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Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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I'm looking I'm looking. But ask youself this. What would Knox be doing in a store (where Q. said she didn't buy anything) unless they needed more bleach - esp. at the time of day Q. didn't er, saw her?

There's already bleach handy to the pair? And a mop. I mean, isn't the whole reason to make a big deal about the mop and pail to imply that it was used in a clean-up? Yet, Massei says nothing forensically interesting was found in the mop either.
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Which is remarkable considering they took the mop from the hall closet into Meredith's bedroom. Imagine you are on trial with your life hanging in the balance and you see that. Imagine how easy that could have created more incriminating evidence. Was it intended to? Did it? What was the purpose?

To Matt:

I initially presumed Mignini and the cops were honest. Based on the mountain of evidence to the contrary I have concluded Mignii and a few of the cops are not.
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I would like to no more about this.

I do not find it odd that a prosecutor would visit the crime scene, though.

I am not challenging you here or saying you are wrong, but where do we draw these facts from?

Here are a couple important paragraphs from a Rolling Stone article. First, Mignini's job description:

"Mignini's official title is "public minister," a hybrid of detective and district attorney. This makes Mignini less a prosecution lawyer than a Grand Inquisitor. He leads the investigation, giving directions to the police under his care, and serves as lead prosecutor during the trial. This arrangement means that the police often find themselves under professional obligation to look for evidence that supports the prosecutor's hypotheses. This is especially true in high-profile cases, when there is enormous pressure to explain quickly what exactly happened."

Second, his biggest regret:

"When I ask Mignini whether he regrets any decisions he made during the Kercher case, he will name only one. It was the very first decision that he made. When he arrived at the crime scene he asked the chief forensics expert, Patrizia Stefanoni, whether she had taken Kercher's body temperature, a reliable indicator of time of death. Stefanoni, Mignini says, was worried that doing so might contaminate the body and advised that they wait until other testing had been done. The temperature was not taken until November 3rd, at which point the death was set between 8 p.m. and 4 a.m. The failure to make a more exact estimation proved critical. If Kercher died before 9:30 p.m., Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito would have had an alibi: They were seen at Sollecito's apartment at 8:45, and Sollecito's computer showed activity as late as 9:10."

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/culture...ghtmare-of-amanda-knox-20110627#ixzz2X3h4ZWY9
Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook
 
My reaction to that is that it's all very well talking about what is "unlikely", but you have to make your conclusions based on what has actually happened. What I see in this discussion is PGP (and even judges) asserting or implying that such-and-such interpretation of the evidence is "unlikely", so as to back up their own favoured interpretation which is even more unlikely.

IAC, I don't necessarily agree with your assessment of what is "unlikely". Amanda reports an irrational hostility towards her, from Monica Napoleoni right from their first meeting on November 2, when she (Amanda) became confused over whether the faeces was still in the toilet.

Not only that, but the course of the investigation here follows a pattern visible in police behaviour whenever it has led to a wrongful prosecution. It's a conscious or unconscious effort to "solve the crime" the easy way, by picking out suspects for arbitrary reasons from the people they are already in contact with - instead of taking a step back and telling themselves that the real culprit has almost certainly made himself scarce.

That's why I don't go along with the claim that statistics show that murders are usually committed by people close to the victim (read: "people convicted of murder are usually someone close to the victim"); these statistics are going to be distorted by the very fact that police typically focus on exactly these people.

Statistics may be skewed to some extent by wrongful convictions, but it's safe to say that most homicides involve a perpetrator who kills a specific individual for a specific reason. Unfortunately, that fact creates an automatic bias on the part of police, so they sometimes don't recognize homicides that don't fit that pattern. That is why John and Patsy Ramsey came under suspicion to the point where many people still think they killed their daughter. It is why Michael Morton was convicted when his wife was killed by a total stranger.

I remember a couple of years ago, there was a case in Georgia where a woman went missing. Her car was found abandoned. She was known to have had marital problems.

People on the crime boards were quick to accuse her husband, and they did so with great certainty. I saw many comments along the lines of, "The husband did it. End of story."

Then the woman turned up alive. She had walked away from her life in a moment of panic, and no foul play was involved.

The people who posted these comments weren't corrupt. They didn't have a grudge against the woman's husband. They were lazy and complacent. They thought their gut instinct was infallible, so they didn't need to investigate the facts or see any evidence.

Same with the cops in Perugia. Amanda Knox is a friendly but introspective person. Her reaction to the stress of Meredith's murder was to keep her feelings to herself or share them only with people she knew and trusted. She did not participate in social catharsis with strangers or the emotional theatrics raging around her.

The cops were too stupid to understand that, and too complacent to try. They misread Amanda's character and formed a gut instinct that was simply wrong. It didn't begin as a corrupt or malicious attempt to frame an innocent person. Undoubtedly they thought they were doing real police work when they put the fear of God into Amanda and got her to sign two false statements.

That, they figured, would suffice until the forensics came back from the lab. So they held a press conference at which they made a triumphant announcement. It became headline news in two continents.

But when the forensic evidence arrived, it wasn't what they expected. And Lumumba turned up an unbreakable alibi.

As Matt Jones pointed out, everything changes after charges are laid. The cops realized they had put themselves out on a limb and risked looking like fools. That was when the corruption and malice began.
 
Sorry - which one do you mean by the "Nov 2nd video"? Have you got a URL for it, or at least where it appears on the pages I linked? My view of the links doesn't show any dates.
Sorry my bad I was referring to this video:
http://www.friendsofamanda.org/miscellaneous/police_video_november_2_2007.mp4
I think Charlie Wilkes has posted the links to the other parts here also, its a 84 mb file and the server seems to be quite busy now so downloading it might take some time.
 
cuki pbs #23
. . . the cops in Perugia. Amanda Knox is a friendly but introspective person. Her reaction to the stress of Meredith's murder was to keep her feelings to herself or share them only with people she knew and trusted. She did not participate in social catharsis with strangers or the emotional theatrics raging around her.

The cops were too stupid to understand that, and too complacent to try. They misread Amanda's character and formed a gut instinct that was simply wrong.

suddenly raised her eyes to the ceiling and shouted vehemently: 'Those *********** bastards!

'She *********** bled to death'
 
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Square that they picked up that particular knife? I'm still on the incompetence or Colombo aspects. The cop probably sensed that it was the "Purloined Letter" sitting all clean on top of the everything in the drawer. He was the guy that reported the smell of bleach that later was called the smell of "clean" as Raf's cleaner didn't use bleach but had cleaned the apartment that day.

Stefanoni is the one that turned that knife into the murder weapon using the questionable techniques in an uncertified lab.

There is no doubt that the PLE thought she was guilty at this point of at least aiding and abetting.

If you believe they just picked a knife that wasn't close to the bloody print or match a number of cuts to frame them, I ask why they didn't pick a better match for a knife and why they didn't put a little Meredith blood on it? They certainly had enough of her blood left in the cottage. A little blood on a rag that is moistened and rubbed on the blade should have worked.

Even better why didn't they do that to one of Raf's tech knives?

Does someone have a picture of the knives they collected from the cottage?
Good question. I am happy to answer. I don't know. Why not dab some blood on one of Raf's more credible knives? Actually, have we ever seen any pictures of those? I wonder what size was the one he took to the questura? Maybe they thuggishly thought they needed a really big knife because of the large wound.
 
cuki pbs #23

suddenly raised her eyes to the ceiling and shouted vehemently: 'Those *********** bastards!

'She *********** bled to death'

Yes, she seems every bit as outraged at the slaughter of Meredith as any of us would be.
 
cuki pbs #23

suddenly raised her eyes to the ceiling and shouted vehemently: 'Those *********** bastards!

'She *********** bled to death'

Are you implying there was a rather large gap between the two quotes above? Is Follain the only source for these statements? What do you think is the significance of these quotes?

In case anyone missed it over at IA, here is a title of one of Follain's articles before his "definitive account" was published:

The Kercher Trial: Psychopath Amanda Knox Snared by Her Lust and Her Lies

http://www.sott.net/article/198524-...h-Amanda-Knox-Snared-by-Her-Lust-and-Her-Lies
 
Just reading Machiavelli's summary of the Cassazione ruling on the True Justice website regarding Curatolo's testimony. Apparantly Curatolo was assertive and consistent in his testimony and we should not disregard his testimony just because we may dislike the lifestyle of a heroin addict. Also he was not mistaken about the dates because of other evidence. I would have thought he was either wholly consistent with regard to dates or he wasn't.
 
Just reading Machiavelli's summary of the Cassazione ruling on the True Justice website regarding Curatolo's testimony. Apparantly Curatolo was assertive and consistent in his testimony and we should not disregard his testimony just because we may dislike the lifestyle of a heroin addict. Also he was not mistaken about the dates because of other evidence. I would have thought he was either wholly consistent with regard to dates or he wasn't.

Machiavelli needs to reread NancyS's remarks on the "lifestyle of a heroin addict."

If Machiavelli's opinion wins the day, this will only cause more international disrepute to Italy's justice system. This is not a lifestyle issue. It is a functionality issue that has nothing to do with Curatolo as a person (morally speaking) but the well known effects of substance abuse - particularly this substance and the others which usually accompany it.

It's a matter of using such a person as the lynchpin of evidence against two innocents. To spin this as a prejudice against a person's "lifestyle", rather than known cognitive effects of substance abuse will be analysed quietly by substance abuse professionals world-wide. The only remaining question is if Italian professionals in this area fear calunnia or demation - like what happens to journalists who dissent - enough to decline testifying... I mean, this is a country which charges seismologists with failing to predict an earthquake. Like Italy needs more whacks to its reputation!!!

What's on trial from here on in is the very international reputation of Italy's justice system. The issue of Curatolo will be where the proverbial "reasonable person" wins the day, not Machiavelli.... at least eventually.
 
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Here is what Amanda said in her book:

When I wasn't on the phone, I paced. I walked by one of Meredith's friends, Natalie Hayworth, who was saying, "I hope Meredith didn't suffer."

Still worked up, I turned around and gaped. "How could she not have suffered?" I said. She got her ****** throat slit. ****** bastards."
 
So if Machiavelli thinks the issue with Curatolo is simply one of "lifestyle"... is Machiavelli using his clinical experience in sleep and sleep-deprivation issues to give an expert opinion? Eh, Machiavelli?
 
So if Machiavelli thinks the issue with Curatolo is simply one of "lifestyle"... is Machiavelli using his clinical experience in sleep and sleep-deprivation issues to give an expert opinion? Eh, Machiavelli?

Well to be fair, I think he is summarising what the Cassazione ruling is saying in this particular article (though am sure he agrees with it).
 
Just reading Machiavelli's summary of the Cassazione ruling on the True Justice website regarding Curatolo's testimony. Apparantly Curatolo was assertive and consistent in his testimony and we should not disregard his testimony just because we may dislike the lifestyle of a heroin addict. Also he was not mistaken about the dates because of other evidence. I would have thought he was either wholly consistent with regard to dates or he wasn't.
It starts with:
Introduction

On May 18. 2013 the Supreme Court of Cassazione issued the official rationale for the sentence of annulment of the Hellmann-Zanetti verdict.
:jaw-dropp
 
cuki pbs #23

suddenly raised her eyes to the ceiling and shouted vehemently: 'Those *********** bastards!

'She *********** bled to death'

I doubt if she "shouted vehemently." She gave a terse reply to an inane comment that certainly warranted one.
 
Bill Williams said:
So if Machiavelli thinks the issue with Curatolo is simply one of "lifestyle"... is Machiavelli using his clinical experience in sleep and sleep-deprivation issues to give an expert opinion? Eh, Machiavelli?

Well to be fair, I think he is summarising what the Cassazione ruling is saying in this particular article (though am sure he agrees with it).

Ok. Fair enough. However, I have a lifestyle issue with being fair to Machiavelli!

That's a joke people!!!!! This is the part where you're supposed to laugh! :D
 
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