do you suppose it had a serial number that had to match? DOH.

ETA Three things...

3. To get rid of the knife drive out to Lake Narducci and whip it somewheres around where they found Narducci floating in his too small pants....or drop it down a street drain like Hal did in the Kish case...even after someone telling the police they saw that...no one ever bothered to actually look. Put it in a box and mail it to some random person in Rome...

IIRC Rose has provided the inventory in the past from a video capture I think.

Going out after killing somebody with a knife to buy a knife would be just a tad suspicious and then they wouldn't need to find evidence.

No, the best way to go would be clean the knife and give it a bleach bath.

Capillary action wouldn't cross their minds so they wouldn't worry about Dan's theory even if 100% true. The handle is fused to the knife and past capillary action would have filled the knife already and in time with hardened gunk.

Maybe they will open the knife this time and if Dan's assertion on how this knife works can be demonstrated and Grinder is wrong that would be solid evidence if absent blood.

 

[anglolawyer]

That's a good question. What's the answer? Here is a map of fingerprints.

I must be colour blind. I counted 5 of Amanda or non-attributed (which?) and 1 of Meredith or Filomena (which?) in Amanda's room.

 

[Grinder]

Good old Grinder gives proof that argues against his own point. Won't find this over at old ,org etc.

This Court finds that it cannot accept the arguments of the Public Minister explaining why they did not get rid of the knife: that is because it was in the inventory made when the flat was rented and also to save the few euros needed to replace it.

The absence of an inventoried knife would have certainly constituted a much smaller risk than having the murder weapon seized in the house, while the expense of a few euros, in view of such a need as preventing the finding of the murder weapon, would clearly have been a trivial price, not even worth considering.

It is therefore the truth that the only evidence that could reasonably connect the knife to the murder committed at the house on Via Della Pergola is represented by the results of the genetic investigations performed by the Scientific Police — which, however, we will shortly find to be unreliable.

I disagree with Hellmann that going out within days of the murder and buying a knife that was now missing from the INVENTORY would be a better approach. I would be mortified making the buy and as we saw with the underwear the police were following them or in some way tracking them.

I agree with Hellmann that without the DNA "evidence" there is no way that the knife can be connected to the crime...I mean DUH. The prosecutor has no need to make his INVENTORY argument at all because he has the DNA. If at all it is just a response to the defense anyway.

If the knife was retrieved properly and DNA and blood were found on it, someone arguing that it couldn't be because no one would return a knife would be laughed out of the court.

Keeping control of the knife would be the way to go. They wouldn't run to the lake at 4 am and toss it. They wouldn't throw it in someone's garbage can.

Rudi didn't dispose of his shoes and knife in town. He took them to Germany.

The kids were being watched 24/7 after noon on the 2nd.

I'll bet that the knife doesn't suck up blood or whatever one is cutting every time one uses it. But as I said earlier if Dan is correct, they should do an experiment and then demand the handle be opened.

Randy, Tesla please acknowledge there was an inventory

 

[Grinder]

The discussion of the knife exemplifies an aspect of this case that troubles. Arguing that the knife doesn't fit most of the wounds and not even the one possible because of the hilt bruise, doesn't match the bloody print on the sheet, the DNA wasn't properly found and it tested negative for blood are all true, powerful arguments that the knife should be thrown out.

Saying that they would never keep it and use it for cutting bread afterwards has no power or demonstrable truth. Although I'm not a crime tourist and have never followed intensely a crime or trial before like this, I'm willing to bet that people have killed with a knife and not thrown it away. We know people kill with guns all the time and keep them.

It's the same with motive. Yes, a easy to understand motive would make the case against much more palatable but not necessary.

A history of torturing cats (no offense Dan) would make the prosecution's case more believable but not necessary.

The ILE didn't make their case on evidence and that's all I care about.

 

[anglolawyer]

The discussion of the knife exemplifies an aspect of this case that troubles. Arguing that the knife doesn't fit most of the wounds and not even the one possible because of the hilt bruise, doesn't match the bloody print on the sheet, the DNA wasn't properly found and it tested negative for blood are all true, powerful arguments that the knife should be thrown out.

snip

Without that knife what is the case against Amanda? In fact since her DNA had every right to be on the handle, what's the case with it? There remains:

luminol - but it's not blood

mixed traces - they lived together

staged burglary - prove it was staged, prove if it was it had to be A & R
the clean up - no evidence of a clean up and Rudy's traces prove there was none

Curatolo - he's dead so tough, neener neener - plus he should be a witness for the defence anyway

Quintavalle - his evidence only makes sense if viewed osmotically, as Mach is now explaining at IIP. I rest my case.

Scream witnesses - could have been anybody and kindly prove you can hear a scream from the apartment all the way across the street and through the closed windows there

Bra clasp - contaminated, sorry

She gave a false alibi - comprehensible only in Italy.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

not sure, however

I must be colour blind. I counted 5 of Amanda or non-attributed (which?) and 1 of Meredith or Filomena (which?) in Amanda's room.

I think I see 2 nonattributed and one of Meredith.

 

[Grinder]

Without that knife what is the case against Amanda? In fact since her DNA had every right to be on the handle, what's the case with it?

Agreed. As we discussed earlier her DNA on knives in Raf's apartment mean nothing vis-a-vis the murder. Did they take the other knives and test them for her DNA or prints?

After cleaning the knife thoroughly as per the police, Stefanoni was able to find her DNA and state that it was at a location that would be for stabbing Meredith. So was the knife clean or not?

There remains:

luminol - but it's not blood

The foot prints are only compatible and not even close to a match. It has been said that other reference prints weren't taken. What's up with that?

staged burglary - prove it was staged, prove if it was it had to be A & R the clean up - no evidence of a clean up and Rudy's traces prove there was none

Nothing there except Meredith's blood and Amanda's DNA.

Curatolo - he's dead so tough, neener neener - plus he should be a witness for the defence anyway

Junkies need to be perfect and he wasn't.

Scream witnesses - could have been anybody and kindly prove you can hear a scream from the apartment all the way across the street and through the closed windows there

No connection to anybody.

Bra clasp - contaminated, sorry

And just too convenient.

She gave a false alibi - comprehensible only in Italy.

But, but she told them what they knew to be correct.

 

[anglolawyer]

I think I see 2 nonattributed and one of Meredith.

There are three unattribs. on the radiator.

 

[RoseMontague]

There are three unattribs. on the radiator.

I see 1 FP attributed to AK and that is in the kitchen/LR. On the glass, IIRC.
The one usable FP in AK's room looks to me to be the color of FR's legend. I don't know why they chose to color code these things rather than just put a note in there, but maybe somebody else sees it differently.

 

[Dan O.]

I must be colour blind. I counted 5 of Amanda or non-attributed (which?) and 1 of Meredith or Filomena (which?) in Amanda's room.

The colors are choosen poorly. For a side by side comparison, look behind the kitchen sink.

Your counts are correct. 3 on the closet and 3 on the radiator.

 

[anglolawyer]

The colors are choosen poorly. For a side by side comparison, look behind the kitchen sink.

Your counts are correct. 3 on the closet and 3 on the radiator.

Who made this document?

 

[RoseMontague]

Who made this document?

It has the Scientific Police seal at the top.

 

[anglolawyer]

It has the Scientific Police seal at the top.

So your point is what?