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Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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That said, I do have good reason to believe that Magistrato Mignini strongly believes he did his duty and did it well in this case.

I suppose it is true that Magistrato Mignini strongly believes he did his duty. I'm sure he felt the same way about the Monster of Florence prosecution in which it took the ISC a thousand pages to explain why all of the people he indicted were actually innocent and no crime was committed.

Of course, Mignini was at the crime scene early on. He gave the coroner a direct order not to take the body temperature. If you check how the actions of Mignini affect each of the groups, perhaps it will provide some insight into why they did what they did. The coroner didn't want to do a bad job by not taking the body temperature. He had no choice.
 
Call them inclinations, then. All other things being equal, that is what I think. I am speaking solely of the investigative phase here.

I have these inclinations because that is my life experience. Here is what I think.

Individual Malice is Unlikely.

I am inclined to believe in good faith because my experience tells me that most people try to do their jobs and their duty as they see it. Some are lazy, and some are bad at their jobs, but rarely are they just out and out malicious. Are their bad cops? Sure. Do they outnumber good cops? Not close. Even if you had a bad actor here, individual malice would be hard to conceive and execute in the time available. Again, I am speaking of the initial investigation. This point changes afterward. You would have to believe that a bad cop quickly thought up a plan to frame Knox and Sollecito, figured out how to do it, and pulled it off without getting caught. That seems farfetched to me. I don't think that individual had time or opportunity, and it would have to be one wickedly smart and clever individual. Those are rare too.

Group Malice is Even More Unlikely.

It is a common fallacy that organizations are unitary. In this case we speak of "the Police." Organizations are lumpy combinations of personalities and the messy dynamics that follow. Ever try to organize an office party or picnic, particularly when office politics are at play? Not easy. Organizations are even less unitary when you move them into a non-recurring task. Creating evidence and framing individuals is not the stated purpose or repeating task of police organizations. To get the "police"to do it here would require a discipline I just do not see in the videos I have viewed.

Group Malice Across the Multiple Teams is Less Likely Still.

Multi-team efforts are EXTREMELY difficult to coordinate, even when lines of authority and responsibility are clear, which they were not here. You had at least three groups of police stepping all over each other, with no person clearly in charge of all of them.

My reaction to that is that it's all very well talking about what is "unlikely", but you have to make your conclusions based on what has actually happened. What I see in this discussion is PGP (and even judges) asserting or implying that such-and-such interpretation of the evidence is "unlikely", so as to back up their own favoured interpretation which is even more unlikely.

IAC, I don't necessarily agree with your assessment of what is "unlikely". Amanda reports an irrational hostility towards her, from Monica Napoleoni right from their first meeting on November 2, when she (Amanda) became confused over whether the faeces was still in the toilet.

Not only that, but the course of the investigation here follows a pattern visible in police behaviour whenever it has led to a wrongful prosecution. It's a conscious or unconscious effort to "solve the crime" the easy way, by picking out suspects for arbitrary reasons from the people they are already in contact with - instead of taking a step back and telling themselves that the real culprit has almost certainly made himself scarce.

That's why I don't go along with the claim that statistics show that murders are usually committed by people close to the victim (read: "people convicted of murder are usually someone close to the victim"); these statistics are going to be distorted by the very fact that police typically focus on exactly these people.

It's the Cluedo or Agatha Christie school of crime analysis.
I do a lot of oil and gas work, which always involves multi-team efforts. When you drill a well, you will have a dozen or so contractors from a dozen or so different companies on site, each providing a different service, each bringing in their own equipment, each with its own corporate culture, and each setting up in their own way. It has to happen in very limited space. To make it work, there is a "toolpusher" and "company man" on site. These are men with a command presence that makes General George Patton look like Jimmy Carter fighting a rabbit. Almost always, they are barrel chested men in coveralls and steel toes. Using a devastatingly effective mix of profanity, foghorn-loud voices, and sheer menace, they make it happen exactly as it is supposed to happen. They have almost absolute authority. If you cross them, they will run your ass off before you can say "turning to the right." It takes that kind of no-nonsense supervision, that kind of command presence and authority, to make a big project with multiple teams work.

I see nothing resembling that here. I see teams doing their own thing, stepping on each other in a small space, and just overall lacking centralized coordination. That undergirds my inclination that mistakes resulted from disorganization, not malice.

This changes after charges are laid.

Once the charges were made, the organizations all had incentives in prestige and pride to be right. The inclination to give the benefit of the doubt lessens after that.

I will agree with this - although the watershed for this was the wrongful arrests of 3 innocent people (not 2) on November 6. That's when the cover-up kicked in - including blaming Amanda for the police treatment of Patrick Lumumba. Charges were not actually placed against Amanda and Raff until about a year later.
That said, I do have good reason to believe that Magistrato Mignini strongly believes he did his duty and did it well in this case.

You can accept this or not. I am open to challenge. But these are my inclinations based on my experience. If the evidence goes in a different direction so will I.

I think the evidence went in a different direction a long time ago.
 
There's nothing there to challenge. If I want to persuade you or anybody there was a multi- team effort I already know I need facts and arguments rather than resorting to some generalised slur. The knife is funny though.

The knife comes later, I think. But I need facts too. Let me bear down on that. My next step is to work through the evidence collection video.
 
I suppose it is true that Magistrato Mignini strongly believes he did his duty. I'm sure he felt the same way about the Monster of Florence prosecution in which it took the ISC a thousand pages to explain why all of the people he indicted were actually innocent and no crime was committed.

Of course, Mignini was at the crime scene early on. He gave the coroner a direct order not to take the body temperature. If you check how the actions of Mignini affect each of the groups, perhaps it will provide some insight into why they did what they did. The coroner didn't want to do a bad job by not taking the body temperature. He had no choice.


I would like to no more about this.

I do not find it odd that a prosecutor would visit the crime scene, though.

I am not challenging you here or saying you are wrong, but where do we draw these facts from?
 
The knife comes later, I think. But I need facts too. Let me bear down on that. My next step is to work through the evidence collection video.

Fine. But it's not much later. They picked it up on 06 Nov and to those like Grinder who don't think they framed anybody before they swapped black persons I would like to know how they square that.
 
I would like to no more about this.

I do not find it odd that a prosecutor would visit the crime scene, though.

I am not challenging you here or saying you are wrong, but where do we draw these facts from?

He was observing as the glass was broken in on the downstairs door on 3 Nov, IIRC. If I also am remembering correctly, IIP has a video of him going from his car and entering the upstairs flat that seems to show he did not put on protective footwear.
 
Ok. What do we know about this squad? Any video/photos?

I don't personally know of any photos or documentary evidence of the flying squad activities at the cottage on 11/6 and 11/7. Personally, I think they spent 2 days there and didn't do much except make a mess.

That said, it would be interesting to see comparisons of the pics of Knox's room and Kerchers room at the end of the day on 11/5 (when the scientific police left) against the condition on 12/18 when the supposedly sealed cottage was opened. That should give us some indication if just what the flying squad did during the 11/6-7 "inspection" or whatever they want to call it.

Keep in mind that the knife was also seized on 11/6 and sent to the office of one of the cops who was involved in the cottage search on 11/6, and he unsealed it.
 
Cuki pbs #21.5

I don't personally know of any photos or documentary evidence of the flying squad activities at the cottage on 11/6 and 11/7. Personally, I think they spent 2 days there and didn't do much except make a mess.

That said, it would be interesting to see comparisons of the pics of Knox's room and Kerchers room at the end of the day on 11/5 (when the scientific police left) against the condition on 12/18 when the supposedly sealed cottage was opened. That should give us some indication if just what the flying squad did during the 11/6-7 "inspection" or whatever they want to call it.

Keep in mind that the knife was also seized on 11/6 and sent to the office of one of the cops who was involved in the cottage search on 11/6, and he unsealed it.

Heisenberg's Principle
 
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cuki pbs #22

Call them inclinations, then. All other things being equal, that is what I think. I am speaking solely of the investigative phase here.

I have these inclinations because that is my life experience. Here is what I think.

Individual Malice is Unlikely.

I am inclined to believe in good faith because my experience tells me that most people try to do their jobs and their duty as they see it. Some are lazy, and some are bad at their jobs, but rarely are they just out and out malicious. Are their bad cops? Sure. Do they outnumber good cops? Not close. Even if you had a bad actor here, individual malice would be hard to conceive and execute in the time available. Again, I am speaking of the initial investigation. This point changes afterward. You would have to believe that a bad cop quickly thought up a plan to frame Knox and Sollecito, figured out how to do it, and pulled it off without getting caught. That seems farfetched to me. I don't think that individual had time or opportunity, and it would have to be one wickedly smart and clever individual. Those are rare too.

Group Malice is Even More Unlikely.

It is a common fallacy that organizations are unitary. In this case we speak of "the Police." Organizations are lumpy combinations of personalities and the messy dynamics that follow. Ever try to organize an office party or picnic, particularly when office politics are at play? Not easy. Organizations are even less unitary when you move them into a non-recurring task. Creating evidence and framing individuals is not the stated purpose or repeating task of police organizations. To get the "police"to do it here would require a discipline I just do not see in the videos I have viewed.

Group Malice Across the Multiple Teams is Less Likely Still.

Multi-team efforts are EXTREMELY difficult to coordinate, even when lines of authority and responsibility are clear, which they were not here. You had at least three groups of police stepping all over each other, with no person clearly in charge of all of them.

I do a lot of oil and gas work, which always involves multi-team efforts. When you drill a well, you will have a dozen or so contractors from a dozen or so different companies on site, each providing a different service, each bringing in their own equipment, each with its own corporate culture, and each setting up in their own way. It has to happen in very limited space. To make it work, there is a "toolpusher" and "company man" on site. These are men with a command presence that makes General George Patton look like Jimmy Carter fighting a rabbit. Almost always, they are barrel chested men in coveralls and steel toes. Using a devastatingly effective mix of profanity, foghorn-loud voices, and sheer menace, they make it happen exactly as it is supposed to happen. They have almost absolute authority. If you cross them, they will run your ass off before you can say "turning to the right." It takes that kind of no-nonsense supervision, that kind of command presence and authority, to make a big project with multiple teams work.

I see nothing resembling that here. I see teams doing their own thing, stepping on each other in a small space, and just overall lacking centralized coordination. That undergirds my inclination that mistakes resulted from disorganization, not malice.

This changes after charges are laid.

Once the charges were made, the organizations all had incentives in prestige and pride to be right. The inclination to give the benefit of the doubt lessens after that. That said, I do have good reason to believe that Magistrato Mignini strongly believes he did his duty and did it well in this case.

You can accept this or not. I am open to challenge. But these are my inclinations based on my experience. If the evidence goes in a different direction so will I.

Matt Jones - remember the name.
 
Call them inclinations, then. All other things being equal, that is what I think. I am speaking solely of the investigative phase here.

I have these inclinations because that is my life experience. Here is what I think.

Individual Malice is Unlikely.

I am inclined to believe in good faith because my experience tells me that most people try to do their jobs and their duty as they see it. Some are lazy, and some are bad at their jobs, but rarely are they just out and out malicious. Are their bad cops? Sure. Do they outnumber good cops? Not close. Even if you had a bad actor here, individual malice would be hard to conceive and execute in the time available. Again, I am speaking of the initial investigation. This point changes afterward. You would have to believe that a bad cop quickly thought up a plan to frame Knox and Sollecito, figured out how to do it, and pulled it off without getting caught. That seems farfetched to me. I don't think that individual had time or opportunity, and it would have to be one wickedly smart and clever individual. Those are rare too.

Group Malice is Even More Unlikely.

It is a common fallacy that organizations are unitary. In this case we speak of "the Police." Organizations are lumpy combinations of personalities and the messy dynamics that follow. Ever try to organize an office party or picnic, particularly when office politics are at play? Not easy. Organizations are even less unitary when you move them into a non-recurring task. Creating evidence and framing individuals is not the stated purpose or repeating task of police organizations. To get the "police"to do it here would require a discipline I just do not see in the videos I have viewed.

Group Malice Across the Multiple Teams is Less Likely Still.

Multi-team efforts are EXTREMELY difficult to coordinate, even when lines of authority and responsibility are clear, which they were not here. You had at least three groups of police stepping all over each other, with no person clearly in charge of all of them.

I do a lot of oil and gas work, which always involves multi-team efforts. When you drill a well, you will have a dozen or so contractors from a dozen or so different companies on site, each providing a different service, each bringing in their own equipment, each with its own corporate culture, and each setting up in their own way. It has to happen in very limited space. To make it work, there is a "toolpusher" and "company man" on site. These are men with a command presence that makes General George Patton look like Jimmy Carter fighting a rabbit. Almost always, they are barrel chested men in coveralls and steel toes. Using a devastatingly effective mix of profanity, foghorn-loud voices, and sheer menace, they make it happen exactly as it is supposed to happen. They have almost absolute authority. If you cross them, they will run your ass off before you can say "turning to the right." It takes that kind of no-nonsense supervision, that kind of command presence and authority, to make a big project with multiple teams work.

I see nothing resembling that here. I see teams doing their own thing, stepping on each other in a small space, and just overall lacking centralized coordination. That undergirds my inclination that mistakes resulted from disorganization, not malice.

This changes after charges are laid.

Once the charges were made, the organizations all had incentives in prestige and pride to be right. The inclination to give the benefit of the doubt lessens after that. That said, I do have good reason to believe that Magistrato Mignini strongly believes he did his duty and did it well in this case.

You can accept this or not. I am open to challenge. But these are my inclinations based on my experience. If the evidence goes in a different direction so will I.

While I agree with the rarity of this as possible, and probable....

How do you explain the interrogation then?
This was done with a group of not only 12 or more, but others in the monitoring room, some testifying of screams heard, some saying it was a tea party.

I can understand in your experience you've possibly never witnessed a pack of police under a Italian system in Perugia, but it seems it can occur where the police group/entity can be dishonest. I would use the term dishonest, possibly incorrectly and too passively in this case.
Also, you leave out a possible local cultural trait, Douglas Preston often refers to the term Face Saving and how most people cant comprehend how deep this can go in his experience of Italy. He has had personal experience with Migninni, which is different than oil fields and possibly your experience's.

I think you bring to surface some human perspectives in why some believe the police did no wrong, while others believe the police were incompetent or corrupt, or both.

Three burnt-up hard-drives, not one destroyed hard-drive, is another issue to apply your inclination's too.
 
Fine. But it's not much later. They picked it up on 06 Nov and to those like Grinder who don't think they framed anybody before they swapped black persons I would like to know how they square that.

Square that they picked up that particular knife? I'm still on the incompetence or Colombo aspects. The cop probably sensed that it was the "Purloined Letter" sitting all clean on top of the everything in the drawer. He was the guy that reported the smell of bleach that later was called the smell of "clean" as Raf's cleaner didn't use bleach but had cleaned the apartment that day.

Stefanoni is the one that turned that knife into the murder weapon using the questionable techniques in an uncertified lab.

There is no doubt that the PLE thought she was guilty at this point of at least aiding and abetting.

If you believe they just picked a knife that wasn't close to the bloody print or match a number of cuts to frame them, I ask why they didn't pick a better match for a knife and why they didn't put a little Meredith blood on it? They certainly had enough of her blood left in the cottage. A little blood on a rag that is moistened and rubbed on the blade should have worked.

Even better why didn't they do that to one of Raf's tech knives?

Does someone have a picture of the knives they collected from the cottage?
 
If you believe they just picked a knife that wasn't close to the bloody print or match a number of cuts to frame them, I ask why they didn't pick a better match for a knife and why they didn't put a little Meredith blood on it? They certainly had enough of her blood left in the cottage. A little blood on a rag that is moistened and rubbed on the blade should have worked.

Even better why didn't they do that to one of Raf's tech knives?

This is one of the mysteries: there are clear indications of a frame-up, but why didn't they do a better job of it?

My take on it is that they were so arrogant that it never occurred to them that anything they did would be challenged. In the Massei court all they needed was 2 items with alleged DNA on them, produced by conjuring tricks, which wouldn't prove involvement even if the DNA readings were genuine - plus a few coached "witnesses" with highly-ambivalent testimony. Crank the handle, guilty verdict.

They probably didn't even consider the possibility that their antics would attract world-wide attention, assuming they could lock the students away for decades and they would be forgotten. But of course injustice like this has a habit of turning into a scandal that reaches far beyond what they would have foreseen.

The recent Supreme Court ruling is a salutary reminder that this kind of confidence on the part of corrupt police has solid foundations in Italy.
 
This is one of the mysteries: there are clear indications of a frame-up, but why didn't they do a better job of it?

My take on it is that they were so arrogant that it never occurred to them that anything they did would be challenged. In the Massei court all they needed was 2 items with alleged DNA on them, produced by conjuring tricks, which wouldn't prove involvement even if the DNA readings were genuine - plus a few coached "witnesses" with highly-ambivalent testimony. Crank the handle, guilty verdict.

They probably didn't even consider the possibility that their antics would attract world-wide attention, assuming they could lock the students away for decades and they would be forgotten. But of course injustice like this has a habit of turning into a scandal that reaches far beyond what they would have foreseen.

The recent Supreme Court ruling is a salutary reminder that this kind of confidence on the part of corrupt police has solid foundations in Italy.

I was following the case on a daily basis then and if they didn't see that this was a worldwide story...well they couldn't miss that. It was big before they accused Amanda and huge after that.

There had been another murder there a year before of something like that and they really were under pressure to solve this one fast, precisely because of the media coverage.

I will stick with incompetence.
 
This is one of the mysteries: there are clear indications of a frame-up, but why didn't they do a better job of it?

My take on it is that they were so arrogant that it never occurred to them that anything they did would be challenged. In the Massei court all they needed was 2 items with alleged DNA on them, produced by conjuring tricks, which wouldn't prove involvement even if the DNA readings were genuine - plus a few coached "witnesses" with highly-ambivalent testimony. Crank the handle, guilty verdict.

They probably didn't even consider the possibility that their antics would attract world-wide attention, assuming they could lock the students away for decades and they would be forgotten. But of course injustice like this has a habit of turning into a scandal that reaches far beyond what they would have foreseen.

The recent Supreme Court ruling is a salutary reminder that this kind of confidence on the part of corrupt police has solid foundations in Italy.
Ain't that the truth. In the weeks following the arrest, and when even Guede was know and Lumumba was released, author John Follain reports that Mr. Mignini wondered why the two students had not cracked. If at all true, then it suggests that the PLE thought they've not have to eventually go to court with a dodgy knife.... I cannot remember if Follain puts Mignini's musings before or after the order to go back and get something, anything.

Perhaps this also is the reason why that if there was a frame up, it was not a particularly good one. If they can put Raffaele's DNA on to a bra-clasp as some allege, then why not sprinkle samples of Knox's hair in the murder room?

The whole thing is bizarre. The most bizarre is that the ISC seems embedded in an early version of it... some of it pre-Massei's motivations report when the only thing being reported from the courtroom was the untested histrionics of the prosecution.
 
He was observing as the glass was broken in on the downstairs door on 3 Nov, IIRC. If I also am remembering correctly, IIP has a video of him going from his car and entering the upstairs flat that seems to show he did not put on protective footwear.
The first one is in the Nov 2nd video at 06:46 min
I'll look for the second.
 
My take on it is that they were so arrogant that it never occurred to them that anything they did would be challenged.

I agreed with this in the early time, when it was only the Perugia pack.

But then it grew to the Rome Lab, and all the way to today with the ISC ordering the re-trial.

And with this I can't comprehend Migninni or any locals having this type of connection. We would be touching on conspiracy theorys then, as Matt said Group Malice across Multiple teams...
 
The first one is in the Nov 2nd video at 06:46 min
I'll look for the second.

Sorry - which one do you mean by the "Nov 2nd video"? Have you got a URL for it, or at least where it appears on the pages I linked? My view of the links doesn't show any dates.
 
Ain't that the truth. In the weeks following the arrest, and when even Guede was know and Lumumba was released, author John Follain reports that Mr. Mignini wondered why the two students had not cracked. If at all true, then it suggests that the PLE thought they've not have to eventually go to court with a dodgy knife.... I cannot remember if Follain puts Mignini's musings before or after the order to go back and get something, anything.

Who allegedly gave this order to go back and get something, anything? As I understand it, the ILE wanted to go back earlier as they realized they had forgotten things, but by that time they had to negotiate with the defense for when and how. Part of the reason the video is so stilted is that the defense was watching from outside.

Perhaps this also is the reason why that if there was a frame up, it was not a particularly good one. If they can put Raffaele's DNA on to a bra-clasp as some allege, then why not sprinkle samples of Knox's hair in the murder room?

If this were the widespread conspiracy that the PGP accuse PIP of alleging then yes they could have put some of Amanda's blood or skin cells in the murder room or on Meredith's blue jacket or ? They would have had access to plenty of her DNA by then.

The whole thing is bizarre. The most bizarre is that the ISC seems embedded in an early version of it... some of it pre-Massei's motivations report when the only thing being reported from the courtroom was the untested histrionics of the prosecution.

I don't know what you mean by "the only thing being reported" was the prosecutions histrionics. The press reported plenty of the challenges the defense offered.

I do totally agree that the SC going for the sex game is bizarre. As I've said, if this report turned out to be from the Italian Cipollo I wouldn't be shocked.

This aspect will be really nasty for the prosecution to try to prove.
 
I agreed with this in the early time, when it was only the Perugia pack.

That really was only for hours. The big guns were called in right away.

But then it grew to the Rome Lab, and all the way to today with the ISC ordering the re-trial.

And with this I can't comprehend Migninni or any locals having this type of connection. We would be touching on conspiracy theorys then, as Matt said Group Malice across Multiple teams...

This was a mega story from the beginning. Anyone in Perugia that thought they wouldn't be exposed to wide spread coverage would have to be in the flat earth society.
 
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