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19 Hotshots Killed in Yarnell Hill Fire

How do firefighters feel about people who keep rebuilding a town in a place that's known to be dangerous when it comes to fires?

Do they have fire risk maps like they have flood risk maps?

The problem with this issue is that the homes that are at risk of being hit by a bush fire is any within a few kilometers of the edge of town. This means that if the town is less than a few kilometers wide then the whole town could be wiped out.

About the only way I can think of to reduce this risk is to ensure towns are surrounded by farms. I do not think this is always viable.

Edit. A good way to avoid having your house burnt down in a bushfire is to live in a big city well away from the edge. But for various reasons only some people can do that.
 
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How do firefighters feel about people who keep rebuilding a town in a place that's known to be dangerous when it comes to fires?

Do they have fire risk maps like they have flood risk maps?

Any fire risk map would include pretty much all of California. The whole state is basically a giant tinderbox and any town older than a century will have burned down at least once. You just try and prepare for the worst and hope the next fire happens somewhere else. That means you keep the brush clear around your immediate house, keep the grass down and have an escape plan. This also means things like fireworks are crazy illegal. You go to jail for just looking at a sparkler. :D

No, but seriously a lot of our fires were caused by fireworks so they did get very tough on enforcing those laws.
 
I'm not belittling the firefighters who died. What I object to is the media hoopla, which is a case of milking personal tragedy for profit.

My apologies- obviously I wasn't being clear.

When I referred to my grandfather's day and age, I was referring to the manner in which average people dealt with such things, before the big media empires got involved and used such events for fodder.

You must realise that the media portrayal and perception and repetition is an artificial thing with a life all its own? This is the type of thing I refer to as a "milker". Once the media get hold of something that touches a nerve, they will, perversely in my opinion, keep at it until they've milked it dry.

In the process, every talking head wants you to know who they are and whose media outfit you're watching/reading/listening to, as though they've stuck the suffixes patented, trademarked, copyrighted and patent pending after each mention of the tragedy in question.

Social media does get a lot of information out there but it also has a dimension of perversity.
 
I'm afraid I still don't quite understand. Who cares that the media talks about it? They talk about it because they know that we care when 19 people die in a horrific tragedy. So that is what they show us.

It isn't that we care because they cover it, they cover it because we care.
 
How do firefighters feel about people who keep rebuilding a town in a place that's known to be dangerous when it comes to fires?
Having been one of them for a few years, I can say that I never had any reaction to that at all or observed one in any of my colleagues. People who deal with nature on a routine basis tend to just take the way things are as they way they are, not ponder hypothetical alternatives that could only exist in some other universe we don't live in. But, having been prompted by the question, I'll play along...

Get a map of the continental USA & Canada. Draw one line starting at the Pacific coast somewhere in middle/northern California and then running northeast until it gets a couple hundred miles away from the coast, then turning north/northwest parallel to the coast maintaining about that same distance from it. Now look farther east, to that column of states from Louisiana to Minnesota, which all use the Mississippi River as an eastern border. Draw a roughly north-south line through those states or along/near their western borders. Continue both lines into Canada at least a few hundred miles. The area between those lines, maybe minus some special spots here and there, is the area you would need to depopulate first. Then you'd need to start picking out some state-sized chunks of the Southeast.

Changing this just isn't ever going to be a possibility. But there are some risky behaviors by residents in such areas that actually are within the realms of realistic choice, and do irritate a lot of wildfire fighters for exactly that reason:
1. Staying when they should evacuate
2. Construction & landscaping practices that tend to feed fires
 
I'm not belittling the firefighters who died. What I object to is the media hoopla, which is a case of milking personal tragedy for profit.

My apologies- obviously I wasn't being clear.


Then you ought to think more carefully before you phrase things this way:


There is a certain mentality that wants to push the envelope and take charge of what Nature throws at us. Some people see them as heroes, others see them as fools. I fall into the latter camp.
(Bolding added)

How do firefighters feel about people who keep rebuilding a town in a place that's known to be dangerous when it comes to fires?

Do they have fire risk maps like they have flood risk maps?

There are some key things here.

First, homeowners in those areas need to focus on "Defensive Space" - having a cleared area around the structure, to make it easier to defend. Second, houses or cabins can be made out or sheathed in materials that resist fire - tile roofs, aluminum siding, that sort of thing. They need to understand that if they want a good firefighter defense, it costs money.

About a week after the recent destructive fire in Colorado Springs, there was a fire near Mid-pines in California (near where Travis lives). I used to live in near Mid-pines and nearly bought a house there (the house I nearly bought was evacuated during the fire). The resources thrown at the Mid-pines fire dwarfed the Colorado Springs fire - yet, the mid-pines fire was not much in the news, because the firefighting response worked and kept the fire outside of town.

California has suffered its share of fire disasters and is now loaded for bear. They have the usual federal agencies but they also have a very robust state government firefighting capability. Colorado is learning the hard way that it is time for them to do that, and it ain't cheap. People in CA complain about the taxes used to fund CDF, but it makes vast areas of the state safe to live in.

Rural towns need to get central water systems with hydrants installed - the big structural fire engines can do wonders for structure protection if they have water - if they have enough water they can frequently stay in the area when the flame front approaches. Rural towns need to have ponds or pre-planned water locations for helicopters to dip into. They need to have evacuation plans with routes, evacuation facilities and contact methods (like reverse 911) planned out in advance.

People also need to understand that when it is time to leave, then it is time to leave. Firefighters take risks in part because people are slow to evacuate, or refuse to evacuate then later ask for help.

To me, at least, defensive space is a key thing that gets overlooked. Colorado is demonstrating that big fires are encroaching into places not previously thought susceptible, or in times of the year not anticipated. People who never thought themselves at risk are experiencing fire on a large scale. People need to start thinking outside the box and putting in defensive space even if they live in places they don't think are at risk of wildfire.

Ultimately it comes down to cost - pay the money early through taxes, or through insurance. When areas burn, we need to resist the impulse to give federal or state money to help with reconstruction. If the true cost of defending or rebuilding from fire were expressed in advance, a good may people would not go there, or would settle for more modest weekend cabins that they can afford to let burn without too much heartache. Right now, many rural areas are effectively subsidized through artificially low insurance rates, or through statewide (or federal) tax funds paying for firefighting and reconstruction resources that only benefit a small number of rural citizens. I say that as someone who has lived my entire life in rural areas or small towns. My lifestyle is subsidized and I would not mind paying more, if there is good reason for it.
 
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For example, a big to-do was made back in the 60's as a result of the television show Bonanza. There was a scene with some manly hugging, groping and fondling, which flew in the face of how men really acted in those days. Within the span of a few months, every television show had to have a scene of manly hugging, groping and fondling, which generally ended with one of us angrily shutting off the idiot box.

A little off topic, but this is nonsense. There was no scene in the course of Bonanza's initial run when any men "groped" or "fondled" each other, nor any resultant "big to do".

Your other assertions are hyperbolic.
 
I haven't read the whole thread, so forgive me if this has been brought up before. I have to say that fire fighters, including hotshots and everyone else, are not fools, and if the term has any meaning they are clearly heros.

I grew up in a fire-fighting family. I've seen everything from how they care for the equipment, to how they act in the community, to the toll that this activity takes on the family. I can say with some pride that while my father was fire chief not a single house burned down due to accidental fire (controlled burns are another story). (The pride comes from the fact that I helped--not as a fireman, I was too young, but running SCBA bottles, sandwiches, water, etc. for the firemen [no sexism here--they were all men], running messages for them, that sort of thing.) Dad once spent 80 hours in turnout gear after a major windstorm damn near wiped out my home town. Tell me that someone putting their life at risk to save the lives of others in a place that was described by active military personnel as the closest thing to a war zone they'd ever seen outside a war isn't a hero. I'm not one; I just helped Dad and some friends. But fire fighters are.

Fire fighters are highly trained, highly skilled people, even volunteer fire-fighters. Fires are incredibly dangers, and most of us simply do not understand them. My dad's favorite trick to play on newbs is to get a car fire going nice and hot, then handing them a 2" line. Not one thinks anything of it--until the fire splits the H2 from the O, and they recombine in a hellish fireball that generally requires them to get a new pair of pants. Then there are issues with the various foams, and with heat exahustion, and with controling the people around the fire, and with filling the SCBAs, and with how to drive a truck with 10,000 gallons of water in it.... And these are just some of the problems fire fighters are trained to deal with. They are not fools. They are highly educated men and women doing an insanely dangerous job because someone has to.

If they don't do what they do, people die. It's just that simple. In attempting to put out wildfires they give people time to get out alive. If they can stop the fire, great; if not, people at least get a chance to evacuate, rather than dying in their beds as the flames rage past and--quite literally--through them. If they do nothing it WILL spread, it will spread FASTER, and people WILL die. I have seen fire jump from one house to another without actually touching it; the same thing happens in wildfires, only on a much larger scale. The loss of 19 hotshots is a tragedy, and everyone involved in emergency response justifiably morned their loss. But that doesn't make their actions foolish; it merely highlights the importance of doing what they do.

From a paleontological perspective I can assure you that fires as we know them now are a very new thing. There were wildfires in the past, yes; however, evidence in the form of charcoal and other bits of fire debris demonstrate that they were nowhere near as big as the ones we get today. The local ecology has been devistated--when was the last time you saw a herd of a quarter-million bison running around, for example? That loss has increased the rate of accumulation of plant material, creating the conditions necessary for the monsterous blazes we get today. Controled burns help, but are a high-risk option in that they have a nasty tendancy to become wildfires themselves. What we're seeing isn't Mother Nature being upset; we are seeing the consequences of our own actions, and WE need to deal with them. There are a grand total of two ways: allow ourselves to be destroyed, to the point where large herbivores can again roam the plains and mountains (it'll take a few million years), or fight the fires.
 
I'm sorry you feel the need to "play along." It was a sincere question. After floods there are always people who question the wisdom of rebuilding in that area, especially when they learn that some areas are much more prone to flooding than others. I also know that firefighters are big on prevention and safety. Therefore, it's only natural to wonder about their feelings on rebuilding a small town that nearly burned down three times and whose location could result in unusually dangerous conditions.


I never said anything about depopulating. I asked about fire risk maps similar to flood risk maps. I guess I could have searched myself. Turns out such maps do exist. Apparently I cannot post links, so if someone can fix this to show an example, I would appreciate it.

www forestry state al us
/GISMaps/WildfireRisk
/Wildland_Fire_Susceptibility_Rating_for_Autauga_County.pdf

It's a small area. About half is green, meaning low risk. About half is moderate to high risk. A tiny part is very high risk. It is very detailed.

That is for Alabama only, BTW. There are probably similar maps for other states, but I can't find one for the entire US--and you are outside the risk area previously defined....
www texaswildfirerisk com /map

The above map covers all of Texas.

So, yes, they do make maps that describe fire risk, and they are much more granular than your description. Nobody creating those maps is advocating depopulation that I can see, so I am not sure why you assumed I was.
http://www.texaswildfirerisk.com/map
 
rwguinn said:
That is for Alabama only, BTW.
I've lived in Alabama and California. Did a lot of work in the Southeast and the Southwest. The Southwest has a problem that the Southeast doesn't: a lack of rain. In Montgomery rain is much more common than in, say, Blyth. This has two impacts on wildfires:

1) The rain itself can help control or stop a wildfire (containment is another issue). A good thunderstorm can do a lot to dampen the wood in the path of blazes, as well as simply extinguishing the fire outright. Fire fighters in towns and cities do the same thing--they have water curtains they can put up between houses, and will often spray down the houses next to a fire to keep them from flairing up.

2) Alabama has more WATER than California or Nevada. It's easier to get that critical resource to where it needs to be. Compare that with Mojave, Blythe, Needles, or any other desert town in California or Nevada. The stuff in the desert's also easier to burn. Creosote has a long history of being easily flamable, while live grass and green wood is much harder to light.

I can easily see Alalbama's fire hazard map being far more granular than California's. It's a function of the difference in climate.
 
I am confused. I didn't define a risk area. I asked if they made fire risk maps. Delvo then described a map of the USA and Canada and talked about depopulation.

Pretty much the entire Desert Southwest and Great Planes are at high risk for fires. You can quibble about how high, but the specifics don't really matter--the entire place is a tinderbox ready to go up pretty quickly. If we treated fire risk maps the way we treat flood maps, we'd have to evacuate those areas because no one would insure them.

By the way, you can't really make fire risk maps the way you make flood risk maps. Floods operate under better-understood rules and are far more predictable. Floods don't jump from one valley to another, or run uphill, or show up out of the blue; we know when floods are coming (it has to rain in order to flood), and we know where they're going (the drainage basins). Fires, on the other hand, can spring up at any time, anywhere, and play by very different rules. We can map risk but we cannot predict what will get hit before the fire actually starts, and often not even after it's been burning.
 
I checked the FAA website, and they assured me that Great Planes are extremely low risk for fires. :D

I don't understand your claim about insurance, and I think it is wrong.

Fire damage is covered by property insurance, so the risk is spread across the entire customer base.

Ah, not so really. Out here almost all home owner insurance policies contain language that exempt them from fire damage caused by a wildfire which they term as "an act of God."

A home can catch on fire all by itself, which is why everyone accepts fire damage as being standard for property insurance. All homes are pretty much equal when it comes to the risk of "single home" fires as opposed to the wildfires we're discussing. A home cannot flood itself the way Mother Nature can. People don't want to pay for something that will probably never happen.

Unfortunately lots of people have strange ideas about wildfire risk. They think only isolated homes in the wilderness are in danger while their house is safe because it is in the middle of a huge housing development of thousands of homes with green lawns. Then they watch in amazement as their house burns down along with every other house in that development. Then get really shocked when they find out their home owners insurance policy won't cover it.

I would be extremely surprised if homes in higher fire risk areas don't have higher property insurance rates than those in low risk areas.

In California such a term is really meaningless. You are as much at risk of a wildfire in any place you will find. See Oakland in 1990 when a wildfire burned right through an urban area without blinking killing a lot of people in the process.

As I understand it property insurance rates can be affected by how far away the fire department is.

Possibly. For a standalone structural fire. My house is only three blocks from the nearest fire station and just seven blocks from another but that doesn't mean I have wildfire damage covered by my standard home owners insurance policy.
 
After floods there are always people who question the wisdom of rebuilding in that area, especially when they learn that some areas are much more prone to flooding than others.
Unfortunately, flooding tends to happen in places that are the best places for people, based on other criteria.

I never said anything about depopulating.
The point was that avoiding building in where fires tend to happen would require it, so your question did call for a reference to it in answer anyway.

they do make maps that describe fire risk, and they are much more granular than your description.
I can easily see Alalbama's fire hazard map being far more granular than California's. It's a function of the difference in climate.
Any state can produce fire risk maps showing a variety of fire risk levels within the limited context of just that state. I was in on the project to update Florida's when I worked for the Florida Division of Forestry. The problem is that some whole states are at such greater risk than others that the different risk levels of one state all look the same to another state. An easy way to visualize the same kind of thing is with altitudes; all states have a range of altitudes, but the lowest point in the deepest valley of a mountainous state is still hundreds or even a few thousand feet higher than the highest hill in a mountainless one. Similarly, one agency dealing with fires might not even have any fire danger levels high enough to describe the lowest level used by another agency, or even a way of assessing it, it would just be so far outside of their context/familiarity.

So a national attempt to map fire risks would be dealing with such wide disparities between major regions that any "granularity" within such a region would look puny and irrelevant, with the greatest danger zones in one region being safer than the safest parts of another.
 
I suppose if you were really serious about it you could move everyone out of the smaller towns and concentrate people in the Central Valley where agriculture keeps most major fires at bay. But who is willing to fund this?
 
Well I'm sure Modesto is less likely to burn down considering where it is than my town. But my town is really no different than hundreds of other small towns in the mountains. We are all at risk up here.
 
No to mention the fact that those fire risk maps change from month to month, and sometimes day to day. It's not smart to base an insurance type decision on a condition that changes frequently.
 
Because they're using outdated information? They may look at years worth of data, and try to get an average, but that information can change from week to week. The data cited here, is not the best data available.
 
And none of it makes fighting the fires less necessary. I mean if some politician wants to propose a plan to buy up all the small logging towns and whatnot...maybe.
 

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