Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Diogenes]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_ToQuEG1gmQ


Filmmaker Jeff Hays has announced a new documentary called "Bought." It will expose the criminality and corruption of the vaccine industry and Big Pharma,

Wow, you're gullible, but that was clear from your sig, anyway.

 

[pakeha]

It's amusing reading the rabble's defense of the human pretenders playing Dr. Frankenstein jury rigging the human immune system when it can't even be determined why bees are dying and toddlers are becoming autistic in droves. 1 in about 40 now becoming autistic in India.

Could you give a source for that figure in India, please?

added:
Could you explain why you think children become autistic, rather than are born autistic?

 

[LSSBB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_ToQuEG1gmQ


Filmmaker Jeff Hays has announced a new documentary called "Bought." It will expose the criminality and corruption of the vaccine industry and Big Pharma,

And make more money for Chiropractors?

What does it have to do with autism anyway? Is it based on facts, or is it possibly, maybe, I don't know, a biased slant?

 

[abaddon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_ToQuEG1gmQ


Filmmaker Jeff Hays has announced a new documentary called "Bought." It will expose the criminality and corruption of the vaccine industry and Big Pharma,

Another useless yootoob, another crackpot altmed scammer trying to squeeze a few bucks out of the gullible.

Surely you can do better?

 

[Reality Check]

Vaccines are not hard science. There is no way in hell to KNOW the state of a baby's body receiving 8 vaccines in one visit.

That is a lie, Clayton Moore. There are many studies of the health of people after vaccinations.
From Clayton Moore's 19 statements and 115 116 days of ignorance and delusion

Clayton Moore, What is your evidence that any immune system can be "over simulated"?
First asked 10 June 2013 - 18 days and counting

The actual evidence is no, e.g. Increasing Exposure to Antibody-Stimulating Proteins and Polysaccharides in Vaccines Is Not Associated with Risk of Autism (PDF)

Nor does anyone know all the permutations that the immature immune systems of a baby could encounter when jabbed 8 times with vaccines.

Repeating your ignorance does not help, Clayton Moore !
The number of vaccines does not matter.
It is the number of antigens in the vaccines that matters because it is these that set up the immune system to fight disease.
Studies of children after vaccination shows that the number of antigens administered at a time does not have any significant effects.
The fact is that the number of antigens in a normal vaccination schedule have actually decreased over time.

Maybe what science should do is inject volunteers with the non disease materials of each of the 8 vaccines all at once and monitor the recipients reaction.

And remaining in complete denial of the science is ridiculous, Clayton Moore !
No volunteers are needed because scientists have plenty of vaccinated and unvaccinated people to study - millions of them .

What are "non disease materials", Clayton Moore?
This sounds like the ignorant delusion that anti-vaxers have that the preservatives and adjuncts used in vaccines are dangerous.

 

[Reality Check]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_ToQuEG1gmQ

Oh dear, Clayton Moore, the idiocy of arguing by YouTube video !

The description makes it clear that this will be a ignorant, delusional film: "The hidden story about vaccines, autism, drugs and food". There is nothing hidden about vaccines and autism. The science that there is no link between vaccines and autism is reported everywhere.

At least that is a tiny bit better than your usual argument by citing ignorant (and paranoid) crank web sites.


ETA: Bought the Movie confirms the ignorance that will be in this film. I have corrected the lies that he states about Vaccine safety:

• Because vaccines have known harmful side-effects, the US government established the Federal Vaccine Court to protect the vaccine industry and acknowledge and compensate victims fast.
• The official line backed up by scientific evidence is that vaccines do not cause autism - a disorder that the CDC has just reported affects 1 in 32 boys, 6-17 years of age (what has this phone survey result to do with vaccines?).
• The fact is that the Federal Vaccine Court has been quietly settling cases of brain damage (that have never resulted in autism) for many years and these awards have been never been made to cover autism treatments.
• We have exclusive access to those who have won and lost in Vax court and they have agreed to be part of a documentary. They are articulate, knowledgeable, and compelling historians whose medical and scientific opinions can be disregarded.
• These are not “anti-vaccine” people, as evidenced by the fact that the reason they were in vaccine court is because of what happened when they DID vaccinate their children (well duh!).
• The core question is "Why did these families win and yet the test case in the (thousands-strong class action) Autism Omnibus Proceedings - Michelle Cedillo - lose, given the fact that the clinical presentation in these cases was virtually identical?
  The core answer is that these families do not exist - there were no autism cases that won!
• Among those who have agreed to take part are plaintiff's lawyers who fought the winning and losing cases.
  Wow - filmmaker Jeff Hays really knows how to bias a film. These lawyers will support whatever they were paid to support!
• The conclusion is that Michelle Cedillo could not be allowed to win - the consequences for the Medical-Industrial complex are too great.
  The conclusion actually is that filmmaker Jeff Hays is yet another paranoid conspiracy nut who thinks that the drug companies magically control the Federal Vaccine Court !

Then the film is dealt a killer blow by being in an article on the nutcase Age of Autism web site which at least points out more insanity from Jeff Hays - he is going to include the autism quack Andrew Wakefield !
One sign of a anti-vaxer nutcase is that they do not cite sources (as above) So where did this 1 in 32 boys number come from?
It is Changes in Prevalence of Parent-reported Autism Spectrum Disorder in School-aged U.S. Children: 2007 to 2011–2012 (PDF) which is mainly about the changes in reporting, not the rates of autism, e.g. in the conclusion

Together, these findings suggest that the increase in prevalence of parent-reported ASD may have resulted from improved ascertainment of ASD by doctors and other health care professionals in recent years, especially when the symptoms are mild.

This has 3.23% of boys aged 6-17 (0.70 girls, 2.00 both) with ASD.
Note that this is the analysis of phone surveys which are known to be biased.

 

[zooterkin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_ToQuEG1gmQ


Filmmaker Jeff Hays has announced a new documentary called "Bought." It will expose the criminality and corruption of the vaccine industry and Big Pharma,

Educate yourself; if you want to know what's really wrong with the drugs industry, read Ben Goldacre's Bad Pharma.

 

[ComfySlippers]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_ToQuEG1gmQ


Filmmaker Jeff Hays has announced a new documentary called "Bought." It will expose the criminality and corruption of the vaccine industry and Big Pharma,

Looks awesome. A film containing BS from a discredited Quack and lots of clips of Alex Jones and InfoWars. Must all be true.

 

[Dcdrac]

Educate yourself; if you want to know what's really wrong with the drugs industry, read Ben Goldacre's Bad Pharma.

and aslo

Ben Goldacre's other book:

Bad Science

 

[Tomtomkent]

and aslo

Ben Goldacre's other book:

Bad Science

And his Bad Science Blog

 

[Dcdrac]

CM you should actually visit this site

http://www.badscience.net/

Especially this:

http://www.badscience.net/2013/04/how-vaccine-scares-respect-local-cultural-boundaries/

 

[000063]

Reality Check, are you typing out your posts with the questions Clay hasn't answered every time, or do you have some sort of file with the BB code, possibly an auto-updating one?

It seems that literally everything is a conspiracy with CM. Vaccines, 9/11, World War II, the NBA, television dramas about doctors. Wow. I thought that "proof by class action lawyer ads on TV" was compelling, but "proof by Marcus Welby?" Really?

In Clay's case, it's more like "argumentum ad Doogie Howserium".

You seriously think Medical Soap operas are a good source for a discussion on vaccines????

Considering what else has been used as evidence, I wouldn't be surprised.

Do you honestly believe that as many as 37 doses of 14 vaccines by the age of two, and as many as eight vaccines in a single visit could be medically wise?

Do I honestly believe that you're desperately trying to reframe the argument so you don't have to actually prove your assertions?

Yes.

Yes I do.

I'm guessing all your children are near or over 20 and the Australian vaccine schedule they were stuck with was nowhere near as severe/populated as the current US schedule.

You know, most people would actually ask, or look up that information, not just jump for the nearest convenient rationalization(s).

Vaccines are not hard science. There is no way in hell to KNOW the state of a baby's body receiving 8 vaccines in one visit.

Nor does anyone know all the permutations that the immature immune systems of a baby could encounter when jabbed 8 times with vaccines.

Maybe what science should do is inject volunteers with the non disease materials of each of the 8 vaccines all at once and monitor the recipients reaction.

If only there was some sort of scientific method which people could use to determine the effects of vaccines.

 

[Reality Check]

Reality Check, are you typing out your posts with the questions Clay hasn't answered every time, or do you have some sort of file with the BB code, possibly an auto-updating one?

I just copy the last post and update the counts (after checking the Clay is ignoring the questions as usual!)

 

[abaddon]

I just copy the last post and update the counts (after checking the Clay is ignoring the questions as usual!)

CM has tried to claim it is spam. I simply find it to be an illumination of the questions CM can't or won't answer. At this point, CM is running out of places to hide, and is currently trying to shift goalposts/emote the issue. His continuing fail rightly deserves to be highlighted on a skeptical board.


CT types get really uncomfortable when a spotlight is shone on the hard questions.

 

[000063]

The best part is that the softer CTs may claim that the question needs to be answered in "the investigation", tacitly, if indirectly, admitting they don't have the answer. The more hardcore ones usually strawman ("Are you saying that...") or ignore the question entirely. Both types tend to have a studied reluctance to admit that they're wrong about anything, no matter how minor. The really hardcore ones, like Clay, tend to just keep going for the fringe reset, making the same debunked points over and over whenever they think people have forgotten. Some of the worse cases pretty much stop making any direct points whatsoever, just make arguments by implication and sardonism against their opponents and refuse to clarify any of their points.

Thing is, all of these tactics are extremely obvious to anyone with any experience of them. At least one CT has blocked me and others because we kept calling him out on it. And then called him out on it when he tried to dodge and divert.

 

[Clayton Moore]

All the vaccine zombies should get the 8 vaccines in one visit that babies get with the volume of additives increased in proportion to their body size with a baby.


http://www.livestrong.com/article/148862-the-normal-weight-height-of-babies-at-age-2/

Average Weight

Because all children grow at their own pace, one specific weight for a 2 year old is not indicated. Rather, it is important to consider what the average weight range may be, although individual backgrounds should be considered. According to the University of New Hampshire Cooperative Extension, the average weight range for a 2 year old child is between 23 and 35 pounds. At the age of 2, children are beginning to lose baby fat because they are more active and mobile.

Do you honestly believe that as many as 37 doses of 14 vaccines by the age of two, and as many as eight vaccines in a single visit could be medically wise?

Let's use 20 pounds for the baby and 200 pounds for an average 30 year old man. Inject 10 times the vaccine additives into him for each vaccine of a baby's recommended schedule for two years.



http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm

Additives used in the production of vaccines may include

suspending fluid (e.g. sterile water, saline, or fluids containing protein);
preservatives and stabilizers to help the vaccine remain unchanged (e.g. albumin, phenols, and glycine); and
adjuvants or enhancers to help the vaccine to be more effective.

Common substances found in vaccines include:

Aluminum gels or salts of aluminum which are added as adjuvants to help the vaccine stimulate a better response. Adjuvants help promote an earlier, more potent response, and more persistent immune response to the vaccine.

See also: "Aluminum in Vaccines: What you should know"External Web Site Policy Adobe Acrobat print-friendly PDF file [ 579KB / 2 pages] Also available in SpanishExternal Web Site Policy Adobe Acrobat print-friendly PDF file [579KB / 2 pages]
Antibiotics which are added to some vaccines to prevent the growth of germs (bacteria) during production and storage of the vaccine. No vaccine produced in the United States contains penicillin.
Egg protein is found in influenza and yellow fever vaccines, which are prepared using chicken eggs. Ordinarily, persons who are able to eat eggs or egg products safely can receive these vaccines.
Formaldehyde is used to inactivate bacterial products for toxoid vaccines, (these are vaccines that use an inactive bacterial toxin to produce immunity.) It is also used to kill unwanted viruses and bacteria that might contaminate the vaccine during production. Most formaldehyde is removed from the vaccine before it is packaged.
Monosodium glutamate (MSG) and 2-phenoxy-ethanol which are used as stabilizers in a few vaccines to help the vaccine remain unchanged when the vaccine is exposed to heat, light, acidity, or humidity.
Thimerosal is a mercury-containing preservative that is added to vials of vaccine that contain more than one dose to prevent contamination and growth of potentially harmful bacteria.

 

[Dcdrac]

DO you honestly know anything about human biology, medicines, Medical science and medical history CM?

On your current track record the answer to that must be a resounding NO

 

[Alareth]

Do you honestly believe that as many as 37 doses of 14 vaccines by the age of two, and as many as eight vaccines in a single visit could be medically wise?

Are you capable of making an evidence based argument and not continued appeals to emotion?

 

[Reality Check]

All the vaccine zombies should get the 8 vaccines in one visit that babies get with the volume of additives increased in proportion to their body size with a baby.

That is a crazy remark, Clayton Moore:

• There are no such things as "vaccine zombies" except in anti-vaxer delusions.
• The insane delusion that there is some magic about the number 8 (as in 8 vaccines)!

Do you honestly believe that as many as 37 doses of 14 vaccines by the age of two, and as many as eight vaccines in a single visit is not medically wise, Clayton Moore?
We have the actual medical evidence that it is wise (unless you are some monster that wants babies to die horribly of whooping cough, etc. ).
From Clayton Moore's 19 statements and 115 116 120 days of ignorance and delusion

Clayton Moore, What is your evidence that any immune system can be "over simulated"?
First asked 10 June 2013 - 18 days and counting

The actual evidence is no, e.g. Increasing Exposure to Antibody-Stimulating Proteins and Polysaccharides in Vaccines Is Not Associated with Risk of Autism (PDF)

It looks like you have a phobia about some small numbers, Clayton Moore !

ETA

Inject 10 times the vaccine additives into him for each vaccine of a baby's recommended schedule for two years.

And then there is the delusion about additives which is sort of new.
There is the following from Clayton Moore's 19 statements and 115 116 120 days of ignorance and delusion

Clayton Moore, Please cite the scientific evidence for levels of carcinogens in vaccines enough to affect the vaccinated.
First asked 8 April 2013 - 79 days and counting

Clayton Moore,
Please supply a list of the current additives to vaccines that have been shown to harm children.
Or is this just another of the paranoid, ignorant delusions that you have been infected by p) from the crazy web sites that you get your information from?
First asked 2 July 2013 - 0 days and counting.

 

[000063]

All the vaccine zombies should get the 8 vaccines in one visit that babies get with the volume of additives increased in proportion to their body size with a baby.


http://www.livestrong.com/article/148862-the-normal-weight-height-of-babies-at-age-2/






Do you honestly believe that as many as 37 doses of 14 vaccines by the age of two, and as many as eight vaccines in a single visit could be medically wise?

Let's use 20 pounds for the baby and 200 pounds for an average 30 year old man. Inject 10 times the vaccine additives into him for each vaccine of a baby's recommended schedule for two years.



http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm

You are aware that a discussion requires actually responding to people, right?