Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

Bill my responses were to Nancy and her assessment of drug users and violent crime and witnesses who are drug users. I was agreeing pot would not be a big factor in Meredith's murder. The assailants were ofter high and pot doesn't cause aggression. Trying to keep the discussion on witnesses I ignored your attempt to sway the discourse to Massei wanting to stay on point about a witness who uses heroin versus a verbally abusive self serving blogger. A blogger who defamed Mignini and the Perugian police on many occasions At least you didn't bring up the 'no mixed blood' argument again. Thankfully

Briars... I am truthfully not following you at all. I have no idea why you'd bring a blogger, despite his troubles or claims, into what NancyS said. Why is diverting into that "staying on point"? I truly do not get that.

First.... are you denying that Mignini himself was never facing legal trouble of his own?

And I was not going to bring up "mixed blood," mainly because Judge Massei, the convicting judge, implied as factual in his motivations report that there was none.

So while we're on that topic, can you please tell Harry Rag/The Machine that it just makes him look foolish when he carpet bombs news-sites' comments sections with prosecution points which have long since been debunked. Eleven of them debunked at the very trial which convicted the pair in Dec 2009.

I feel a need coming, wait for it, wait for it, yes the urge is hitting... I feel a need to re-post those 11 points Massei made which tend to acquit the pair.... two of which are:

Unlike what you claim in your response to NancyS, there was no psychopathology in the two at all. And there was no mixed blood.

Why are you diverting from that with non sequitors? If it's not I'll apologize to you. I truly do not get it.

 

[GWCarver]

The evidence according to the SC supports more than one assailant. Early analysis indicates that Hellman made a very poor judgement. The defendants have much to answer to, and we will hear more no doubt. There has to be some motive, mine are suggestions any motive for taking Meredith's life was nonsensical and pathetic. My personal opinion of something being off with the defendants has only increased after their interviews and further changing stories. The point where Dianne asks Amanda if she did it or if she was there is frozen on video for all to see and read whether guilt or deception is present.

Yep, it will be frozen in time for all to see, as will the Court of Cassation's ridiculous ruling that Amanda and Raffaele were effectively found guilty at a trial in which they weren't defendants. Doesn't this bother the PGP at all that Italy has a unique system of justice in which the Supreme Court rules both a citizen and a foreigner are guilty as a preface to their trial? They are going to be ridiculed for a hundred years when word of this gets out.

I'll bet when the news of this reaches the gulags in Russia, the prisoners will say, "Well, good thing we're not in Italy, where you have to read the paper every day to see if you have been found guilty of a crime during another person's trial. At least we don't have to worry about that."

 

[js202]

The evidence according to the SC supports more than one assailant. Early analysis indicates that Hellman made a very poor judgement. The defendants have much to answer to, and we will hear more no doubt. There has to be some motive, mine are suggestions any motive for taking Meredith's life was nonsensical and pathetic. My personal opinion of something being off with the defendants has only increased after their interviews and further changing stories. The point where Dianne asks Amanda if she did it or if she was there is frozen on video for all to see and read whether guilt or deception is present.

In every respect, this is nonsensical and backwards thinking.

Extreme narcissists such as a Joran van der Sloot being the exception, as a general rule, guilty persons avoid being interviewed for the world to parse their smallest tics. Unlike Casey Anthony, for example, Amanda Knox has subjected herself to multiple interviews during which she could have tripped herself up in ways far more fundamental than what garden variety guilters may regard as gotcha moments.

It is patent nonsense that the defendants "have much to answer to." Both Knox and Sollecito have showed the courage to expose themselves to the light of day, whilst anonymous cowards behind keyboards - devoid of common sense, reason, or decency - cheerfully vilify them. They have already answered to far more than they ever deserved; Mignini, Maresca and their odious ilk have not yet begun to answer for their grotesque thoughts and actions.

 

[Briars]

Yep, it will be frozen in time for all to see, as will the Court of Cassation's ridiculous ruling that Amanda and Raffaele were effectively found guilty at a trial in which they weren't defendants. Doesn't this bother the PGP at all that Italy has a unique system of justice in which the Supreme Court rules both a citizen and a foreigner are guilty as a preface to their trial? They are going to be ridiculed for a hundred years when word of this gets out.

I'll bet when the news of this reaches the gulags in Russia, the prisoners will say, "Well, good thing we're not in Italy, where you have to read the paper every day to see if you have been found guilty of a crime during another person's trial. At least we don't have to worry about that."

Guede was convicted with other assailants being involved He didn't scale the wall he entered through the front door by way of someone with a key.That narrows the possibilities and points the guilt where the evidence leads. Hellman messed up and ignored the group attack ruling. I doubt Bongiorno will try to dig up possible new defendants to fill the empty shoes like she tried before.

 

[js202]

Guede was convicted with other assailants being involved He didn't scale the wall he entered through the front door by way of someone with a key.That narrows the possibilities and points the guilt where the evidence leads. Hellman messed up and ignored the group attack ruling. I doubt Bongiorno will try to dig up possible new defendants to fill the empty shoes like she tried before.

Prove it.

It is positively irrational - not to mention loony - to subscribe to either a "group attack" "theory," or to a staged break-in in this case. The actual evidence makes a mockery of either claim. You have bought a bill of goods from a bumbling rustic with more influence than neurons.

 

[Briars]

She had a book to peddle and a large advance to justify. The 'no evidence at all stance' is the last hope to garner support and get the American public to rally. It won't work her book raises more questions and her interviews gave us an unpleasant glimpse as to her real character. Now she needs more cash and just when the facts and evidence are going to be more commonly known. Its not all about the kiss and the cartwheel unfortunately for the defense. Throw good money after bad and donate . its not going to change the outcome.

 

[Briars]

Sorry is the' bumbling rustic 'the SC or just a general comment about the Italian justice system?

 

[js202]

She had a book to peddle and a large advance to justify. The 'no evidence at all stance' is the last hope to garner support and get the American public to rally. It won't work her book raises more questions and her interviews gave us an unpleasant glimpse as to her real character. Now she needs more cash and just when the facts and evidence are going to be more commonly known. Its not all about the kiss and the cartwheel unfortunately for the defense. Throw good money after bad and donate . its not going to change the outcome.

These are bromides and blandishments. Argue your case with evidence, and dare to withstand the likelihood your opinions will be demolished.

Why not begin with a detailed attention to the crime scene photos of the murder room, which Charlie Wilkes posted here recently? Utilizing the blood patterns, fingerprints and handprints, and the arrangement of objects in the room, please give us your hypothesis as to how three assailants overwhelmed Ms. Kercher in this space. Do you believe that Ms. Knox actually delivered the coup de gras with Mr. Sollecito's rented kitchen knife? If so, please give us her position in the room and in relationship to Ms. Kercher.

 

[Briars]

These are bromides and blandishments. Argue your case with evidence, and dare to withstand the likelihood your opinions will be demolished.

Why not begin with a detailed attention to the crime scene photos of the murder room, which Charlie Wilkes posted here recently? Utilizing the blood patterns, fingerprints and handprints, and the arrangement of objects in the room, please give us your hypothesis as to how three assailants overwhelmed Ms. Kercher in this space. Do you believe that Ms. Knox actually delivered the coup de gras with Mr. Sollecito's rented kitchen knife? If so, please give us her position in the room and in relationship to Ms. Kercher.

I expect we all will hear much more of the evidence which convinced the first court. The prosecution video demonstrates there was indeed room for all three. Meredith was turned over after the fatal attack and clothing was removed for the purpose of staging.The dying victim needed to be in a position to try to disguise the group attack. Someone even pointed out how a square object on the floor had been removed for some reason. Amanda's lamp was left on the floor again for some purpose. I have no idea who made the fatal blow. The SC is certain that the rest of the cottage was altered or cleaned , and who might take the time for that?

 

[js202]

I expect we all will hear much more of the evidence which convinced the first court. The prosecution video demonstrates there was indeed room for all three. Meredith was turned over after the fatal attack and clothing was removed for the purpose of staging.The dying victim needed to be in a position to try to disguise the group attack. Someone even pointed out how a square object on the floor had been removed for some reason. Amanda's lamp was left on the floor again for some purpose. I have no idea who made the fatal blow. The SC is certain that the rest of the cottage was altered or cleaned , and who might take the time for that?

In a crime scene that was compromised by shoddy police work, the lamp is a complete non sequitur. Even if it could be proven to have been in the room before Ms. Kercher's door was kicked open - which it cannot - it still proves nothing.

And none of what you write makes any discrete sense. It is piecemeal hypothesizing; disconnected, and certainly not evidence of murder, worthy to stand up in a civilized court of law.

Again, utilizing the crime scene photos at your disposal in this very thread, I am looking for *your* specific theory as to how the murder occurred, absurdly, with Amanda Knox playing the key role. I couldn't care less what the Italian Supreme Court thinks -- one of their members is an avowed 9/11 truther. I am looking for your specific argumentation. I am convinced that, if you undertake it, you will fail. The photos do not support any theory whatsoever that Ms. Knox and/or Mr. Sollecito could have been in the murder room, and directly contributed to the death of Meredith Kercher.

And once you concede this, if you are honest, you must concede that the "double DNA" knife business is garbage. And once one concedes this, it becomes a test of civility to acknowledge that the prosecution's case against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito is manifestly corrupt, and a house of cards.

 

[RandyN]

I know exactly what you are talking about. You are claiming that the forensics were perfect and that if Rudy ever tried to walk back down that hall the expert trackers would have spotted the trace of blood from his sneakers.

You are making the classic claim that absense of evidence is evidence of absense. I claim and showed through the prosecution's own photographic evidence that the forensics were crap. They completely missed the bloody shoe print by the pink bag that was visible in even the low resolution photos. If they can't see that print, how can you expect them to see a tiny mark like what was left at "Y" or "H" only more faded.

So you say luminol would have seen the faintest trace. Again, you are asserting perfection in a bunch that have demonstrated incompetence. They over applied the luminol to the point of washing away the traces, they didn't leave the lights out so they couldn't get dark adapted which is necessary to see faint traces. And, they only photographed the large full footprint sized splotches so they may not have even been looking for anything smaller.

It is entirely possible for Rudy to have walked back down that hall to retrieve the keys and cell phones from Meredith's purse, lock Meredith's door, walk back to the front door, unlock it and leave. He may even have left evidence of this additional crossing where he stopped to lock Meredith's door and an additional drip from his wet pant leg fell on the earlier print at marker 3.

I think Herculan Kokomaniac went back and locked the door.

 

[RandyN]

I have dealt with it at length Bill . The square was empty , it was not a place to hang out . He was not so out of it if he read the paper daily.I listened to a coherent interview on utube with him He would be able to identify a couple hanging around for no good reason on his turf. You have no problem with your Mignini bashing blogger source who is wanted for separate domestic incidents. Quoted in books and relied a upon for evidence on police corruption. To each his own I believe Curatolo thanks. His testimony also fits with the overwhelming evidence that was ignored by Hellman. I think we will hear more of it in the months to come. Wasn't there evidence of bruising by different sized hands for example. It should be interesting.

LOL...yea NO! HTH would one determine that seeing as the hand is quite a flexible instrument...it bends, twists, the fingers move from tiny pinch sizes to large basketball griping positions. But I like your thinking...it falls perfectly into line of the illogical screwed up Italian logic. LOL different sized hands...please some cites on this one...

It wont be interesting unless you consider it interesting just how far the Italians are willing to go in this assault on rational thought...forget the lack of evidence...

 

[RandyN]

Yep, it will be frozen in time for all to see, as will the Court of Cassation's ridiculous ruling that Amanda and Raffaele were effectively found guilty at a trial in which they weren't defendants. Doesn't this bother the PGP at all that Italy has a unique system of justice in which the Supreme Court rules both a citizen and a foreigner are guilty as a preface to their trial? They are going to be ridiculed for a hundred years when word of this gets out.

I'll bet when the news of this reaches the gulags in Russia, the prisoners will say, "Well, good thing we're not in Italy, where you have to read the paper every day to see if you have been found guilty of a crime during another person's trial. At least we don't have to worry about that."

The Russians dont need to see this to decide it is far worse in Italy. According to the European Court of Human Rights...and for the same time period Italy had 2,012 violations by its courts vs Russia 155 violations. Italy is worse than anyone by far. They are a third world backward country whose people get their news from the censored tabloid media...because that is all they have apparently.

 

[Antony]

Is the ISC evaluating evedence? If they are going beyond ruling on procedures as allowed in the italian legal system, this would be a much clearer violation of double jeporty for a US citizen.

This is my reaction as well. Of course I haven't seen an English translation of the ISC motivations - only press reports - but from what we have there seems no doubt that they have acted illegally.

They have confirmed the single conviction on callunia, which is dripping with legal issues, and struck down the acquittals over quibbles based on wholly tenuous items of evidence.

 

[RandyN]

I see your point. However, I have a hard time taking that testimony at face value based on this physical fact:

--there was no room on any surface in any of the videos or photographs for a laptop. All were cluttered with numerous items, none of which readily appeared to have been disturbed.

I have not been able to find a transcript of her testimony, so I am not sure what she said. I doubt she would lie, but I don't know where she said that computer was. I don't see any "glass shadows" in the photos. So all I know is that things were moved around, and that her testimony as it has been described does not fit any of the scenes well.

Also keep in mind that the scene was disturbed as many as three separate times over the course of at least three hours. Romanelli only went in once.

I am not suggesting wrongdoing by anyone. I am saying there were a lot of things moved around under the window in Romanelli's room, and that they appear to have been moved in separate events.

I am sure no one was thinking that the position of the glass might have been important, and why would they? Clearly a window had been broken, and the body was in another room. I don't think any police could have anticipated the importance of the scene at the window.

Really really? A murder has occurred in the home. A window is broken out and you don't think any police could have anticipated the importance of that scene? Really? Really?

Well perhaps the dumbest police in the world could not see the imporatnce maybe and that appears to be what we are dealing with here but really? Mignini and some boneheaded cop theorized the rock toss was impossible since the shutters were only open 11 inches...as if they were somehow frozen against the blowing November wind. More likely they were blowing open and shut all night long.

 

[Bill Williams]

This is my reaction as well. Of course I haven't seen an English translation of the ISC motivations - only press reports - but from what we have there seems no doubt that they have acted illegally.

They have confirmed the single conviction on callunia, which is dripping with legal issues, and struck down the acquittals over quibbles based on wholly tenuous items of evidence.

Can a national Supreme court act "illegally"? They are the one who rule what is legal and illegal! There's constant reference here to a court above national courts located in the European Union.... will they really interfere? That would be more a political act than a legal one.

 

[Bill Williams]

I have dealt with it at length Bill . The square was empty , it was not a place to hang out . He was not so out of it if he read the paper daily.I listened to a coherent interview on utube with him He would be able to identify a couple hanging around for no good reason on his turf. You have no problem with your Mignini bashing blogger source who is wanted for separate domestic incidents. Quoted in books and relied a upon for evidence on police corruption. To each his own I believe Curatolo thanks. His testimony also fits with the overwhelming evidence that was ignored by Hellman. I think we will hear more of it in the months to come. Wasn't there evidence of bruising by different sized hands for example. It should be interesting.

LOL...yea NO! HTH would one determine that seeing as the hand is quite a flexible instrument...it bends, twists, the fingers move from tiny pinch sizes to large basketball griping positions. But I like your thinking...it falls perfectly into line of the illogical screwed up Italian logic. LOL different sized hands...please some cites on this one...

It wont be interesting unless you consider it interesting just how far the Italians are willing to go in this assault on rational thought...forget the lack of evidence...

Guilter logic here. Evidence of bruising by different sized hands is what Briars claims, some no court has ever received evidence of.... yet if such bruising was THAT noticable, would not the scenario get into the territory of transfer DNA from those doing such a fierce job of restraining - such DNA not found on Meredith? Not a hair or any skin under jer nails, nor transfer to areas grsped so firmly that nbot only is she completely restrained, but the size of hands can be id'ed?

This is what guilters are claiming - a claim with nary a mention in now three trials (given that the ISC seems to be making copious reference to fact-finding in relation to evidence)?

Once again, guilter provide a scenario which has to be severe enough to leave identifiable-sized hand prints, but still delicate enough to not leave transfer DNA or the kind of "biological material" Massei claimed came off of the perps which was mixed with Meredith's blood as a result of cleaning the blood from themselves.

This is a lot like the guilter demand that Knox be the wiliest & smartest fabricator, anticipating police strategy to ply them with expert misdirection and never once in hours of taped conversation give away the plan or even hint it existed... but also dumb enough to think a staged break-in would fool the cops. Compare the mistakes and "awkward lies" the guilters list which are stupid mistakes, against the supernatural control Knox exercised over the coverup...

Sometime down the road you're going to have to come to terms that both Raffaele and Amanda were naive kids, really, completely out of their league in anything resembling "street life". And Knox barely spoke the language, and cuki777 has a 12 minute period in his/her timeline where Knox inexplicably gives Rudy the kitchen knife to go steal rent money from Meredith.

Sheesh.

 

[RandyN]

I tend to agree. The first video is at 3:12. I have always assumed she grabbed her computer before then. But even if she waited until they all went downstairs a few minutes later to make the grab, it would not matter. The scene recorded at 3:12 differs from the next record, which differs from the next record, which differs from the next record.

You have multiple events of the crime scene under the window being disturbed.

Because I want to visit the Coliseum one day, let me say clearly I am not accusing the police or Ms. Romanelli of wrongdoing. As noted, the body was in another room, this was an obvious break in, and the position of the glass would not seem remotely relevant at the time. The police could have had absolutely no way of knowing that it would matter later.

Such an illogical conclusion you needed two posts to make it? What makes the murder and the break in unrelated and obscure for you? Im not a detective nor do I play one on TV but even I would know that the broken window was critically important evidence that was certainly related to the murder. It is just stupid to not secure the whole scene and yet we know things were moved and modified...

How did you like the turning right side out of the inside out sleeves of the blood covered outer jacket worn by MK as she was murdered? And how do you feel about the fact that this blood covered outer jacket was not even collected until Dec 18th? Also apparently missed were bloody shoes and socks and they even forgot to take the purse sitting on the frigging bed!

Well how could they know those things might be important later right?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I expect we all will hear much more of the evidence which convinced the first court. The prosecution video demonstrates there was indeed room for all three. Meredith was turned over after the fatal attack and clothing was removed for the purpose of staging.The dying victim needed to be in a position to try to disguise the group attack. Someone even pointed out how a square object on the floor had been removed for some reason. Amanda's lamp was left on the floor again for some purpose. I have no idea who made the fatal blow. The SC is certain that the rest of the cottage was altered or cleaned , and who might take the time for that?

One of the first things John Douglas concluded when he looked at the crime scene photos was that they clearly depicted an attack by one assailant. Same with the wounds shown in the autopsy photos... one guy, holding the victim from behind.

If Nadeau's article is any indication, the court has based its multiple attacker claim on erroneous facts from Micheli's pretrial report, as follows:

- Micheli claimed Meredith's bra was removed well after her death, because the bra was covered with aspirated blood droplets, whereas the area it covered was not. In fact, the photos show that Meredith's breasts were covered with this same aspirated blood spray, thereby proving the opposite. She was still breathing when the bra was ripped (not cut) from her body.

- Micheli noticed a bloodstain on Meredith's back, which he took to be the result of prolonged contact with the blood-soaked bra strap before the bra was removed. In fact, this bloodstain was caused by contact with a seam in the floor tiles. The photos prove that unambiguously.

- Micheli claimed that the quilt covering Meredith's body had no significant bloodstains, so it must have been placed over her body after blood had begun to dry. But frames from the crime scene video show that portions of the quilt are soaked through with blood.

The PGP don't care about facts, so they won't care about these factual errors. But some people do care about facts. If the court report really does contain the points Nadeau described, it will be easy enough to demonstrate to the media and US gov't officials that it is a mockery of justice.

 

[RandyN]

Can a national Supreme court act "illegally"? They are the one who rule what is legal and illegal! There's constant reference here to a court above national courts located in the European Union.... will they really interfere? That would be more a political act than a legal one.

The Italian SC is not even the final word in Italy...in 2000 Hellmann was part of a three judge panel that overturned a murder conviction that passed all three phases for the case. Turns out the guy was found innocent after all.

The ECOHR will not automatically review this case...in fact they wont even look until the final decision is made and then only if someone files a complaint.