The state of FL v. George Zimmerman

[TheL8Elvis]

John Goode on the stand now, says he saw 2 people "tussling" on the ground and moving slightly from the grass to the concrete. Says person wearing dark clothing was on top, and the person under had lighter red clothing. Person on bottom also had a lighter complexion than the person on top. Person on top was straddling person on bottom, person on top had "arm movements going downward" "multiple times". Person on bottom was yelling for help.

He claims he doesn't know who yelled for help, but thinks it was the person on the bottom. Also states because the voice came directly to him, if it was person on top, it would have echoed off the building.

He used the term MMA to describe the situation because of the person on top in a straddle position, and because of the arm/shoulder movement.

The person on top is wearing dark shirt, the person on bottom light/red shirt.

He was reluctant to confirm 100% on things, but he certainly implied TM was on top, straddling and punching, and GZ was on the bottom, yelling for help.

This is a yet another great witness for the defense, basically confirming GZ story.

 

[Freddy]

Also, when the defendant invokes an affirmative defense, the burden of evidence shifts to the defendant to make that case, but usually the standard for that burden is not as high as "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Only Ohio and South Carolina place the burden of proof on a defendant claiming self defense. In all other states, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was not self defense.

 

[Unabogie]

He claims he doesn't know who yelled for help, but thinks it was the person on the bottom. Also states because the voice came directly to him, if it was person on top, it would have echoed off the building.

He used the term MMA to describe the situation because of the person on top in a straddle position, and because of the arm/shoulder movement.

The person on top is wearing dark shirt, the person on bottom light/red shirt.

He was reluctant to confirm 100% on things, but he certainly implied TM was on top, straddling and punching, and GZ was on the bottom, yelling for help.

This is a yet another great witness for the defense, basically confirming GZ story.

He never heard any of Zimmerman's ridiculous dialog, never saw a single punch being thrown, and never hear slamming or punching. And he looked out for a maximum 10 seconds. He didn't see the shot.

I don't see how this guy "basically confirms" unless you want to use "basically" as a weasel word. He does not confirm Zimmerman's story of being slammed on concrete over and over, suffocated, and hit 20-30 times in the face.

Feel free to provide snippets of testimony that you feel support this.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

The only common law standard has is to present "some" evidence. Zimmrman's already done that.

Yep. I don't know if Florida specifies anything different for the standard of proof for affirmative defenses, but when they do, most states say "preponderance of the evidence" or something like that.

The state will have to disprove justification BARD.

And that makes sense. Even though the burden for the affirmative defense goes to the defendant, there's still a presumption of innocence, in a way. Blackstone's formula, kind of thing. To convict someone of a crime--especially one like murder--we've got to be pretty certain.

The prosecution has its work cut out for it. It's Zimmerman's case to lose, I think. Barring anything unexpected, I predict he'll be acquitted.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Only Ohio and South Carolina place the burden of proof on a defendant claiming self defense. In all other states, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was not self defense.

I think you're mistaken. It's an affirmative defense. Angela Corey even referred to it as an "affirmative defense" available in this case to the media fairly early on.

If a defendant invokes self-defense, but offers no evidence at all to support it, he will be convicted. The reason is the "affirmative" part of "affirmative defense" means the defendant is affirming that he did what is alleged. If he offers any evidence, as Cylinder points out, the state has to refute it beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[mikedenk]

Some of these state witnesses don't seem to be very helpful for the prosecution.

Did the prosecution call them up just to get their harmful testimony out of the way, to avoid it being fresh when the jury deliberates? Is that a common tactic?

Can the defense call them up again as one of their witnesses?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

He never heard any of Zimmerman's ridiculous dialog,

And ? RJ (witness 8) testified to the dialogue exchange yesterday.

never saw a single punch being thrown,

No, he won't testify "100%", but he says he used the term MMA because it appeared to him that TM was raining down punches on GZ.

He has made a clear distinction that it appeared to him to be that way, but he can't say 100% for sure that is what was happening.

and never hear slamming or punching. And he looked out for a maximum 10 seconds. He didn't see the shot.

That's all correct, but how does any of that help the prosecution ?

I don't see how this guy "basically confirms" unless you want to use "basically" as a weasel word. He does not confirm Zimmerman's story of being slammed on concrete over and over, suffocated, and hit 20-30 times in the face.

It confirms GZ story that: TM was on top of GZ, hitting him, the fight moved to the sidewalk, and that GZ was yelling for help.

Again, how does he help the prosecution ?

 

[Unabogie]

And ? RJ (witness 8) testified to the dialogue exchange yesterday.



No, he won't testify "100%", but he says he used the term MMA because it appeared to him that TM was raining down punches on GZ.

He has made a clear distinction that it appeared to him to be that way, but he can't say 100% for sure that is what was happening.



That's all correct, but how does any of that help the prosecution ?



It confirms GZ story that: TM was on top of GZ, hitting him, the fight moved to the sidewalk, and that GZ was yelling for help.

Again, how does he help the prosecution ?

He just said he could not see any hitting.

None.

And Serino said "ground and pound", not him.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

He just said he could not see any hitting.

None.

And Serino said "ground and pound", not him.

10:20 a.m. ET: O'Mara asked Good to define "ground and pound."

"It's usually when someone is on top in a mounted position I believe. In the dominate position, but like I said the person on the bottum is able to throw punches, back, but I did not see any of that," said Good.

10:17 a.m. ET: O'Mara asked Good if the person on top in Mixed Martial Arts stance. Good said at first he thought it was what he calls a "ground and pound."

10:14 a.m. ET: O'Mara got down on the ground and demonstrated how the person on top looked to Good.

Sometimes in life, people hear what they want to hear, instead of what was said.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

And ? RJ (witness 8) testified to the dialogue exchange yesterday.



No, he won't testify "100%", but he says he used the term MMA because it appeared to him that TM was raining down punches on GZ.

He has made a clear distinction that it appeared to him to be that way, but he can't say 100% for sure that is what was happening.



That's all correct, but how does any of that help the prosecution ?



It confirms GZ story that: TM was on top of GZ, hitting him, the fight moved to the sidewalk, and that GZ was yelling for help.

Again, how does he help the prosecution ?

He just said he could not see any hitting.

None.

And Serino said "ground and pound", not him.

Perhaps this isn't the proper thread for it, but you've avoided describing how this helps the prosecution, and you haven't addressed that even though he won't say for certain, he is telling both MOM and BDLR it looked like TM was hitting GZ, even though he could not see the fists. Do you think this is helpful to the prosecution ?

On re-direct, BDLR is trying to accuse his own witness of lying. Again, how helpful is that ?

And I didn't say anything about "ground and pound" ... how does that matter ?

 

[Unabogie]

Sometimes in life, people hear what they want to hear, instead of what was said.

You're new to the case. The term "ground and pound" came from Detective Serino, Goode adopted it, and O'Mara used that to great effect.

Then Goode just told the jury he didn't see a single punch thrown.

 

[Unabogie]

On re-direct, BDLR is trying to accuse his own witness of lying. Again, how helpful is that ?

No he didn't. He was getting him to say that his initial statements were incomplete and that his later clarifications are more important. Now O'Mara is trying to get him to stick to his first impression.

The fact remains that this witness did not see a single punch thrown.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Perhaps this isn't the proper thread for it, but you've avoided describing how this helps the prosecution, and you haven't addressed that even though he won't say for certain, he is telling both MOM and BDLR it looked like TM was hitting GZ, even though he could not see the fists. Do you think this is helpful to the prosecution ?

On re-direct, BDLR is trying to accuse his own witness of lying. Again, how helpful is that ?

And I didn't say anything about "ground and pound" ... how does that matter ?

Looks like another rough day for the prosecution.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

No he didn't. He was getting him to say that his initial statements were incomplete and that his later clarifications are more important. Now O'Mara is trying to get him to stick to his first impression.

The fact remains that this witness did not see a single punch thrown.

I will resign myself to the fact you won't address how this witness helps the prosecution.

And of course, this witness called 911 because he "did not see a single punch thrown". I'm sure he convinced the jury what he saw was TM giving GZ a massage.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

You're new to the case. The term "ground and pound" came from Detective Serino, Goode adopted it, and O'Mara used that to great effect.

Then Goode just told the jury he didn't see a single punch thrown.

It makes no difference where he got the term. He used it.

 

[Unabogie]

I will resign myself to the fact you won't address how this witness helps the prosecution.

No witnesses saw any punches being thrown. No witnesses saw any head smashing on concrete. No witness heard "help me restrain this guy". No witness heard "you're gonna die tonight ************". No witness saw them swap positions after the shot. Witnesses saw Zimmerman get up immediately after the shot and said "the guy who was on top got up".

Not even MMA John supported any of Zimmerman's story, aside from the fact that they were in a fight, which was not in dispute.

There are no more witnesses to the crime that the defense can throw out there who will testify differently.

Therefore, the only person who claims all of this is the defendant. Without Zimmerman testifying, no one case support the claims he made to the police.

That's why this helps the state's case.

 

[Cylinder]

You're new to the case. The term "ground and pound" came from Detective Serino, Goode adopted it, and O'Mara used that to great effect.

Then Goode just told the jury he didn't see a single punch thrown.

Once again, the YouTube video will be posted this afternoon and we'll be able to find the timestamp and review it. Good said he saw arm movement that looked like blows being rained down on the person he believes was Zimmerman but never saw fist meet flesh because of the darkness.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

John Goode is finished.

Judge Nelson does not want to start on the next witness, so lunch recess until 1:00.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

John Goode is finished.

Judge Nelson does not want to start on the next witness, so lunch recess until 1:00.

Did you mean to say "the prosecution"?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

11:23 a.m. ET: Good said no matter what statement he gave police he has always said the person wearing red (Zimmerman was wearing a similar color) was on the bottom.

This helps the prosecution. I'm not sure how, but I bet it does.