Noam Chomsky: Sports is a capitalist conspiracy

[Travis]

I didn't say it was, I quite like distractions myself

but noting that sport is a distraction, or suggesting that sport gets the high amount of media attention that it does, at least partially, because it is a distraction, or even by implying, as Chomsky does, that distractions are inherenty bad is not the same as saying that sport is a capitalist conspiracy.

Gotcha.

I too think distractions are nice. I was just worried that people might be falling into the trap of thinking of what they do as worthy of time and money while what other people do as a waste.

I mean if you decide to spend your time and money on sports, or LARPs, broadswords or whatever I don't have a problem with it.

 

[squealpiggy]

Gotcha.

I too think distractions are nice. I was just worried that people might be falling into the trap of thinking of what they do as worthy of time and money while what other people do as a waste.

I mean if you decide to spend your time and money on sports, or LARPs, broadswords or whatever I don't have a problem with it.

It's also worthy to point out that sports are not a mere distraction to owners of teams, players in teams, managers of teams, coaches, medical staff, support staff, the people that clean the uniforms, the people who steward the games, the people who sell the tickets, the people who sell the programs, the people who sell food and drink, the people who sell the team memorabilia...

And that's just the people directly involved in the team itself. You have the people who sell and manufacture the sporting goods they sell, the food, the beverages, the people in media who film and comment on the sports, the service providers of cable or satellite TV who use sport as a major draw, then you have people who provide transportation to and from the games, people who police the games, and that's not even getting into the owners and employees of businesses like bars and restaurant who rely on sporting events for their wages, tips and margin.

Same as other worthless entertainment businesses.

 

[bobwtfomg]

The word that he uses to describe enjoyment of sports as a popular diversion is training. His use in context implies the existence of someone conducting the training.

No actually in context

I suddenly asked myself at one point, why do I care if my high school team wins the football game? [laughter] I mean, I don't know anybody on the team, you know? [audience roars] I mean, they have nothing to do with me, I mean, why I am cheering for my team? It doesn't mean any -- it doesn't make sense. But the point is, it does make sense: it's a way of building up irrational attitudes of submission to authority, and group cohesion behind leadership elements -- in fact, it's training in irrational jingoism.

So he doesn't describe the general enjoyment of sports as a popular diversion as training, but is describing the culture of being expected to support your school team even if you have no personal connection with the players, as a training in jingoism. This doesn't neccessarily imply a trainer.

Describing an experience as a training in X, does not imply that someone has set out to train you in X. e.g. for me personally reading Von Daniken's books uncritically in my early teens and subsequently becoming aware they were BS was a training in skepticism.

 

[arthwollipot]

Except, of course, the same could be said for many other activities. Why single out sports for this criticism?

Um, because that's what the thread's about?

 

[Damien Evans]

It's not ridiculous to say sports have elements of indoctrination and jingoism. Ever wonder why they play the national anthem before sporting events?

I don't think you've understood well what Chomsky was saying. For one, where does he say this is exclusively relevant to "capitalistic" societies?

In general, you've oversimplified, and conflated the actual extent of his argument.

At any rate, if you don't think organized professional sports are some form of indoctrination and diversion, then I'd say they've done their job quite nicely.
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No, because the only competition I know of where they do outside the USA (Other than between countries) is the NRL here in Australia and New Zealand. So that's a very very tiny percentage of sporting events where the national anthem is played beforehand.

 

[Puppycow]

Let's face it, an obscene amount of money is poured into sports that otherwise could feed the poor, wipe out the national debt - of several countries - ensure every child got a good education and develop clean renewable power for the world, and still have change for lunch.

Agreed. Not that there is no value in sports, but that the price we pay (monetarily and otherwise) isn't commiserate with the value outside of the distraction. It's a distraction we (as societies) seem to value highly.

But I play video games and go to anime conventions which are pretty much the same thing with different levels of plusses and minuses (less competition for one).

Well let's look at the actual numbers and see if this is true.

Here's what I could find:
By the Numbers: How Americans Spend Their Money

Professional Sports: $25.4 billion
(WR Hambrecht)

(That's per year.) Perhaps we should add college sports to that. I'm having trouble finding a total figure for that, but it does appear that a lot of money is spent on college sports too. I'll guestimate another $12 billion.
Let's round it up to $50 billion as a ballpark figure to include all the other ways we spend money on sports besides professional and college.

Could we "wipe out the national debt" with an extra $50 billion per year? No. The deficit this year alone is forecast to exceed $600 billion. As for the other things, I don't know exactly how much those cost, but figure that we already "feed the poor" (food stamps) and "educate every child" (the public school system) as part of the budget which is in deficit.

Here's some other things from the above article:

Alternative Medicine: $33.9 Billion
(Consumer Reports)

Credit Card Late Fees: $18 billion
(RK Hammer)

Ringtones: $5 billion worldwide
(NY Times)

Soft Drinks: $65 billion
(National Soft Drinks Association)

Easter: $16.8 billion
(National Retail Association)

Gambling: $34.6 billion
(American Gaming Association)

Engagement and Wedding Rings: $11 billion
(Knot Market Intelligence)

Video Games: $17 billion dollars
(NPD Group)

etc.

 

[arthwollipot]

Well let's look at the actual numbers and see if this is true.

Here's what I could find:
By the Numbers: How Americans Spend Their Money

Yeah. I was talking globally. And you're not including all the money that is spent on constructing stadiums, creating and broadcasting television channels, and oh yeah paying players.

Maybe I was engaging in hyperbole - which I admit was a mistake - but when I used the word "obscene" to describe the amount of money that the world spends on sports, I chose that word carefully. I also use that word to describe how much money Donald Trump has.

 

[Puppycow]

Yeah. I was talking globally.

OK, but then the costs of doing all those things (feeding the poor, educating all the children, paying off national debts, etc.) should be global too. So I doubt it makes much difference. Just add an extra zero on the end of each figure for both sides of the equation.

And you're not including all the money that is spent on constructing stadiums, creating and broadcasting television channels, and oh yeah paying players.

I don't know how the article arrived at that figure exactly, but I figured it includes those costs. Certainly the cost of paying the players comes from the money that sports fans spend on tickets and TV networks pay to the leagues. Some of the money for building stadiums comes from taxpayers. Whether they included that in the figure is unknown.

Maybe I was engaging in hyperbole - which I admit was a mistake - but when I used the word "obscene" to describe the amount of money that the world spends on sports, I chose that word carefully. I also use that word to describe how much money Donald Trump has.

Fair enough. I guess it's a valid point, although I can think of some things we spend money on that are more wasteful imho: cigarettes, gambling, alternative medicine, SUVs for people who don't need them, crap from infomercials and the Shopping Network, etc.

 

[squealpiggy]

No, because the only competition I know of where they do outside the USA (Other than between countries) is the NRL here in Australia and New Zealand. So that's a very very tiny percentage of sporting events where the national anthem is played beforehand.

This is correct, the USA and Canada play the national anthem before sporting events but in Britain you never hear it unless it is a contest between two teams or individuals that are representing their countries. I know a lot of Canadian teams are often playing American teams but if you think that the Toronto Maple Leafs represent Canada then you need to talk to someone from Ottawa!

 

[Corsair 115]

It's also worthy to point out that sports are not a mere distraction to owners of teams, players in teams, managers of teams, coaches, medical staff, support staff, the people that clean the uniforms, the people who steward the games, the people who sell the tickets, the people who sell the programs, the people who sell food and drink, the people who sell the team memorabilia...

And that's just the people directly involved in the team itself. You have the people who sell and manufacture the sporting goods they sell, the food, the beverages, the people in media who film and comment on the sports, the service providers of cable or satellite TV who use sport as a major draw, then you have people who provide transportation to and from the games, people who police the games, and that's not even getting into the owners and employees of businesses like bars and restaurant who rely on sporting events for their wages, tips and margin.

Same as other worthless entertainment businesses.

^^^^This. Some people tend to forget that professional sports is a business first and foremost, and always has been.

Um, because that's what the thread's about?

So then next week I can expect Mr. Chomsky to complain about movies as a distraction? Then the week after that novels? Followed up by fishing? Then posting on a message forum? If so, he'll be busy for a long time as there are a great many distractions to cover!

 

[Corsair 115]

It's not ridiculous to say sports have elements of indoctrination and jingoism. Ever wonder why they play the national anthem before sporting events?

According to this article, it didn't happen until U.S. entry into WWI, and then only by chance by a band deciding to play it. It made a resurgence during WWII, and then stuck around after the war simply because by then it had become the accepted practice.

 

[WildCat]

At least one difference is if a video game designer or anime creator rapes a girl or two, or gets caught with a few bricks of Colombian candy cane, he will likely see the inside of a prison for more than a few weeks.

There's a former Bears wide receiver doing much more than "a few weeks" in prison for drugs. And you may recall what happened to Mike Tyson when he raped a girl.

I don't know what country you live in.

 

[lane99]

Doctor of Thinkology

Is the OP a dishonest strawman?...

That was the first thing that occurred to me when I actually read the quotes cited. Still I assumed good faith and chalked the OP up to muddled thinking.
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[Mycroft]

...it offers people something to pay attention to that's of no importance. [audience laughs] That keeps them from worrying about -- [applause] keeps them from worrying about things that matter to their lives that they might have some idea of doing something about. ...

Also, it's a false choice between paying attention to sports or paying attention to social issues. One can easily pay attention to both, or neither. Take away the sports and a person could devote that extra time to social issues, or any number of an infinite selection of other diversions.

 

[The Big Dog]

Really, he pandered to the audience about how he was a loser in high school?

Don't care, I'm a damn fine athlete and my kids are better, Noam.

What an asshat. Applause....

 

[Puppycow]

Really, he pandered to the audience about how he was a loser in high school?

Don't care, I'm a damn fine athlete and my kids are better, Noam.

What an asshat. Applause....

Clearly he was preaching to the choir there.

For the people calling straw man, yeah, he didn't say capitalism, but he did connect it with jingoism. It's still a rather odd perspective to look at sports. He seems to assume that the people who follow sports and root for certain teams are too distracted by it to follow politics as well. But people can, as they say, walk and chew gum at the same time. I follow politics and also sports.

In some ways sports can offer a more benign alternative than nationalist jingoism or religious sectarianism. Although in some cases fans can take it too seriously. Sometimes riots break out after sports games, like in Vancouver a couple years ago or the soccer riots in Egypt that led to dozens of deaths.

I sort of look at religion in the same way that Chomsky looks at sports. Religious people enjoy what they do I assume, whereas I see it as a waste of time and money, and also as a way to condition people to obey authority and identify with a sort of "tribe". Saying that would probably seem as odd to religious people as Chomsky's rant would seem to sports fans.

 

[Watanabe]

Where did Chmosky said exactly that sports is a conspiracy?

I'm not very interested in sports myself, but come on! This is ridiculous!

Chomsky is right.
The sheeple love to talk about Tiger Woods and Messi.
The stars make millions and the sheeple lose money and time.
You can add cimena actors like Gandolfini to the group of stars.

History lesson: Some sort of sports/competitive games has been practiced in pretty much every culture on Earth. The Greeks may be the most well-known, but Germanic, Celtic, Eurasian steppe nomads, etc all had some sort of competitive games. A few months ago I read that Afghanistan had started practice its national sport that was prohibited during the Taliban era. I don't remember the name of the game, but they rode on horses while fighting for a dead goat, and was brought to the area by the Mongols during the Middle Ages. Evil Western capitalists trying to distract the Afghans by letting them do sports.

History lesson: people were using leeches..

Also, it's a false choice between paying attention to sports or paying attention to social issues. One can easily pay attention to both, or neither. Take away the sports and a person could devote that extra time to social issues, or any number of an infinite selection of other diversions.

Most people do not have time to look for both

 

[The Big Dog]

Where did Chmosky said exactly that sports is a conspiracy?


Chomsky is right.
The sheeple love to talk about Tiger Woods and Messi.
The stars make millions and the sheeple lose money and time.
You can add cimena actors like Gandolfini to the group of stars.

History lesson: people were using leeches..

Lolz, there has never been a post in the history of the Internet that has used the word "sheeple" unironically that has not been a complete waste of electrons.

And yours, sport, is no exception. *********** worthless.

 

[Checkmite]

No actually in context



So he doesn't describe the general enjoyment of sports as a popular diversion as training, but is describing the culture of being expected to support your school team even if you have no personal connection with the players, as a training in jingoism. This doesn't neccessarily imply a trainer.

I don't agree; the pertinent part of the context merely exists outside the small portion you quoted. Both preceding it:

Take, say, sports -- that's another crucial example of the indoctrination system, in my view.

Who's "indoctrination system"? Well, anybody who is familiar with Chomsky's body of work knows full well he's not talking about people somehow accidentally indoctrinating themselves; and if by some chance someone weren't, the sentences following that line make it clearer.

There's also this, which followed the segment you quoted,

That's also a feature of competitive sports. I think if you look closely at these things, I think, typically, they do have functions, and that's why energy is devoted to supporting them and creating a basis for them and advertisers are willing to pay for them and so on.

This indicates he is considering all sports, including professional, and not merely the specific case of high school sports as you argue (which are not supported by advertisers in any meaningful sense). But again the allusion is made: who is devoting the energy to supporting and creating a basis for sports? Obviously it must be somebody who wishes to exploit their "function", as Chomsky put it, of distracting people from other, more important things that they might otherwise "do something about" (again, as Chomsky put it).

Chomsky hasn't even made a secret of his belief that Americans are basically cattle, manipulated by a "powerful elite"; it seems rather a waste of time to argue that in this one case that's not what he's talking about. I'm actually somewhat surprised to see anybody doing it.

 

[bobwtfomg]

Where did Chmosky said exactly that sports is a conspiracy?

He didn't, this OP is a (hey everybody let's all ridicule Chomsky) strawman, what the OP could've said if he/she really wanted to start a reasonable disscussion about this is something like "here's what Chomsky said over 20 years ago in a radio interview which IMO implies he thinks sports are a conspiracy"

Chomsky is right.

About what exactly? From your next few lines I don't think you've understood the points he's trying to make.

The sheeple love to talk about Tiger Woods and Messi.
The stars make millions and the sheeple lose money and time.

Calling people "sheeple" makes you sound like an arrogant fool and is counter productive if you want anyone here to take your opinions seriously unless of course you're just here to try and wind people up.
IMO Chomsky's not mocking people for being interested in sport or talking about inequities in stars pay rates, but explaining the huge amount of attention payed to sport in the mass media in institutional terms and in a way which he admits himself, in the paragraph before the one quoted in the OP, is an oversimplification.