Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

Please note, no one has even mentioned "that blogger" for a while. Whereas the malfeasance claimed against Mignini is stored in Mignini's own (bizarre) use of Curatolo as a star witness ("Heroine doesn't cloud the memory!), Briars needs something, anything to divert attention FROM NancyS's thing.

Bill many a heroine has clouded many men's memories.

While Nancy did add her professional experience, it has been widely discussed by people here and elsewhere that Curatolo being a junkie and admittingly high that night (or was the other night) combined with his denying anything seen until months later and mixing up buses and days makes his testimony worthless.

As I've said many a time, if a Curatolo had come forward backing the kids' alibi, the PG people in the ILE and online would have howled disbelief.

I really can't believe that this SC report isn't a parody.

No one in Perugia knew Amanda had blue eyes until a year after, really? Really?

Thanks Anglo for the point of law. Does anybody know if the defense for the kids was allowed any standing at Rudi's trial?

ETA - Bill the fact that Massei didn't agree with Mignini or the SC on details or aspects isn't that big of a deal. You disagree with his verdict and much of his assessments. Pointing these out occasionally may serve a purpose but they aren't in the end a winning argument. I thought Hellmann made mistakes such as how Rudi got blood on his foot (shoe fell off during murder/sex) and the calumnia made no sense, yet I agreed that the ILE hadn't proven their case.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill many a heroine has clouded many men's memories.

While Nancy did add her professional experience, it has been widely discussed by people here and elsewhere that Curatolo being a junkie and admittingly high that night (or was the other night) combined with his denying anything seen until months later and mixing up buses and days makes his testimony worthless.

As I've said many a time, if a Curatolo had come forward backing the kids' alibi, the PG people in the ILE and online would have howled disbelief.

I really can't believe that this SC report isn't a parody.

No one in Perugia knew Amanda had blue eyes until a year after, really? Really?

Thanks Anglo for the point of law. Does anybody know if the defense for the kids was allowed any standing at Rudi's trial?

It's this business of all these witnesses who saw nothing, but months or a year later claimed they did, which will be Mignini's downfall. How many of these do we need before discovering evidence becomes manufacturing it?

 

[Grinder]

In my view, the narrative surrounding the bleach is filled with improbablities, not the least of which is Quintaville at first not seeing Knox, then a year later remembering seeing her.... where even Massei brushes all this nonsense aside by writing that perhaps more bleach needed to be purchased, because after all Quintaville say Amanda in his store.... but that "extra Bleach" wasn't used at the cottage, because if it was it would have interfered with distinguishing between bleach and blood....

Bill I can't find where Massei says more bleach needed to be purchased - do you have an actual quote?

He was asked – so Quintavalle recalled - about purchases made by Raffaele Sollecito. Mr. Quintavalle did not say anything about having seen Amanda Knox on the morning of November 2, 2007 in his [76] shop because he was not questioned about this and because, as indicated by Quintavalle himself, he considered this fact to be insignificant.
He later spoke about having seen Amanda Knox because a young man who used to live above his shop, who he knew, Antioco Fois, had just graduated and had become a freelance reporter for the newspaper Giornale dell’Umbria. When he passed him, he would sometimes ask: "But do you know anything? Did you see something? Did you hear something?" So one day Quintavalle told Fois that he had seen Amanda Knox on the morning of November 2; later he decided to go to the Public Prosecutor’s Office because Antioco Fois convinced him that this fact might be important.
Consequently, the fact of not telling Inspector Volturno about seeing Amanda on the morning of November 2 and the fact of having come forward only after having been convinced by Antioco Fois about the possible significance of this event, do not reduce the reliability of the witness, since these facts do not affect the genuineness of the memory.

The following quote makes me wonder if Massei has ever hung out with a woman.

Since she knew she and Raffaele had made plans for a trip to Gubbio on November 2nd, she could well have brought the clothes with her that were going to be needed for the next day, and there were no circumstances shown that, occurring and unforeseen, may have given rise to such needs; on the evening of the same November 1st, she had already showered and washed her hair at Raffaele’s house, and therefore it is hardly credible there is a need to repeat both those actions, and it is not understandable why, in addition, she would have to repeat all this somewhere else and not where she already just had a shower and washed her hair, especially since for the scheduled trip it would have been advisable to save time.

 

[MattJones]

Matt could weigh in on

Thank you for asking. I have only briefly looked at extradition from the US angle, and you must know that my relevant experience in that field is extremely limited and two decades old.

My tentative conclusion was that she was very much at risk for being extradited. Put differently, her avoiding extradition was far from a sure thing.

I would put that opinion about three millimeters above a WAG, so take it for what it is worth.

Practically, I do not think it is an issue, because I think she will voluntarily return to Italy to stand trial. But that's just me.

 

[Grinder]

It's this business of all these witnesses who saw nothing, but months or a year later claimed they did, which will be Mignini's downfall. How many of these do we need before discovering evidence becomes manufacturing it?

The thing is that the witnesses were found by that reporter Fois (I thinkj he found them all except Nara). Mignini would be in trouble if he didn't call all the witnesses just like Hellmann had the jail house snitches come to court.

 

[MattJones]

If you look in her testimony, she later corrects herself, saying the camera, not the laptop was on Filomena's desk.

"I didn't see the rock. I saw that there was the computer on the tab-- No!
The camera was on the table. I saw that the things were still there. I
didn't see the rock."​

Impressive catch. Thank you. I admire that kind of attention to detail.

As they say in the Navy, "well done!" As they say in the oilfield, expressing exactly the same level of approval but with more manly reserve, "you'll do."

 

[Grinder]

Thank you for asking. I have only briefly looked at extradition from the US angle, and you must know that my relevant experience in that field is extremely limited and two decades old.

My tentative conclusion was that she was very much at risk for being extradited. Put differently, her avoiding extradition was far from a sure thing.

I would put that opinion about three millimeters above a WAG, so take it for what it is worth.

Practically, I do not think it is an issue, because I think she will voluntarily return to Italy to stand trial. But that's just me.

I wasn't just asking about extradition but about the legal aspect of using one trial that someone wasn't involved with against them. But thanks for responding.

As for her returning to Italy to stand trial - where is that online wager site we need to put our money where .....

 

[Bill Williams]

In my view, the narrative surrounding the bleach is filled with improbablities, not the least of which is Quintaville at first not seeing Knox, then a year later remembering seeing her.... where even Massei brushes all this nonsense aside by writing that perhaps more bleach needed to be purchased, because after all Quintaville say Amanda in his store.... but that "extra Bleach" wasn't used at the cottage, because if it was it would have interfered with distinguishing between bleach and blood....

Bill I can't find where Massei says more bleach needed to be purchased - do you have an actual quote?

It's an inference. Why is Amanda there if bleach was not used at the cottage? Was the "extra bleach" requiring Knox to be at Qunitavalle's for the knife back at the cottage?

The point I was making, unsuccessfully it appears, is that the issue of bleach at Raffaele's compared with Bleach at the cottage is different for Massei. This is how he puts it.

(Lessee, is this a paraphrase or an actual quote!)

no one entering the house had declared that they had noticed any smell of bleach, unlike what, on the contrary, had occurred with reference to Raffaele Sollecito's house on the occasion of the entry there on November 6th. Furthermore, if the presence of bleach had been spread throughout the house via some cleaning activity (carried out, it is not known by whom, in the various rooms) which had affected these various rooms, then many more traces ought to have been highlighted as Luminol-positive than were actually found.

 

[MattJones]

Really really? A murder has occurred in the home. A window is broken out and you don't think any police could have anticipated the importance of that scene? Really? Really?

Well let's analyze that.

They see a broken window and scattered clothes in one room, and a dead girl with possible signs of sexual assault in the other. They tentatively conclude that someone broke in and killed her as part of a burglary. How rash.

But you! You are the reincarnation of Hercule Poirot and Nastradamus combined. You see more.

From that scant evidence, you immediately discern that this was a coke fueled rampage by the other female roommate along with her drug dealing acquaintance and sissy boy boyfriend. You immediately see that the scene under the window contains not just broken glass, but the critical clues to the staged break in. And you do it in the twenty minutes between the time you first see the scene and the other police arrive. So you bend down in that short time and map the position of every shard. Hat's off.

There is an old Cajun saying. Don't let your mouth overload you a**. I'd say you need to head for the weigh station. You are running heavy.

perhaps the dumbest police in the world

That is your script. "Police bad, Amanda innocent." I don't have a script, and I am not reading from yours.

To quote one of the greatest expressions of individual liberty and intellectual honesty ever, courtesy of the Wayan brothers:

Homey don't play that.

 

[MattJones]

I wasn't just asking about extradition but about the legal aspect of using one trial that someone wasn't involved with against them. But thanks for responding.

As for her returning to Italy to stand trial - where is that online wager site we need to put our money where .....

I will tell you everything I know. When I clerked for the US Fifth many years ago, my first case was a challenge to extradition. The accused had been tried in another country in absentia. He was extradited.

I don't remember much about it. But I seem to remember that one of the reasons it did not offend due process was because he would have the opportunity to present his evidence fully under that country's procedure as part of the appeal. It was somewhat like Italy in that regard. So the first "trial" was really treated as just sort of an elaborate probable cause hearing.

Bottom line, I think you can be extradited even if you were not there for the trial.

Warning: More than usual, Matt is talking out of his behind here, extrapolating what he knows to situations in which it may or may not apply. He is an unusually susceptible victim of hammer/nail thinking.

 

[GWCarver]

Well let's analyze that.

They see a broken window and scattered clothes in one room, and a dead girl with possible signs of sexual assault in the other. They tentatively conclude that someone broke in and killed her as part of a burglary. How rash.

But you! You are the reincarnation of Hercule Poirot and Nastradamus combined. You see more.

From that scant evidence, you immediately discern that this was a coke fueled rampage by the other female roommate along with her drug dealing acquaintance and sissy boy boyfriend. You immediately see that the scene under the window contains not just broken glass, but the critical clues to the staged break in. And you do it in the twenty minutes between the time you first see the scene and the other police arrive. So you bend down in that short time and map the position of every shard. Hat's off.

There is an old Cajun saying. Don't let your mouth overload you a**. I'd say you need to head for the weigh station. You are running heavy.




That is your script. "Police bad, Amanda innocent." I don't have a script, and I am not reading from yours.

To quote one of the greatest expressions of individual liberty and intellectual honesty ever, courtesy of the Wayan brothers:

Homey don't play that.

I really don't understand most of this post, but I sense incoming arriving soon.

But, I will say the Perugian cops are bad and Amanda is innocent.

With regard to the extradition, Steve Moore said Mignini would have to come to a U.S. Federal Court and present his case for Amanda's guilt. I think everyone knows that will never happen, although someone not named Mignini might give it a shot. But, that person would have to explain all of Mignini's interesting theories to the court. I personally don't think that will happen either.

Here is a link to Steve Moore's take on extradition:

http://www.gmancasefile.com/

 

[MattJones]

I really don't understand most of this post, but I sense incoming arriving soon.

Nope. That was a time on target salvo.

, I will say the Perugian cops are bad and Amanda is innocent.

I start with the presumption that both are innocent.

regard to the extradition, Steve Moore said Mignini would have to come to a U.S. District Court and present his case for Amanda's guilt.

Sort of. Request goes from Italy Foreign Minister to US Secretary of State to US Attorney in District where she is to US District Judge.

 

[MattJones]

GW Carver:

Scanned Moore article. Some of the legal propositions he espouses differ significantly from my own understanding of the law.

I am not sure about his statement that habeas corpus is available. I am dubious of the notion that would take five to seven years.

ETA: In fact, upon reflection, habeas may be the only way to challenge the extradition warrant once issued. Doesn't change my view on timing. In the only one I was every involved in, it did not take nearly that long. I think you are talking about 24 months, tops.

I am no expert. But I doubt very seriously anyone who is could come to a conclusion as firm as Mr. Moore's.

 

[MattJones]

Duplicate post

 

[Chris_Halkides]

What is wrong with this picture?

Is anyone putting the blame on pot? Three dysfunctional young people combined their angst into one fatal attack. Jealousy , sexual motive, childhood pain. and the thrill of finally getting to act out a knife fantasy was motive enough. Pot couldn't blur the memory and I agree could not influence a normal person. Aggression and group killings happen for no apparent reason with normal looking youths involved.

(highlighting mine)
Ms. Knox was a solid undergraduate student, and Mr. Sollecito was nearing completion of his degree; neither one was dysfunctional (if you think otherwise, please state your evidence and reasons). Rudy Guede, on the other hand, was a layabout who did not seize the opportunity of being adopted by a wealthy family. The next time a reporter or commenter sets out to write a "what is wrong with the youth of today" morality narrative, I suggest that they acquaint themselves with the cases of the Central Park Five, the West Memphis Three, or the Duke lacrosse three. If they do their homework, they might be more inclined to write a "What is wrong with the adults of today" narrative.

 

[Antony]

I start with the presumption that both are innocent.

Yes, but as the PGP are fond of saying, "the Perugia police are not on trial".

Of course, I take the opposite conclusion from the PGP: since the police are not on trial, anything they do or say has to be proved sound before it is accepted. It's those who are on trial who are entitled to the presumption of innocence, not their accusers.

 

[Grinder]

Bill the last quoted (in blue) segment is in fact a quote from Massei - see, it's easy.

You made the point that Massei said something about needing more bleach and no where in Massei do I find that. Yes, he treats the cottage and Raf's differently but that doesn't explain you're making the claim that Massei said they needed more bleach or whatever you now claim.

Once more you wrote - In my view, the narrative surrounding the bleach is filled with improbablities, not the least of which is Quintaville at first not seeing Knox, then a year later remembering seeing her.... where even Massei brushes all this nonsense aside by writing that perhaps more bleach needed to be purchased, because after all Quintaville say Amanda in his store.... but that "extra Bleach" wasn't used at the cottage, because if it was it would have interfered with distinguishing between bleach and blood....

So you haven't given the cite from Massei nor have you given a paraphrase paste from Massei.

I don't remember Q claiming she bought bleach only that she went to the cleaning supply aisle. Btw, Q's store wasn't a hardware store but rather a food mart.

ETA -

The whole bleach thing is dropped by cops. So why even direct the cops to go search the hardware stores any more? Yet even with this, as you say, Quintaville resurfaces a year later..... well, you get the drift.

So they didn't search hardware stores as you state. Q's store was very close to Raf's flat and I would hope the cops interviewed all the shop people in that area.

 

[Grinder]

Here defense team -

It was inevitable, of course. Why so many Italians the mind darkens when someone appears on TV. It does not matter because it is on the screen, no matter if Amanda Knox is accused of ' murder of Meredith (but is not guilty until proven guilty, nor are Raffaele Sollecito and Patrick), in the eyes of many Amanda is one of many chicks appeared on TV . The face of an angel, blue eyes, the skin from early twenties. Some Italian can not even draw a clear line between a tissue and a girl jumped to the headlines for an alleged murder.

Tuesday, November 13, 2007, 11:03 in Italian Chronicle , suspects and investigators
of Matthew Failla - for rest of article

Can someone verify that the SC actually said he is credible because he said she had blue eyes?

Hellmann argues, he saw at an angle and from far away. In so doing Hellmann ignores the clarity with which Quintavalle was able to describe the woman, seen from the front and only 70 - 80 cm away: clear blue eyes, pale skin, a tired expression. Not only that, but the judges had to clarify that the photos in the newspapers did not show Knox's eye color, which he was certain of upon seeing her in person in the courtroom.

Please someone tell me this alleged motivation from the SC is a parody. Please.

 

[anglolawyer]

Here defense team -

Tuesday, November 13, 2007, 11:03 in Italian Chronicle , suspects and investigators
of Matthew Failla - for rest of article

Can someone verify that the SC actually said he is credible because he said she had blue eyes?

Hellmann argues, he saw at an angle and from far away. In so doing Hellmann ignores the clarity with which Quintavalle was able to describe the woman, seen from the front and only 70 - 80 cm away: clear blue eyes, pale skin, a tired expression. Not only that, but the judges had to clarify that the photos in the newspapers did not show Knox's eye color, which he was certain of upon seeing her in person in the courtroom.

Please someone tell me this alleged motivation from the SC is a parody. Please.

It is the highest legal reasoning and absolutely an ontologically osmotic piece of otiosity (sorry about this - I'm standing in for Mach )

 

[Grinder]

It is the highest legal reasoning and absolutely an ontologically osmotic piece of otiosity (sorry about this - I'm standing in for Mach )

Seriously could they really have written that he couldn't have known the color of her eyes?

Will one of the PGP step up and say the Italian's have mucked this up?