Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Antony]

To scream takes both energy and air in the lungs. My guess is that at the point Meredith still had both energy and air in her lungs, she didn't feel compelled to scream. If she saw Rudy before he attacked her, she would have been startled, but not terrified, because she knew him. If he came up behind her and grabbed her or flung her down, she would have had the adrenaline to scream but no longer have the lung power. Even if she started to scream, he would have put a stop to it quickly.

More to the point, if Meredith really had been held down and knifed by 3 people as claimed by the PGP, then there's no way she would have been given the chance to make such a scream.

How is it that no-one on the PGP side seems to think it important that the various elements of their case should match up?

 

[Mary_H]

Interesting point. It's funny that scream. Is it the reason Mignini pushed TOD back beyond 11.30? It's funny because a pre-9.30 TOD makes much more sense. It fits with Rudy's story better and all the indicators in the apartment. It affords A & R a reason to be in a Piazza, coming to their senses and ruminating about what to do.

As it is, I just can't see what they are supposed to be doing there, what Meredith is doing and where Rudy is supposed to be. These questions scarcely disappear if you bring TOD forward to sometime between 10 and 10.30 and that requires ditching Nara and Toto or, ahem, amending their evidence, which seems to be allowed down the hole.

Has anyone ever said what time Rudy was seen dancing at the disco?

 

[anglolawyer]

Has anyone ever said what time Rudy was seen dancing at the disco?

After midnight I think but I'm not sure if it was early 02 or 03 Nov or both.

 

[Grinder]

After midnight I think but I'm not sure if it was early 02 or 03 Nov or both.

Surely late on the 1st maybe after midnight and the next night would have been when he didn't stop dancing for moment of respect for Meredith.

 

[Grinder]

To scream takes both energy and air in the lungs. My guess is that at the point Meredith still had both energy and air in her lungs, she didn't feel compelled to scream. If she saw Rudy before he attacked her, she would have been startled, but not terrified, because she knew him. If he came up behind her and grabbed her or flung her down, she would have had the adrenaline to scream but no longer have the lung power. Even if she started to scream, he would have put a stop to it quickly.

No one will ever know unless Rudi or his real accomplices tell all. Fear could make it impossible to utter a sound.

Interesting point. It's funny that scream. Is it the reason Mignini pushed TOD back beyond 11.30? It's funny because a pre-9.30 TOD makes much more sense. It fits with Rudy's story better and all the indicators in the apartment. It affords A & R a reason to be in a Piazza, coming to their senses and ruminating about what to do.

As it is, I just can't see what they are supposed to be doing there, what Meredith is doing and where Rudy is supposed to be. These questions scarcely disappear if you bring TOD forward to sometime between 10 and 10.30 and that requires ditching Nara and Toto or, ahem, amending their evidence, which seems to be allowed down the hole.

The scream and Curatolo and the car from Rome. Mignini could ditch the "ear" witnesses easily as they didn't see anybody but once they accept Curatolo they are in a bind. As you pointed out and most here all agree the other evidence would put the murder before 10.

I wonder why so few of the PGP take the offer to ditch Curatolo and Nara, accept TOD no later than 10 and then put together a scenario?

 

[platonov]

Confusion over headgear.

It was never a serious idea in the first place, as can be gleaned from the final portion of my message: "I am not speaking from a legal perspective, obviously". My original message was a way of expressing dismay over a sentence I see as too light, but Guede's conviction is final, as far as I know. However, Guede has never been tried for burglary/robbery; therefore, I see no impediment to that charge being brought.

I echo the comments of others here, that race has nothing to do with it. I defended black people I thought were wrongfully convicted (Eric Frimpong and the majority of defendants in Tulia, TX), and I have defended white people I thought were wrongfully convicted (Cameron Todd Willingham and Hank Skinner).

Ah I see now - “not speaking from a legal perspective, obviously“ - the mistake is mine.

Humblest apologies – from a distance I sometimes confuse a wig with a white sheet.

 

[anglolawyer]

No one will ever know unless Rudi or his real accomplices tell all. Fear could make it impossible to utter a sound.



The scream and Curatolo and the car from Rome. Mignini could ditch the "ear" witnesses easily as they didn't see anybody but once they accept Curatolo they are in a bind. As you pointed out and most here all agree the other evidence would put the murder before 10.

I wonder why so few of the PGP take the offer to ditch Curatolo and Nara, accept TOD no later than 10 and then put together a scenario?

Poisoned chalice.

 

[Mary_H]

Ah I see now - “not speaking from a legal perspective, obviously“ - the mistake is mine.

Humblest apologies – from a distance I sometimes confuse a wig with a white sheet.

Wow, you have a lot of nerve, platonov. You stay away from this thread for two years and then make a return appearance just to call halides1 a racist? Where do you get the moral authority even to allude to such things?

Are you the one who started the same rumor on PMF, or did you spend your sabbatical over there simply sucking up misinformation?

 

[Grinder]

Poisoned chalice.

But even if they thought gotcha when it was first told that there is a witness that saw them away from the flat, it wasn't long before his actual testimony came out. When it did most of the PIP and neutrals thought he gave them an alibi.

We didn't believe him even before it was revealed that he was a heroin dealer that had testified in the past or that he was on heroin that night.

I still don't see why the PGP or at least some of the those that are not barren of thought wouldn't see the light and say that they need not buy the whole prosecution case.

Why not have the kids run right over to the cottage and do the deed at 9:45 or so? I know that the sex-game would be short but they could also drop that and just say ala TM that they just marched up there to kill her. Rudi met on the way and asked to join in.

 

[anglolawyer]

But even if they thought gotcha when it was first told that there is a witness that saw them away from the flat, it wasn't long before his actual testimony came out. When it did most of the PIP and neutrals thought he gave them an alibi.

We didn't believe him even before it was revealed that he was a heroin dealer that had testified in the past or that he was on heroin that night.

I still don't see why the PGP or at least some of the those that are not barren of thought wouldn't see the light and say that they need not buy the whole prosecution case.

Why not have the kids run right over to the cottage and do the deed at 9:45 or so? I know that the sex-game would be short but they could also drop that and just say ala TM that they just marched up there to kill her. Rudi met on the way and asked to join in.

Marginally less crazy, I agree.

 

[Bill Williams]

Ah I see now - “not speaking from a legal perspective, obviously“ - the mistake is mine.

Humblest apologies – from a distance I sometimes confuse a wig with a white sheet.

Wow, you have a lot of nerve, platonov. You stay away from this thread for two years and then make a return appearance just to call halides1 a racist? Where do you get the moral authority even to allude to such things?

Are you the one who started the same rumor on PMF, or did you spend your sabbatical over there simply sucking up misinformation?

Ok, now I get it. "white sheet" is one of those cultural references that sometimes get lost in another culture!

Perhaps Mr. platonov might want to intersperse these bits of invective with a comprehensive theory of the crime which explains why/how Knox/Sollecito could have been involved in this crime with basically no motive and no forensic trace of them in the murder room?

(Grinder alert: yes, we agree that Massei said, "choice for evil" as their quasi-motive.... the point is I'll bet dollars to crumpets that Mr. platonov has a decidedly non-Judge Massei view of motive.)

While on the subject of no forensics in the murder room pointing at Knox.... Massei invented out of whole cloth this deal of Knox innocently carrying Raffaele's kitchen knife "for protection". Remember, whatever it was Massei did or did not say about motive for the pair, the point is that Judge Massei had no premeditation on their part: for Massei he convicted on a spur of the moment, "choice for evil".

Even Judge Massei then could tell that this begged a rather large question about a rather large knife. Why in the name of all that's holy would Amanda take THAT knife to the cottage when Raffaele already carried knives?

Massei goes to great length, then, to invent out of whole cloth a theory that not even the prosecution had dreamt up in days of being slapped on the head and being told to imagine things.....

But.......... and it's a big one......

In Massei's silence in his 400+ page report, there is not one word of a forensic presence of Knox in the murder room, and the single Y-Haplotype piece of DNA allegedly belonging to Raffaele is not exactly the ONLY evidence you'd expect to be there after they'd restrained her and violently killed her.

Like the fiction of Knox carrying the knife "for protection" to keep intact Massei's "no motive/no premeditation," while still having a vehicle of transport.....

Why no similar fiction about the lack of forensics; at least some explanation about why Rudy's presence (not to mention his admission) is forensically all over the room?

Why not try some explanation in the motivations report? I mean, Massei had no shame about inventing something for the knife's transport?

Does anyone else scratch their head over this?

 

[Bill Williams]

If nothing else, the Massei report helps Amanda and Raffaele remember what they'd done on the night of Nov 1st.

Nothing.

I mean, if there's confusion in their mind if one or the other or both went out that night, I'll bet dollars to crumpets Knox remembers she never ever carried a large kitchen knife for protection!!!

Did anyone at Le Chic tease Knox for carrying it, or even see it when she brought it to work with her?

Does Raffaele know that Knox never once said, "Ok, we're going out. I'd better grab the kitchen knife, because those little dinky things you carry are not very Crocodile Dundee....."

So whatever you think about the pair... Massei's wild theories invented out of whole cloth actually have the reverse function for Amanda and Raffaele. The wild theories serve to remind them of what they're up against.

 

[platonov]

Fr. Spodo Komodo responds

Wow, you have a lot of nerve, platonov. You stay away from this thread for two years and then make a return appearance just to call halides1 a racist? Where do you get the moral authority even to allude to such things?

Are you the one who started the same rumor on PMF, or did you spend your sabbatical over there simply sucking up misinformation?

Now Now Mary H – I never called halides1 a racist (any opinions I may have on the matter would breach the MA as addressing the arguer not the argument).
But I can spot wild racist arguments a mile off – lots of practice on this thread!

Nor have I been away for 2 years – I posted on the CT thread when the SC decision was announced and returned now to check out the ‘response’ to their report.
Have a chat with Bill Williams – he has been keeping tabs on me apparently

I like the PMF fixation is this going to be a rerun of the Doyle algorithm – was that you or London John (or both).
ps Any particular reason why you are so bothered by my addressing certain arguments – we have some history there IIRC

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

Platonov,

If posts are about a convicted murderer who is black, isn't every post susceptible to being interpreted as having racial undertones?

 

[platonov]

did I mention repetitive

Wow, you have a lot of nerve, platonov. You stay away from this thread for two years and then make a return appearance just to call halides1 a racist? Where do you get the moral authority even to allude to such things?

Are you the one who started the same rumor on PMF, or did you spend your sabbatical over there simply sucking up misinformation?

ah – missed this bit.

How much moral authority does one need to respond at any time to ill informed, mendacious, risible - sometime racist, xenophobic or misogynistic - arguments in support of a pair of convicted sex killers??

 

[Mary_H]

Now Now Mary H – I never called halides1 a racist (any opinions I may have on the matter would breach the MA as addressing the arguer not the argument).
But I can spot wild racist arguments a mile off – lots of practice on this thread!

Nor have I been away for 2 years – I posted on the CT thread when the SC decision was announced and returned now to check out the ‘response’ to their report.
Have a chat with Bill Williams – he has been keeping tabs on me apparently

I like the PMF fixation is this going to be a rerun of the Doyle algorithm – was that you or London John (or both).
ps Any particular reason why you are so bothered by my addressing certain arguments – we have some history there IIRC

If I remember correctly, when you posted here before, you did not use the terms groupies or Foakers. These are PMF terms, so it's easy to see you have been influenced by PMF.

Did you drop by simply to bait halides1? Essentially all of your recent posts are about the race argument, which was the focus of a smear campaign on PMF against halides1. It's oddly anachronistic to dredge this campaign up from its grave. Why does it even occur to you to do so?

 

[Mary_H]

ah – missed this bit.

How much moral authority does one need to respond at any time to ill informed, mendacious, risible - sometime racist, xenophobic or misogynistic - arguments in support of a pair of convicted sex killers??

The difference is whether people are sincere about examining the case or whether they are here to pick a fight.


ETA: All right. I'm going back to bed. Don't make me get up again.

 

[Kaosium]

Hello again, Platonov!

Now Now Mary H – I never called halides1 a racist (any opinions I may have on the matter would breach the MA as addressing the arguer not the argument).
But I can spot wild racist arguments a mile off – lots of practice on this thread!

However Halides1 wasn't making a racist argument, it was based on evidence, not race. Your assertion however is is predicated on race, that the heritage of the defendants is what determined Halides1's conclusions. I find that highly unlikely as there's a far better determinant, meaning the evidence of Rudy Guede's past having stolen goods in his possession when found somewhere he'd unlawfully entered, his presence in the room with his DNA on Meredith's purse, and his future after the crime in which he was facing eviction but managed to flee to Germany and survive there without means.

That brings up an interesting way of analyzing the case, perhaps it would serve as a heuristic that taking you behind the curtain on November 5th failed to. How the evidence suggesting Rudy took the money was disregarded in order to serve Mignini's theory and that with no evidence at all Raffaele and Amanda were convicted of the burglary.

Do you understand how that occurred?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the bloody handprint is a time- and identity-stamp

Ah I see now - “not speaking from a legal perspective, obviously“ - the mistake is mine.

Humblest apologies – from a distance I sometimes confuse a wig with a white sheet.

Platonov,

Let me clarify this one more time: Even Rudy (the sole rapist and murderer) deserves protection against double jeopardy. If you have something substantive to say about the SC decision, I may chose to respond to that, but there is nothing more to say about race, as far as I am concerned.

 

[Antony]

ah – missed this bit.

How much moral authority does one need to respond at any time to ill informed, mendacious, risible - sometime racist, xenophobic or misogynistic - arguments in support of a pair of convicted sex killers??

Unsupported accusations of racism and mendacity against people who are better-informed than you are don't give you moral authority.

If your claims had any merit then you would be able to give a clear narrative of the crime that backs them up. The fact that neither you nor any of the PGP are able to do this demonstrates that there is no prosecution case.