General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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You know, most people would actually ask their opponent to support their assertion with evidence before dismissing it out of hand.

I asked for evidence in post #6106. Neither did I dismiss the statement "out of hand", as I offered the time between the foundation of the camp and the Red Cross visit as a reason why the camp was not "designed" to fool to Red Cross, though it was later allegedly used for that purpose.

Your post is confusing. You ask for evidence that Theresienstadt was a hoax camp while acknowledging that it was.

Clayton posted a report regarding the conditions in the camp upon the Red Cross visit. He seems to have done so as evidence of conditions in concentration camps in general. It is fair to point out that the report he is quoting was written after the Germans created an elaborate hoax out of the camp. Whatever happened before 1944 is irrelevant to that point. I am more than happy to admit that, from 1941 to 1943, Theresienstadt was an exceedingly unpleasant place.

No, I questioned whether the camp was "designed" or "set up" to fool the Red Cross, which is a different claim from its being used incidentally for that purpose on 23 June 1944. I gather we pretty much agree on the substance of what happened at Theresienstadt, so am happy to drop the matter. Obviously, I can't speak for Clayton.
 
No, I questioned whether the camp was "designed" or "set up" to fool the Red Cross, which is a different claim from its being used incidentally for that purpose on 23 June 1944.



I was refuting a quote made by Clayton which came after 1944. So, in that context, Theresienstadt WAS designed and set up for that purpose. There was nothing "incidental" about it.
 
None of them (Eisenhower, De Gaulle or Churchill) wrote about gas chambers because it wasn't relevant to their perception of the war or to their own experiences.

De Gaulle was concerned with keeping France considered to be major player for the allies so as to maintain French prestige and as a result he downplayed everyone who wasn't French and wasn't a Gaullist.

Churchill's memoirs dealt with his experiences - which were political. While they deal with the war effort they concentrate on the British efforts and experiences and are not a definite history of the entirety of the war.

Same for Ike.

The Holocaust deals with more than just the deaths in the camps - you still need to deal with the Jaeger Report which outlines the murder of 137,346 persons over a 5 month period, of which 136,421 were Jews of all ages.

The Jaeger Report is a fabrication. The ritualistic depiction of alleged German
activities is nonsense. Not unlike the idiocy of feeding Jewish people for months while they are allegedly in queue to be killed.
 
That's a lie. If the world knew a million Jewish people had allegedly been gassed to death in gas chambers it would have been on the front page of all the major US newspapers till the war ended.

The Allies condemned the 'bestial policy of extermination' carried out by the Nazis towards the Jews in December 1942. This condemnation hit the front pages as Loss Leader has shown.

This wasn't the first time that mass murder was reported nor the first time that gas chambers were reported, nor the first time that governments condemned Nazi mass murder of Jews. Nor was it the last time for any of those things.

Your reasoning that this story would have stayed on the front pages for the rest of the war doesn't follow at all. There were hundreds of newsworthy events to be reported by thousands of newspapers. Different newspapers had different policies about where to place them. Since the Holocaust was a 'foreign', European story, it tended to be reported on the inside pages as one would find today with, say, Darfur. But enough papers put these stories on the front page that the news was known.

A brief list of just some of those who condemned the stories of extermination and went on condemning them long after the 'big' story dropped off the front pages:

  • General Sikorski, prime minister of the Polish government-in-exile
  • Archbishop William Temple of Canterbury
  • Cardinal Arthur Hinsley of Westminister
  • Archbishop Spellmann of New York
  • The AFL
  • The CIO
  • Trades Union Congress
  • British Labour Party
  • William Beveridge, author of the eponymous report on British welfare
  • Eleanor Roosevelt
  • Victor Gollancz, publisher and author of a pamphlet on the mass murders that sold 250,000 copies in Britain within three months

The final major action of the Holocaust, the deportations from Hungary to Auschwitz between May and July 1944, were protested by among others:

  • King Gustav V of Sweden
  • Pope Pius XII
  • The Swiss government
  • The Turkish government
  • Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Cordell Hull, US Secretary of State
  • Anthony Eden, British Foreign Secretary
  • Winston Churchill, British Prime Minister
 
If the world knew a million Jewish people had allegedly been gassed to death in gas chambers it would have been on the front page of all the major US newspapers till the war ended.


Setting aside that you are wrong and that the papers did cover it, how do you know what would have happened. Whatever was happening to the Jewish people was happening far, far behind the front lines of the war. Why isn't it reasonable to assume that newspaper coverage and American attention would be focused on the front line battles? What evidence do you have that something would have happened had something else been true?

Other than personal incredulity, I mean.
 
Setting aside that you are wrong and that the papers did cover it, how do you know what would have happened. Whatever was happening to the Jewish people was happening far, far behind the front lines of the war. Why isn't it reasonable to assume that newspaper coverage and American attention would be focused on the front line battles? What evidence do you have that something would have happened had something else been true?

Other than personal incredulity, I mean.

Newspaper coverage also tended to vary wildly from paper to paper. For example in November 1943 most newspapers in the English-speaking world ran one of several stories provided by wire service correspondents assigned to the Soviet Union, these journalists had been taken to Kiev to view Babi Yar after liberation. Here is the pattern of where the stories were placed across 12 different newspapers in Britain, the US, Canada and Australia:

‘Russians Describe Massacre of Jews, Reds Say Between 60,000 and 80,000 Were Slain in Ravine and Their Bodies Burned on Pyre Later’, The Free Lance-Star, 29.11.1943, p.4; ‘Try To Hide Jew Killings’, The Milwaukee Journal, 29.11.1943, p.4; ‘Claim 60,000 Jews Massacred By Nazis at Kiev, Three Witnesses Say Germans Crushed Burned Bodies’, The Calgary Herald, 1.12.1943, p.17 (Eddy Gilmore, Kiev, AP)

‘Mass Cremation, Nazi Atrocities at Kiev’, The Manchester Guardian, 29.11.1943, p.6; ‘900,000 people in Kiev murdered or sent into slavery’, Daily Express, 29.11.1943, p.4; ‘Victims of German Occupation of Kiev, Bodies of Between 50,000 and 80,000 People Dug Up’, The Indian Express, 30.11.1943, p.1 (Reuters)

‘Bodies of 70,000 Massacred Russians Said To Have Been Buried in Ravine by Germans’, The Bulletin, 24.11.1943, p.15; ‘Kiev “Suffered Worst Of All Russian Cities”, Jewish Population of 200,000 in Third Biggest Soviet City Cut to Six by Nazis’, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 29.11.1943, p.2; ‘Tale of Horror Uncovered After Recapture of Kiev, Thousands Slain in Atrocity’, Berkeley Daily Gazette, 29.11.1943, p.2 (Henry Shapiro, Kiev, UP)

‘Kiev Massacre Uncovered’, Sydney Morning Herald, 22.11.1943, p.4 (Moscow, AAP); ‘Massacre at Kiev’, The Age, 22.11.1943, p.1 (London, AAP)

‘Kiev Massacre Story: One Grave For 80,000, Germans Tried to Hide Evidence of Machine Gun Purge’, The Milwaukee Sentinel, 29.11.1943, pp.1, 7 (Jerome Davis, Kiev, INS)

Only three out of twelve papers ran the story on the front page, despite the fact that these were on the spot eyewitness reports from western journalists, mostly with bylines. The longest and best positioned story was the report by Jerome Davis that ran in The Milwaukee Sentinel. That was a genuine 'headline story'.

One reason that such stories did not routinely make the front page was a reluctance to foreground atrocity reports of any kind, due to the media getting their fingers burned with WWI atrocity propaganda.

Another reason they were downplayed is because they involved Jews. Stories about atrocities against US servicemen or Christians often received much better placement. During WWII, the NYT's night editorial staff, who were the ones who effectively decided on which stories went where, was composed entirely of committed Catholics, who routinely pushed stories about Catholic victims to the fore, and downplayed other groups.
 
Setting aside that you are wrong and that the papers did cover it, how do you know what would have happened. Whatever was happening to the Jewish people was happening far, far behind the front lines of the war. Why isn't it reasonable to assume that newspaper coverage and American attention would be focused on the front line battles? What evidence do you have that something would have happened had something else been true?

Other than personal incredulity, I mean.

Yeah sure. If a million Jewish children, women, and men were known to have been killed in "gas chambers" in alleged death camps the first year, the whole war effort by Germany would have likely collapsed. The Germany military and the civilian population would not have tolerated it.
 
Yeah sure. If a million Jewish children, women, and men were known to have been killed in "gas chambers" in alleged death camps the first year, the whole war effort by Germany would have likely collapsed. The Germany military and the civilian population would not have tolerated it.


What evidence do you have of that? Sociology, psychiatry and history show you are mistaken.
 
What evidence do you have of that [that the German civilian population would not have tolerated the killing of a million Jews in gas chambers]? Sociology, psychiatry and history show you are mistaken.

Psychiatry is concerned with the treatment of mental illness, so perhaps you mean psychology? Can you cite any scholarly work in any of these disciplines in support of your last assertion?
 
What evidence do you have of that? Sociology, psychiatry and history show you are mistaken.

The same evidence I have that the Jewish people in the camp would have gone berserk if they knew of atrocities against their children was taking place in the camp.
 
Clayton you have no evidence only surmise, it is on record that some of the inmates did try to fight back, but as most of the inmates did not have access to weapons, and were on starvation level rations and forced to work doing heavy manual labour, they were in no fit condition to fight back. And bear in mind most of them had been forced into ghettoes without access to decent food supplies they were already physically run down and close to death.

That is the ones who were not immediately murdered on arrival.
 
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