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Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Which point are you making? If it's that the police who arrested him were bad guys we already know from Mach this doesn't prove Amanda's interrogators were too. Just as contamination must be proved so must the name, date of birth, home address and DNA profile of each individual cop.

If you are being deep and alluding to the reason Patrick was vague about opening times and till receipts, I hear you loud and clear.

No point, honest.

I thought SH2000 preceded your interest in the case and you might not be familiar with his work.

I do think the tea and cookies meme is blunted somewhat by this snip.

SH2000 was the reporter that upset TM and the gang by pointing out that the washing machine wasn't warm but only damp. For a couple of years the PGP liked to discuss the washing machine running when the police "surprised" A & R. This long put to rest issue is still at the heart of when they called the police non-issue. I have oft wondered why it was an issue at all because they had called Filomena - now I remember the washing machine was the trigger.

I wished I could find HarryRags list of evidence from 2008-9.
 
Courage of your convictions

Our own RoseMontague weighed in on his sentence. I think Guede is guilty of murder, sexual assault (possibly rape), and burglary or robbery. I also would like to see him sued for slander and perhaps charged with calunnia. I am not holding my breath, not when PM Mignini referred to him as "poor Rudy" in his closing remarks.


So, are you dropping the idea of retrying the (currently convicted and incarcerated) black guy for murder as a suitable response to the 2 white killers having their appeal overturned?
 
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No point, honest.

I thought SH2000 preceded your interest in the case and you might not be familiar with his work.

I do think the tea and cookies meme is blunted somewhat by this snip.

SH2000 was the reporter that upset TM and the gang by pointing out that the washing machine wasn't warm but only damp. For a couple of years the PGP liked to discuss the washing machine running when the police "surprised" A & R. This long put to rest issue is still at the heart of when they called the police non-issue. I have oft wondered why it was an issue at all because they had called Filomena - now I remember the washing machine was the trigger.

I wished I could find HarryRags list of evidence from 2008-9.

Who did he write for? I had not heard of him before today.
 
Who did he write for? I had not heard of him before today.

He was writing on PMF but definitely was a lawyer type and was in the court room. He couldn't be too harsh on the ILE because of certain PMF members, but did give good reports until he disappeared.

He was not your typical PGP. I liked reading his reporting and you can look it up on .net.
 
One actually doesn't need paint on one's fingertips. There's a natural "paint" of sorts, called DNA.

When a victim is tightly grasped and being restrained, there is transfer DNA.....

Oooooooops..... none from Amanda Knox or Raffaele Sollecito. Not one iota of transfer DNA. Then again, there's a full set of forensics pointing to one man.

Briars - consistency is a harsh task master.

Oh yes, getting back to memory, because it's come 'round the merry-go-round so many times in the past 6 years.

Amanda and Raffaele are expected to have a perfect memory of stuff happened on a perfectly ordinary night for them. As pointed out upthread, the events of the next morning eclipse those memories. As expected of innocent people, the memories of the preceding 18 hours get overshadowed by the horror of Meredith's dreadful murder.

Consistency alert: the oft-claim is that Knox is selfish. Yet quite naturally she pays no mind to when she had dinner in relation to when the pipe had burst. That, at interrogation, is used against her - but please remember, the whole point of interrogation is not to reconstruct events. It is to get them to confess.

The two students' memory is imperfect.

Yet (Double-standard alert) Nara and Quintavalle don't remember a thing in the weeks after the murder. A year later, Nara herself is collected as a superwitness against Knox and Sollecito. And what does she remember? Well, the scream could have been Oct 31, it could have been Nov 1, she does not remember.

And for that laser-like accuracy of memory, you conclude Knox and Sollecito are guilty! That's how it works in double-standard-land.

To repeat - the blood-curdling scream made such an impression, Nara did "what"? Nothing. She didn't even look at a clock much less call the carabineiri... I mean, that sounds like what you might do on Hallowe'en to me! Acc. to you, she can be forgiven not looking at a clock and establishing the time (nor looking at a calendar to establish the date). I mean, that would be unnatural.

What the heck does the PLE have against calendars? They denied Raffaele one! Aren't they trying to solve this case? Or are they trying to obscure it as much as possible? You decide.

Sorry for the topic drift. But then again it isn't topic drift is it. The topic is to paint one's fingertips to try to vilify two innocents.... which actually WAS done.... the "paint your fingertips" thing, I mean..... it's called transfer-DNA.

O look, squirrel. In your case the squirrel is Italian landscape photos. Take a look at this photo, because it proves beyond doubt that Sollecito and Knox are guilty. I mean, just look at it.

[qimg]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3470/3387327800_3b8cd357b7.jpg[/qimg]​

Hearing from your inner child isn't all that helpful Bill. As far as DNA transfer according to you when 'tightly grasping' how do you reconcile that Guede didn't leave any with the tight gripping of her throat and arms? Sollecito left DNA so please don't say that only Guede's was found.
 
I really don't understand why the PGP people seem to be so racially focused.

It would make no difference to me if he were white, Asian, Indian (eastern or western), black or brown. He is and was black when he left his evidence in blood and all in the murder room with DNA in and on her body.

No matter what color he should have been tried at the same time and he should be forced to take cross examination on the letter and statements he made against A & R. If they had made statements against him as testimony they to should be subject to cross.

Once again, I just don't get the PGP's preoccupation with Rudi's race. It reminds me of the anti-gay Republicans that get caught in the men's room. Are they closet racists?
 
So, are you dropping the idea of retrying the (currently convicted and incarcerated) black guy for murder as a suitable response to the 2 white killers having their appeal overturned?


When all else fails....play the race card I guess. What about Knox being hung out to dry as a foreigner (American)? Rushed to interrogation room and court before her mother could get there and obtain legal advise? This case isnt black and white like your trying to imply. In fact it's more about PLE making a false confession telling the rest of the world case solved.
 
Hearing from your inner child isn't all that helpful Bill. As far as DNA transfer according to you when 'tightly grasping' how do you reconcile that Guede didn't leave any with the tight gripping of her throat and arms? Sollecito left DNA so please don't say that only Guede's was found.

Why do you think that no DNA was found on her neck/face? Do you really think it is credible that so little or no DNA was transferred when so much contact occurred? Not just skin but also sweat.

There is one place that Raf's DNA was alleged to be found. It, as you know, was lost for 47 days and found under a rug after the PLE had been in there several times and most likely without protective clothing and without concern for DNA as the CSI were done. As evidence of that I give you Meredith's clothing that was found in the trash can.

While DNA can last centuries the problem isn't decay but rather where the other alleles came from and how his DNA would only be left on one side of the bra. Had the clasp been collected in a timely fashion with proper protocol followed, the multiple profiles would still be an issue.

Is it possible that the ICSI just bungled the whole thing? Yes. If they did then they just lose. Mach's PGP wants the defense held to strict rules as to when they may request something or protest something yet when it is shown that the PLE screwed up, that is to be excused and we are to move on with the hunt trial.

The PGP point to Filomena's room not having Rudi's DNA or prints as proof he didn't break-in but think Amanda's total absence and Raf's nearly total absence in the murder room is proof of nothing.
 
Hearing from your inner child isn't all that helpful Bill. As far as DNA transfer according to you when 'tightly grasping' how do you reconcile that Guede didn't leave any with the tight gripping of her throat and arms? Sollecito left DNA so please don't say that only Guede's was found.

Ack - of all the insults aimed at someone, that is my favourite. Can I use it?

I am not sure I explain it. What needs to be explained, which I don't think you've done, is how nothing in the room belongs to Knox.... and there's Rudy's forensic profile is there!?

My inner child is enjoying the merry-go-round we're one. This is always asked and never answered.
 
Of course they do – are you not familiar with this site.

However why do you ask ? Do you hope that JREFF will release member’s details to fans of a convicted sex killer?
For what reason – because the member in Q is deconstructing racist groupie arguments?

I certainly hope not, comrade :eek: – you can ask here at Forum Mgt and get back to me.

"Racists groupie arguments"? But I am glad it is on file with JREF. That's all. Nothing more than that. Chillax.
 
platonov said:
So, are you dropping the idea of retrying the (currently convicted and incarcerated) black guy for murder as a suitable response to the 2 white killers having their appeal overturned?

Of course they do – are you not familiar with this site.

However why do you ask ? Do you hope that JREFF will release member’s details to fans of a convicted sex killer?
For what reason – because the member in Q is deconstructing racist groupie arguments?

I certainly hope not, comrade :eek: – you can ask here at Forum Mgt and get back to me.

It would be an exaggeration to say that platonov has set a record for dropping Guilter PR propaganda points into only a couple of posts.

What is of interest these days is how the virtual engines of the PR propaganda, the UK tabloids, are now reversing themselves, if eben platonov or Briars is not. My conspiratorial little mind completely believes that the Mirror, Sun, and particularly The Daily Mail had amassed a warchest for what probably even they assumed would be the 26 March 2013 confirmation of the acquittals. Then it would have been open season on lawsuits against them - I just cannot fathom that the Daily Mail would NOT amass a warchest with the PR campain for gult they waged in 2007-'08 etc. (Even to the point of on Oct 3, 2011, briefly posting a story that Knox had had her guilt confirmed by the Hellmann court, complete with her slumping in her chair and her family quietly weeping in the gallery! I mean, THAT'S prepackaged propaganda!!!! The Daily Mail editor in charge that day testified about this at the Leveson Inquiry!)

Yet... with warchest in place, ready to cut a cheque to everyone who they've slandered with the prepackaged slanders that platonov now knows off by heart..... they actually are vinficated by the ISC in March 2013.... but then they go all innocentatii on us!

...... Why? Why are the tabloids reversing themselves, even in the face of what can only be assumed to be a stunning vindication of their vilification PR campaign by the ISC in March? I mean, the Daily Mail was right! It was a sex-game-gone-wrong in all it's headline grabbing luridness? At least according to the ISC.

What does the Daily Mail know that us way, way up in the bleachers do not? You'd think that many now in the UK tabloid press were on the payroll of Marriott in Seattle, or the FOA.... or heaven's to betsy, Bruce Fisher!

And.............. they already have their warchest in place to pay for the excesses of their PR campaign for guilt.

I'll give platonov and Briars one thing. I've never really understood what was going on. As AngloLawyer squeezed out of me a week or so ago, I am now Owe-for-10 in predicting what will happen before it happens.

Anyone want me to just shut up? Or would I make a good reverse barometer?
 
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not a black-and-white issue

So, are you dropping the idea of retrying the (currently convicted and incarcerated) black guy for murder as a suitable response to the 2 white killers having their appeal overturned?
It was never a serious idea in the first place, as can be gleaned from the final portion of my message: "I am not speaking from a legal perspective, obviously". My original message was a way of expressing dismay over a sentence I see as too light, but Guede's conviction is final, as far as I know. However, Guede has never been tried for burglary/robbery; therefore, I see no impediment to that charge being brought.

I echo the comments of others here, that race has nothing to do with it. I defended black people I thought were wrongfully convicted (Eric Frimpong and the majority of defendants in Tulia, TX), and I have defended white people I thought were wrongfully convicted (Cameron Todd Willingham and Hank Skinner).
 
What is of interest these days is how the virtual engines of the PR propaganda, the UK tabloids, are now reversing themselves, if eben platonov or Briars is not. My conspiratorial little mind completely believes that the Mirror, Sun, and particularly The Daily Mail had amassed a warchest for what probably even they assumed would be the 26 March 2013 confirmation of the acquittals. Then it would have been open season on lawsuits against them - I just cannot fathom that the Daily Mail would NOT amass a warchest with the PR campain for gult they waged in 2007-'08 etc. (Even to the point of on Oct 3, 2011, briefly posting a story that Knox had had her guilt confirmed by the Hellmann court, complete with her slumping in her chair and her family quietly weeping in the gallery! I mean, THAT'S prepackaged propaganda!!!! The Daily Mail editor in charge that day testified about this at the Leveson Inquiry!)

Yet... with warchest in place, ready to cut a cheque to everyone who they've slandered with the prepackaged slanders that platonov now knows off by heart..... they actually are vinficated by the ISC in March 2013.... but then they go all innocentatii on us!

...... Why? Why are the tabloids reversing themselves, even in the face of what can only be assumed to be a stunning vindication of their vilification PR campaign by the ISC in March? I mean, the Daily Mail was right! It was a sex-game-gone-wrong in all it's headline grabbing luridness? At least according to the ISC.

What does the Daily Mail know that us way, way up in the bleachers do not? You'd think that many now in the UK tabloid press were on the payroll of Marriott in Seattle, or the FOA.... or heaven's to betsy, Bruce Fisher!

It's ironic, but easy to understand. Tabloids manipulate public opinion, but not randomly. They follow the way the wind is blowing at the time - so if the Sun and the Mail are now criticising the ISC, then it's a sign that the case has completely unravelled in ways that were not as obvious in 2007-2008.

(oh, and "slander" is spoken defamation, btw; you mean "libel" in the above)
 
dumb point

from pmf.org

The Bard 29 Jun 2013, 22:02

Raffaele's interview is extraordinary. Talk about cut and paste. Don't either of them think to use more complex language, or vary the way they express themselves? Take a risk and say something genuinely explanatory? It's the same old same old. They must have had those talking points drummed into them. The answer to the alibi question is pathetic.​

Well of course it is "the same old same old". How possibly would it be anything else?
 
What a house!

There is a house in Perugia, Italy that seems to be unique.
There are not ANY apartments, flats nor houses next door.

If you close up all the doors+windows in it,
the neighbors hundreds of feet away CAN STILL HEAR YOU!



I have to assume that,
with a buncha 20 year old students living+chillin'there,
havin' friends over+partying there,
the the noise racket musta been really hard on the neighbors...

Young adults laughing,
goofing around, shouting, heck maybe even a scream, 2 or 3...

Darn them kids!
Can't they keep quite!?!

Surely the cops had been called previously, many times over the years to try and help maintain some sorta peace+quiet for the neighbors who lived some 500(?) feet away, right?
:boggled:
 
...... Why? Why are the tabloids reversing themselves, even in the face of what can only be assumed to be a stunning vindication of their vilification PR campaign by the ISC in March? I mean, the Daily Mail was right! It was a sex-game-gone-wrong in all it's headline grabbing luridness? At least according to the ISC.

What does the Daily Mail know that us way, way up in the bleachers do not? You'd think that many now in the UK tabloid press were on the payroll of Marriott in Seattle, or the FOA.... or heaven's to betsy, Bruce Fisher!

Further to my previous, maybe we both posted too soon. Today's Mail on Sunday has this. Have they only just read Amanda's book?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ud-night-stands-drug-use-says-Foxy-Knoxy.html

In which Amanda's "I was proud of myself for having a no-strings-attached consensual encounter" quoted in the text becomes "I'm proud of my one-night-stands" in the headline.

And it continues to be the case that comments defending Amanda and Raff on Mail articles get heavy negative scores from site visitors, while those abusing them get heavy pluses.
 
There is a house in Perugia, Italy that seems to be unique.
There are not ANY apartments, flats nor houses next door.

If you close up all the doors+windows in it,
the neighbors hundreds of feet away CAN STILL HEAR YOU!



I have to assume that,
with a buncha 20 year old students living+chillin'there,
havin' friends over+partying there,
the the noise racket musta been really hard on the neighbors...

Young adults laughing,
goofing around, shouting, heck maybe even a scream, 2 or 3...

Darn them kids!
Can't they keep quite!?!

Surely the cops had been called previously, many times over the years to try and help maintain some sorta peace+quiet for the neighbors who lived some 500(?) feet away, right?
:boggled:

It's funny -- a lot of us, like Nara Capezzali, assume that it is common for people to scream really loudly when they are scared or attacked. I wonder if it is really true. Women get killed all the time, but you never read about any of them screaming. Usually, they just don't show up at work and then somebody goes looking for them. Sometimes neighbors hear shouts or the sounds of people arguing in the house or apartment next door. But they never report hearing any blood-curdling screams, except, of course, in movies.

To scream takes both energy and air in the lungs. My guess is that at the point Meredith still had both energy and air in her lungs, she didn't feel compelled to scream. If she saw Rudy before he attacked her, she would have been startled, but not terrified, because she knew him. If he came up behind her and grabbed her or flung her down, she would have had the adrenaline to scream but no longer have the lung power. Even if she started to scream, he would have put a stop to it quickly.
 
Further to my previous, maybe we both posted too soon. Today's Mail on Sunday has this. Have they only just read Amanda's book?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ud-night-stands-drug-use-says-Foxy-Knoxy.html

In which Amanda's "I was proud of myself for having a no-strings-attached consensual encounter" quoted in the text becomes "I'm proud of my one-night-stands" in the headline.

And it continues to be the case that comments defending Amanda and Raff on Mail articles get heavy negative scores from site visitors, while those abusing them get heavy pluses.

It looks like that's from April, Antony. It was nice of them to add this at the end of the article:

A third suspect, Rudy Guede, whose DNA and bloody footprints were found all over the crime scene, is serving a 16-year prison sentence for Miss Kercher’s murder.
 
It's funny -- a lot of us, like Nara Capezzali, assume that it is common for people to scream really loudly when they are scared or attacked. I wonder if it is really true. Women get killed all the time, but you never read about any of them screaming. Usually, they just don't show up at work and then somebody goes looking for them. Sometimes neighbors hear shouts or the sounds of people arguing in the house or apartment next door. But they never report hearing any blood-curdling screams, except, of course, in movies.

To scream takes both energy and air in the lungs. My guess is that at the point Meredith still had both energy and air in her lungs, she didn't feel compelled to scream. If she saw Rudy before he attacked her, she would have been startled, but not terrified, because she knew him. If he came up behind her and grabbed her or flung her down, she would have had the adrenaline to scream but no longer have the lung power. Even if she started to scream, he would have put a stop to it quickly.

Interesting point. It's funny that scream. Is it the reason Mignini pushed TOD back beyond 11.30? It's funny because a pre-9.30 TOD makes much more sense. It fits with Rudy's story better and all the indicators in the apartment. It affords A & R a reason to be in a Piazza, coming to their senses and ruminating about what to do.

As it is, I just can't see what they are supposed to be doing there, what Meredith is doing and where Rudy is supposed to be. These questions scarcely disappear if you bring TOD forward to sometime between 10 and 10.30 and that requires ditching Nara and Toto or, ahem, amending their evidence, which seems to be allowed down the hole.
 
It looks like that's from April, Antony.

You're quite right. I guess didn't look at the dates properly and registered "30/6" when it was "30/4". (That's "6/30" and "4/30" to you odd people across the water.)
It was nice of them to add this at the end of the article:

A third suspect, Rudy Guede, whose DNA and bloody footprints were found all over the crime scene, is serving a 16-year prison sentence for Miss Kercher’s murder.

Yes, the articles - or at least the headlines - are a bit of an ambivalent mix.
 
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