General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Muc]

"There is a Red Cross document on the Internet that estimates the total number of deaths of peoples from all groups in all camps at about 280,000. Now everyone has an agenda but the 6 million figures and this number are so ridiculously different I wonder where should one begin to look to find the truth about the 'holocaust'."

You mean this load of bull excrement here?

I'll spare myself some work by just copy/pasting what I told Fetzer some weeks ago (he ignored it and stopped responding to me).

1) Those scans only mention deaths that have been registered with certificates ("beurkundete Sterbefälle") in a registration office ("Standesamt"). The people that were "gassed" in the camps or shot by the Einsatzgruppen were obviously not registered that way before they were killed.

2) Those numbers were not assembled by the Red Cross but by the "Sonderstandesamt Arolsen", a registration office that issues death certificates for missing persons whose death is confirmed to that authority. The number is continually rising.

3) The first (and newer) document from 1984 has an underlined section near the bottom which - translated into English - states in no uncertain terms: "The certified numbers of the [Sonderstandesamt] don't allow cocnclusions regarding the overall number of deaths in the concentration camps." They obviously had already made their experiences with Holocaust deniers using their documents to misrepresent their data at that point.

Whoever uploaded the scans in this context is either a fraud or talking out of his ass, and he clearly either doesn't understand German or doesn't expect his readers to.

Oh, and I forgot: I think your not supposed to read those two scans as if they represented different numbers that are to be added. The newer on is simply an updated version of the older one with added numbers.

 

[Loss Leader]

It's like what the Jewish people say between themselves "There's no business like Shoah business."

I'm Jewish. Do I say this?

Or did you mean that this was the accusation of a single writer who happens to be Jewish in 2000?

And did you forget to mention that this writer doesn't deny or even minimize the events of the Holocaust as both of his parents were survivors?

As hard as it is for you to imagine, all Jews do not live in one big house. We do not walk in lock step. We do not conspire at secret meetings. Talking about the opinions or motivations of "the Jewish people" is as useful as talking about the true meaning of Christmas.

Now, please be honest about your sources. In this case, you have found one single Jewish author who believes the Holocaust is being exploited - not that any fact about it is wrong or exaggerated, just that it is being exploited. And many, many scholars have countered that argument.

 

[Border Reiver]

Now, please be honest about your sources. In this case, you have found one single Jewish author who believes the Holocaust is being exploited - not that any fact about it is wrong or exaggerated, just that it is being exploited. And many, many scholars have countered that argument.

Further to this, just because an event is exploited for gain doesn't mean that it didn't happen in the generally accepted manner:

a. Mr. Day's pretend service doesn't negate the existence of the SAS;or
b. The existence of this book, doesn't mean that Pte Baptiste actually survived the Battle of Hong Kong (at least if the DNA test that showed he wasn't related to the people on the reserve he said he was).

 

[Clayton Moore]

You mean this load of bull excrement here?

I'll spare myself some work by just copy/pasting what I told Fetzer some weeks ago (he ignored it and stopped responding to me).

Red Cross Recipients Were Jews

The Report states that "As many as 9,000 parcels were packed daily. From the autumn of 1943 until May 1945, about 1,112,000 parcels with a total weight of 4,500 tons were sent off to the concentration camps" (Vol. III, p. 80). In addition to food, these contained clothing and pharmaceutical supplies. "Parcels were sent to Dachau, Buchenwald, Sangerhausen, Sachsenhausen, Oranienburg, Flossenburg, Landsberg-am-Lech, Flöha, Ravensbrück, Hamburg-Neuengamme, Mauthausen, Theresienstadt, Auschwitz, Bergen-Belsen, to camps near Vienna and in Central and Southern Germany. The principal recipients were Belgians, Dutch, French, Greeks, Italians, Norwegians, Poles and stateless Jews" (Vol. III, p. 83).

In the course of the war, "The Committee was in a position to transfer and distribute in the form of relief supplies over twenty million Swiss francs collected by Jewish welfare organisations throughout the world, in particular by the American Joint Distribution Committee of New York" (Vol. I, p. 644). This latter organisation was permitted by the German Government to maintain offices in Berlin until the American entry into the war. The ICRC complained that obstruction of their vast relief operation for Jewish internees came not from the Germans but from the tight Allied blockade of Europe. Most of their purchases of relief food were made in Rumania, Hungary and Slovakia.

The ICRC had special praise for the liberal conditions which prevailed at Theresienstadt up to the time of their last visits there in April 1945. This camp, "where there were about 40,000 Jews deported from various countries was a relatively privileged ghetto" (Vol. III, p. 75). According to the Report, "'The Committee's delegates were able to visit the camp at Theresienstadt (Terezin) which was used exclusively for Jews and was governed by special conditions. From information gathered by the Committee, this camp had been started as an experiment by certain leaders of the Reich ... These men wished to give the Jews the means of setting up a communal life in a town under their own administration and possessing almost complete autonomy. . . two delegates were able to visit the camp on April 6th, 1945. They confirmed the favourable impression gained on the first visit" (Vol. I, p . 642).

 

[Loss Leader]

Red Cross Recipients Were Jews

Theresienstadt? That's your example? Theresienstadt? The model camp designed specifically to fool the red cross?

Anyone looking back from this point in history would have to purposefully blind himself in order to consider the model camp to be evidence of how Jews were treated overall.

 

[EtienneSC]

Theresienstadt? That's your example? Theresienstadt? The model camp designed specifically to fool the red cross?

Anyone looking back from this point in history would have to purposefully blind himself in order to consider the model camp to be evidence of how Jews were treated overall.

Where is the evidence that Theresienstadt was designed to fool the Red Cross? The Red Cross visited in June 1944, but the camp was founded in November 1941. According to the USHMM it was primarily the German people who were to be fooled, with a separate "elaborate hoax" organized for the benefit of the Red Cross following the deportation of Danish Jews there.
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005424

 

[EtienneSC]

[.....] I have seen several Holocaust deniers whine how-come-her-work-isn't-out, ever since the first publicity for Sturdy Colls' work at Treblinka appeared in January 2012, even though she was already talking about it at academic conferences in 2011, an article appeared in Polish in 2012, an English translation is due this year and another article is due then too, and a book promised within two years of the first news. Even if it stretches to three years, so what?

Compare this with Holocaust denier Richard Krege, whose 'survey' of Treblinka in October 1999 has simply never appeared.

According to Frederick Toben in early 2013, Krege has a young family and doesn't want the problems that he thinks would accompany publication of his findings. Fortunately, Caroline Sturdy Colls seems to be made of sterner stuff.

 

[Dcdrac]

Clayton it is well known the example you have given was a model camp set up by the Nazis to fool the Red Crossm that has been verified as well unlike your assertions.

It is also well known that most of the people at that camp were murdered by the Nazis too.

mr Moore tell me whydo you find it acceptable for the Nazis to have persecuted this one group of people? you have indicated as such in earlier posts, with rather flimsy excuses.

 

[Dcdrac]

Here is a good palce for information about Theresienstadt

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005424

 

[EtienneSC]

Clayton it is well known the example you have given was a model camp set up by the Nazis to fool the Red Crossm that has been verified as well unlike your assertions.

It is also well known that most of the people at that camp were murdered by the Nazis too.

mr Moore tell me whydo you find it acceptable for the Nazis to have persecuted this one group of people? you have indicated as such in earlier posts, with rather flimsy excuses.

This is the second contributor to this list to have made a similar claim about Theresienstadt. Firstly, Loss Leader claimed that it was "designed specifically to fool the red cross". Now Dcdrac states that it was "set up by the Nazis to fool the Red Cross". However, the camp was founded in November 1941 and the Red Cross visit was not until June 1944.

The basic situation seems to be that the Red Cross report prepared on the basis of an on-site investigation casts doubt on the current story about the camp, so has to be discredited. It seems thought that the preparations for the Red Cross visit relate purely to events in 1944.

 

[000063]

This is the second contributor to this list to have made a similar claim about Theresienstadt. Firstly, Loss Leader claimed that it was "designed specifically to fool the red cross". Now Dcdrac states that it was "set up by the Nazis to fool the Red Cross". However, the camp was founded in November 1941 and the Red Cross visit was not until June 1944.

The basic situation seems to be that the Red Cross report prepared on the basis of an on-site investigation casts doubt on the current story about the camp, so has to be discredited. It seems thought that the preparations for the Red Cross visit relate purely to events in 1944.

You know, most people would actually ask their opponent to support their assertion with evidence before dismissing it out of hand.

 

[Dcdrac]

The camp was reavamped in 1944 to fool the Red Cross it was used as a deportation and holding area largely before then.

This is to clarify the earler post.

it is on record as having been used to deceive the Red Cross in 1944.

 

[Dcdrac]

The point remains valid Clayton tried to use this camp as an example of the nazis giving red cross access and parcels to those they were needlessly persecuting.

His attempt fails becasue the camp was used in an elaborate deception by the Nazis to decieve the Red Cross.

 

[Border Reiver]

This is the second contributor to this list to have made a similar claim about Theresienstadt. Firstly, Loss Leader claimed that it was "designed specifically to fool the red cross". Now Dcdrac states that it was "set up by the Nazis to fool the Red Cross". However, the camp was founded in November 1941 and the Red Cross visit was not until June 1944.

The basic situation seems to be that the Red Cross report prepared on the basis of an on-site investigation casts doubt on the current story about the camp, so has to be discredited. It seems thought that the preparations for the Red Cross visit relate purely to events in 1944.

June 23, 1944 - after the D-Day landings and after it became apparent that the Allies were going to beat the "invicible" Reich. The Red Cross was allowed to visit so that the nazis could have something to counteract all the other evidence of atrocities being carried out in the camps.

The Red Cross' report doesn't cast doubt on the "current story", it was a single, planned visit that was carefully stage-managed.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Where is the evidence that Theresienstadt was designed to fool the Red Cross? The Red Cross visited in June 1944, but the camp was founded in November 1941. According to the USHMM it was primarily the German people who were to be fooled, with a separate "elaborate hoax" organized for the benefit of the Red Cross following the deportation of Danish Jews there.
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005424

It's the same old, same old. When you tell a lie about the Holocaust and it becomes obvious that it didn't make any sense another lie must be conjured up.

As in why would the German people give a flying crap about Jewish people when the Jewish people were allegedly being exterminated? Were Germans invited to visit the Theresienstadt camp?

Take a gander at the latest version/update from Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresienstadt_concentration_camp
Industrial labor

Theresienstadt was used to supply the German war effort with a source of Jewish slave labor. Their major contribution was the splitting of local ore mined from Czechoslovakian mica. Blind prisoners were often spared deportation by assignment to this task. Others manufactured boxes or coffins. Others sprayed military uniforms with a white dye to provide camouflage for German soldiers on the Russian front. According to ex-prisoners, Theresienstadt was also a sorting and re-distribution centre for underwear and clothing confiscated from Jews

"from all parts of Germany, the baggage taken away from the Jews was sent to Theresienstadt, and there it was packaged, sorted-out in order to be sent out all over the country, to various cities, for the people who were bombed-out and suffered a shortage of underwear and clothing."[16]

Cultural activities and legacy

Theresienstadt was originally designated as a model community for middle-class Jews from Germany, Czechoslovakia, and Austria. Many educated Jews were inmates of Theresienstadt. In a propaganda effort designed to fool the Western allies, the Nazis publicized the camp for its rich cultural life. But, a Holocaust survivor said: "During the early period there were no (musical) instruments whatsoever, and the cultural life came to develop itself only ... when the whole management of Theresienstadt was steered into an organized course".[16] At least four concert orchestras were organized in the camp, as well as chamber groups and jazz ensembles. Several stage performances were produced and attended by camp inmates. Many prominent artists from Czechoslovakia, Austria, and Germany were imprisoned there. Others included writers, scientists, jurists, diplomats, musicians, and scholars.

The community in Theresienstadt tried to ensure that all the children who passed through the camp continued with their education. The Nazis required all camp children over a certain age to work, but accepted working on stage as employment. The prisoners achieved the children's education under the guise of work or cultural activity. Daily classes and sports activities were held. The community published a magazine, Vedem.

Now, here, it was to fool the Western allies.

And below it wasn't there to fool anyone.

Theresienstadt concentration camp, also referred to as Theresienstadt Ghetto,[1][2][3] was established by the SS during World War II in the fortress and garrison city of Terezín (German name Theresienstadt), located in what is now the Czech Republic. During World War II it served as a Nazi concentration camp staffed by German Nazi guards.

Tens of thousands of people died there, some killed outright and others dying from malnutrition and disease. More than 150,000 other persons (including tens of thousands of children) were held there for months or years, before being sent by rail transports to their deaths at Treblinka and Auschwitz extermination camps in occupied Poland, as well as to smaller camps elsewhere.

Blind prisoners were often spared deportation by assignment to this task.
How could anyone believe that was true?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Clayton it is well known the example you have given was a model camp set up by the Nazis to fool the Red Crossm that has been verified as well unlike your assertions.

It is also well known that most of the people at that camp were murdered by the Nazis too.

mr Moore tell me whydo you find it acceptable for the Nazis to have persecuted this one group of people? you have indicated as such in earlier posts, with rather flimsy excuses.

Where did I say any mistreatment of Jewish people was acceptable?

Less than 300,000 people died in the camps.

There were no gas chambers or gas vans used to kill millions of Jewish people or anyone else.


War is crap.

The Germans couldn't have killed the "first million Jewish people" without the world knowing about it.

That's why the alleged "gas chambers" were never mentioned in the writings of Ike, de Gaulle, and Winnie. The "gas chambers" didn't exist and they didn't want their legacy tarnished by such an obvious lie.

 

[Loss Leader]

Where is the evidence that Theresienstadt was designed to fool the Red Cross? The Red Cross visited in June 1944, but the camp was founded in November 1941. According to the USHMM it was primarily the German people who were to be fooled, with a separate "elaborate hoax" organized for the benefit of the Red Cross following the deportation of Danish Jews there.
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005424

Your post is confusing. You ask for evidence that Theresienstadt was a hoax camp while acknowledging that it was.

Clayton posted a report regarding the conditions in the camp upon the Red Cross visit. He seems to have done so as evidence of conditions in concentration camps in general. It is fair to point out that the report he is quoting was written after the Germans created an elaborate hoax out of the camp. Whatever happened before 1944 is irrelevant to that point. I am more than happy to admit that, from 1941 to 1943, Theresienstadt was an exceedingly unpleasant place.

 

[Border Reiver]

That's why the alleged "gas chambers" were never mentioned in the writings of Ike, de Gaulle, and Winnie. The "gas chambers" didn't exist and they didn't want their legacy tarnished by such an obvious lie.

None of them (Eisenhower, De Gaulle or Churchill) wrote about gas chambers because it wasn't relevant to their perception of the war or to their own experiences.

De Gaulle was concerned with keeping France considered to be major player for the allies so as to maintain French prestige and as a result he downplayed everyone who wasn't French and wasn't a Gaullist.

Churchill's memoirs dealt with his experiences - which were political. While they deal with the war effort they concentrate on the British efforts and experiences and are not a definite history of the entirety of the war.

Same for Ike.

The Holocaust deals with more than just the deaths in the camps - you still need to deal with the Jaeger Report which outlines the murder of 137,346 persons over a 5 month period, of which 136,421 were Jews of all ages.

 

[Nick Terry]

According to Frederick Toben in early 2013, Krege has a young family and doesn't want the problems that he thinks would accompany publication of his findings. Fortunately, Caroline Sturdy Colls seems to be made of sterner stuff.

Krege's "findings" were trumpeted all over the denier press and websites, with scans included to show what supposedly had not been found. Over the years quite a few people with expertise in GPR have commented on them at various places around the internet, and said the claim made very firmly by Krege was nonsense. To pass muster Krege's bull faeces would have to convince experts who knew about GPR. Evidently Krege and his acolytes realised that wasn't going to happen. Cue the death of the last ever 'revisionist' forensic report.

The very fact that Krege's name was firmly attached to this 'coup' back in 1999 is a further refutation of the 'oh he's worried about his family' nonsense. Whatever social disapproval he would incur was already guaranteed simply by associating himself with the Adelaide Institute. Krege also went to Teheran in 2006, i.e. about 7 years after the 'investigation', so it's clear that Toeben is simply dissembling to save what little credibility remains of a hoary old denier canard.

Incidentally, the Adelaide Institute seem to have been associated with a video, sometimes named 'Amalek' in versions found on YouTube, where a group of young Germans supposedly exposed themselves to what was billed as Zyklon B, in an effort to prove the ludicrous claim that Zyklon B couldn't have worked as a poison - overturning about two decades of revisionist claims that Zyklon B was super-poisonous.

And finally, since this is a skeptics' forum, it's worth underscoring the fact that Toeben has also espoused 9/11 conspiracy theories, global warming skepticism and HIV/AIDS denial. He's an all-round crackpot, and long may he continue to shoot revisionism in both feet with his antics.

 

[EtienneSC]

Open air cremations

There is a particularly clear analysis here of the central claims made by holocaust experts about the open air cremations which are alleged to have occurred at Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor on the basis of eye-witness testimony:

http://youtu.be/zQsxt9tPVOA

I wonder if anyone has an answer to the points made?