How much should one struggle?

[Undesired Walrus]

I can't remember what percentage it was, but in response to the 'we are the 99%', a group of conservative minded Americans said that 'we are the X%', proceeding to demonstrate how they had struggled through life to get were they were, presumably successful.

The reality of 'struggle' seems to be popular in the conservative movement today, the idea that holding down two jobs at the same time as living with your parents and studying for an exam is noble, and that the degree of struggle that this hypothetical person endured should be normalised, and not fought against by governments.

Then there is the lefts conception of 'struggle', with the old phrase 'pulling yourself up by your bootstraps' expanded upon by the left as being a noble action, but there must be some government assistance to help you pull up those bootstraps. So, on the left, there is a certain expectation that one has to struggle to get where they are.

So what kind of struggle do we expect in life? To what extent do we expect people to struggle at the same time as them sacrifycing their personal liberties? What is 'noble' and what is too far?

 

[marplots]

It's relative. I expect you to struggle as much as I do. Except, since I don't live in your head, I have no idea just how difficult it feels for you to get out of bed in the morning. So it's all a guess.

 

[Jimbo07]

It's relative. I expect you to struggle as much as I do. Except, since I don't live in your head, I have no idea just how difficult it feels for you to get out of bed in the morning. So it's all a guess.

Yes, and I assume that I have it the worst. Thus, if I don't perceive you to be struggling as hard or harder than me, I assume you have it easy. You also probably have a sense of entitlement...

... You know, money for nothing and your chicks for free, or something

 

[fuelair]

Just enough but not too much and a little off the top.........

 

[bobwtfomg]

The reality of 'struggle' seems to be popular in the conservative movement today

So we're not talking about the class struggle then

 

[CapelDodger]

Then there is the lefts conception of 'struggle', with the old phrase 'pulling yourself up by your bootstraps' expanded upon by the left as being a noble action, but there must be some government assistance to help you pull up those bootstraps.

The left's perception is that communal effort is necessary, from which derives the conception of government as the agency through which the effort is co-ordinated and implemented.

So, on the left, there is a certain expectation that one has to struggle to get where they are.

Meritocracy is generally acceptable across the left (all but a crazed fringe, really). Inherited wealth and social status is not.

The left also recognises that inherited wealth and social status have only been supplanted with a great deal of struggle, the blood and treasure of which I am most appreciative.

So what kind of struggle do we expect in life? To what extent do we expect people to struggle at the same time as them sacrifycing their personal liberties? What is 'noble' and what is too far?

Give me a world where noble sacrifice is not only unnecessary but the desire for it is bizarre.

I happen to like meritocracy, and did from my earliest years. I think it's in my nature, but who can really be sure about such things? Perhaps had I been born to an inheritance I'd have turned out differently.

 

[CapelDodger]

You also probably have a sense of entitlement...

"Entitled" is the cutting word today, it seems to me, and not just in the UK.

99% is the cutting number.

 

[CapelDodger]

So we're not talking about the class struggle then

Heaven forfend. We have much to thank the 19thCE for, but class confict as a politico-economic theory of history and future is at best a mixed blessing. It had its place and time, no doubt, as does flint in industrial history, but it's as relevant outside it as libertarianism (an alternative theory from the same mid-century).

 

[a_unique_person]

I think it's a simple matter of effort leads to reward. The more effort, the bigger the reward. For example, a billionaire works at over ten thousand times harder in a year than I do.

 

[BStrong]

I can't help but think of the old timers (some still around) that had two jobs and did work on the side to support their family - I'm serious - two fulltime jobs and guys that did terrazzo tile work on the side.

My father drilled it into me that unless your father is A.P. Giannini, you need to have more than one job, and/or more than just one job skill. He was a fulltime LEO, had a private patrol business and had the first indoor rifle range/gun shop in the area, all at one time.

What I see in some instances of people discussing this in the rw is the conceit that "they" did it all on there own and the people on public assistance etc. are somehow living high on the hog on "their" hard earned tax dollars.

 

[Pvt. Stash]

Meritocracy is generally acceptable across the left (all but a crazed fringe, really). Inherited wealth and social status is not.

Ok so the rewards garnered by an individual of merit for his own labor is "generally" acceptable... thats good to know... (not sure why its not ALWAYS acceptable, provided its all above-board legal)...

And, being His rewards, what does it matter if he gives it to his children? ( your claim that Inherited wealth = "not acceptable" )

Its nobody's business what he does with HIS money, its HIS.

 

[marplots]

Ok so the rewards garnered by an individual of merit for his own labor is "generally" acceptable... thats good to know... (not sure why its not ALWAYS acceptable, provided its all above-board legal)...

And, being His rewards, what does it matter if he gives it to his children? ( your claim that Inherited wealth = "not acceptable" )

Its nobody's business what he does with HIS money, its HIS.

If you accept that he shouldn't be hiring assassins to kill off his rivals, you've decided that not all uses of the money are equivalent and some have a moral dimension. Granting that, it's now a matter of where the line should be drawn, since the universal fails.

Further, if we think earning the money and building wealth is noble, then does removing that opportunity from the inheritor count as harming them?

 

[Megalodon]

Ok so the rewards garnered by an individual of merit for his own labor is "generally" acceptable... thats good to know... (not sure why its not ALWAYS acceptable, provided its all above-board legal)...

And, being His rewards, what does it matter if he gives it to his children? ( your claim that Inherited wealth = "not acceptable" )

Its nobody's business what he does with HIS money, its HIS.

Social status based on personal merit is acceptable. Social status based on being related to someone who did something worthwhile is ridiculous.

In the same way, self-made men that started their own businesses with only the shirt on their backs and a couple of millions of daddy's financial backing don't deserve more social status than a store manager that made it out of a slum.

And as for the inheritance business, we can say it's his money to give away, but it's the state's business to make sure that capital isn't hoarded by a small financial elite, and avoid the formation of a plutocracy, by applying inheritance taxes.

 

[Mark6]

Ok so the rewards garnered by an individual of merit for his own labor is "generally" acceptable... thats good to know... (not sure why its not ALWAYS acceptable, provided its all above-board legal)...

And, being His rewards, what does it matter if he gives it to his children? ( your claim that Inherited wealth = "not acceptable" )

It matters because inheritance makes the mockery of the whole "equality of opportunity" thing. A child of a millionaire has very different opportunities than a child of a janitor.

If you are serious about equality of opportunity you should support inheritance tax of 100%, all of it invested into education -- for everyone. Make everyone start out equal, with exactly same opportunities.

Note: I realize this would never work in practice because the drive to help one's children is very strong in humans, and people with money will always find ways around such tax to give their children a leg up.

Totally OT: One detail in Orwell's "1984" which struck me as totally unrealistic is the absence of such drive among Oceania's elite. Quote from memory: "Inner Party would be quite comfortable with next generation of Inner Party being recruited entirely from Proles." Yeah, right.

 

[Cain]

Since becoming a Calvinist, I've realized that personal fortunes are commensurate with hard work and faith. What's actually surprising are the number of secret Christians who must be out there, especially in Qatar.

 

[LSSBB]

I think it's a simple matter of effort leads to reward. The more effort, the bigger the reward. For example, a billionaire works at over ten thousand times harder in a year than I do.

There are many kinds of effort, and some kinds of effort have better rewards than other kinds. Ditch digging is hard work, doesn't pay. Lining up investors in a solid business plan and getting an idea from concept to fruition is hard work in a different way, and potentially much more rewarding.

 

[shuize]

The amount of struggle necessary will vary according to one's starting point. However, based on my own experience, I still strongly believe one can lift oneself out of poverty if motivated to do so.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

The amount of struggle necessary will vary according to one's starting point. However, based on my own experience, I still strongly believe one can lift oneself out of poverty if motivated to do so.

But should it be expected that one does so?

 

[shuize]

But should it be expected that one does so?

I think you are overestimating the amount of "struggle" expected of young people. From what I've seen from some of my lazy relatives, I think a little more effort could reasonably be expected. I have three able-bodied cousins ranging in age from their mid-twenties to their mid-thirties who all still live at home and have probably worked a total of 6 months between them. Inexplicably, their parents continue to support them even though none appear willing to look for work or participate in any sort of job training. It is a bit like watching a couple of slow motion train wrecks as none of the parents involved have been very responsible with their own money and are now scrambling to figure out how in the world they are going to be able to retire much less continue to support their adult children.

 

[seayakin]

The amount of struggle necessary will vary according to one's starting point. However, based on my own experience, I still strongly believe one can lift oneself out of poverty if motivated to do so.

This is still strongly influenced by a certain skill set and having a golden moment of opportunity. If you do not have any innate intelligence or savvy to seize whatever few opportunities may exist, you will not ever work hard enough to pull yourself up. Even then, the opportunities to pull yourself up may be so few and infrequent that it is more like winning the lottery then dependent on how hard you work.