• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'm sure it has but regardless, you can not blame Filomena or any of the others, at that time they had no idea there was also a murder. I also believe we have to take Filomena's word on the glass on top of items, especially her computer which she left on the table but found on the floor, she had to wipe the glass off of it. Either she is lying, or a break in seem unlikely, I see no reason for her to lie at all.

The crime scene photos have nothing to do with Filomena moving things before they took photos and videos.

Do you think that the perps threw her computer on the floor if it was even moved? I handle all computers gently and if stealing one I wouldn't want to break it. If she remembers correctly that it was on the table it doesn't seem inconsistent that glass would remain there after moving it.
 
Dan O., I seem to recall that you looked into whether or not there was internet access at the women's flat. Do you recall anything about this?


Yes, that was in Amanda's Myspace entry September 2, 2007...
the next three days are great. we figure out how to find a bus somewhat close to our hotel that will take us downtown. once there we make friends with the two workers at this cafe that we visit everyday. deanna wants to shop some more, but i need to find a place to live, so i search desperately through italian classifieds. i also buy a phone. then, when we walk down a steep road to my university, we run into a very skinny girl who looks a little older than me putting up a page with her number on the outer wall of the unviersity. i chat it up with her, she speaks english really well, and we go immediately to her place, literally 2minntes walk from my university. it’s a cute house that is right in the middle of this random garden int he middle of perugia. around us are apartment buildings, but we enter through a gate and there it is. im in love. i meet her roommate molly. the house has a kitchen, 2 bathrooms, and four bathrooms. not to mention a washing maschine, and internet access. not to mention, she owns two guitars and wants to play with me. not to mention the view is amazing. not to mention


Of course, it could all be a lie as Amanda is obviously already planning to murder her new roommate that hasn't even moved in yet. How dare that Meredith take the larger room with the view that Amanda thinks is amazing.


Oh, just one more thing...

From the same MySpace page:
one more awesome thing. i read the first harry potter in german, and it wasnt hard at all. i only looked up stuff for the first chapter, but it was distracting, and as i went long i figured out the vocabulary i didnt know before from the contexts of the situations, and by the end of it, i was reading it like english. today’s sunday, so no stores are open, but im going to go tomorrow to a book store to get the second. i bought the thrid harry pooter in italian in perugia, but i cant read it yet. i dont know enough vocabulary yet to even get the contexts. but let it be known, that im becoming fluent because of harry potter. there you go.


She can't even read the third Harry Potter book in Italian yet in only 2 months she is able to handle Italian legal documents like a native.
 
Last edited:
Are you for real? He testified that he was a daily heroin user in Hellmann's court.

1. A narcotics addict, especially one using heroin.

He spoke in Italian so no he didn't use the word junkie. Did Dan O call himself an Internet Junkie? You did.

So, you consider anyone who uses heroin daily is a junkie, that's ok, but I doubt they do. Does it have to be heroin, Amanda may have used weed everyday, that is a drug as well, was she a junkie as well.

Also, I didn't call Dan an internet junkie alone, just the many on both side of this (PIP's and PGP's) To some extent, I am as well. A junkie isn't necessarily a bad thing, even a drug junkie, I bet Toto was a fine gentleman, but again, how would I know, right....
 
I'm sure it has but regardless, you can not blame Filomena or any of the others, at that time they had no idea there was also a murder. I also believe we have to take Filomena's word on the glass on top of items, especially her computer which she left on the table but found on the floor, she had to wipe the glass off of it. Either she is lying, or a break in seem unlikely, I see no reason for her to lie at all.

I see your point. However, I have a hard time taking that testimony at face value based on this physical fact:

--there was no room on any surface in any of the videos or photographs for a laptop. All were cluttered with numerous items, none of which readily appeared to have been disturbed.

I have not been able to find a transcript of her testimony, so I am not sure what she said. I doubt she would lie, but I don't know where she said that computer was. I don't see any "glass shadows" in the photos. So all I know is that things were moved around, and that her testimony as it has been described does not fit any of the scenes well.

Also keep in mind that the scene was disturbed as many as three separate times over the course of at least three hours. Romanelli only went in once.

I am not suggesting wrongdoing by anyone. I am saying there were a lot of things moved around under the window in Romanelli's room, and that they appear to have been moved in separate events.

I am sure no one was thinking that the position of the glass might have been important, and why would they? Clearly a window had been broken, and the body was in another room. I don't think any police could have anticipated the importance of the scene at the window.
 
No sense in guessing, perhaps Meredith was a little more 'active' than what is let on, still would need to know who's dna it is and talk with them. Raff's own dna on there could have a simple explanation as well, perhaps when he arrived on Nov 1st, while Meredith was still asleep, he pick her bra up off the cloths rack and willed it around until Amanda made him stop. I head this mentioned before, who knows, you would think they would have said so, though.

Given that he lacked experience with bras perhaps he grabbed it off the rack at some point and practiced with it. Wouldn't be something one would bring up at the beginning and wouldn't sound right after the DNA was found.

The clasp evidence is just very weak because it was found day one yet disappeared and then was found 47 days later under a rug on the floor. The other DNA s weaken it further and the fact that Rudi's is found on the other part of the bra but not Raf's makes it even weaker.

One must ask how Raf could be involved with direct contact in the murder room and leave only this on tiny bit behind?
 
The crime scene photos have nothing to do with Filomena moving things before they took photos and videos.

Do you think that the perps threw her computer on the floor if it was even moved? I handle all computers gently and if stealing one I wouldn't want to break it. If she remembers correctly that it was on the table it doesn't seem inconsistent that glass would remain there after moving it.

I'm pretty sure she stated it was on the floor, it's Amanda that said it was on the table, she probably didn't see when Raff put it on the floor......
 
The crime scene photos have nothing to do with Filomena moving things before they took photos and videos.
.

I tend to agree. The first video is at 3:12. I have always assumed she grabbed her computer before then. But even if she waited until they all went downstairs a few minutes later to make the grab, it would not matter. The scene recorded at 3:12 differs from the next record, which differs from the next record, which differs from the next record.

You have multiple events of the crime scene under the window being disturbed.

Because I want to visit the Coliseum one day, let me say clearly I am not accusing the police or Ms. Romanelli of wrongdoing. As noted, the body was in another room, this was an obvious break in, and the position of the glass would not seem remotely relevant at the time. The police could have had absolutely no way of knowing that it would matter later.
 
Off PMF only. I got a little more heated with them than I should have, my redneck pride having been pricked, and I felt it best to back away from that board for a while. That was both for penance and for prudence.

In the meantime, I had a jury trial cancel. I am all revved up and no place to go, so I am burning off a little energy here before getting back to the more humdrum tasks in the life of a litigator.




A rare treat to my ears, good sir.



Yes. Intellectually, I have conflated it into a presumption of innocence, but it is still what I think. That said, the evidence drives this train.

What do you think about the movement of the crime scene in Romanelli's bedroom? Has this horse already been beaten to death?

Looking for glass outside was part of the investigation. It lined up a little too perfectly on the sill suggesting an inside toss with shutters closed. Romanelli's closet was ransacked and the open closet door blocked the glass from landing on her neatly made bed. So was the closet door opened before the rock toss? Was she really a slob who left clothes all over the floor with glass landing on top , or did she leave her room and bed tidy?
 
From WTBH:

“Oh my God, someone broke in!” I shouted to Raffaele, who was right behind me. In the next instant, I spotted Filomena’s laptop and digital camera sitting on the desk.

Knox, Amanda (2013-04-30). Waiting to Be Heard: A Memoir (p. 68). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

I have a hard time buying that too. I just don't see where they could have been on the desk or the bedside table, both of which were cluttered with upright, apparently undisturbed items.
 
I see your point. However, I have a hard time taking that testimony at face value based on this physical fact:

--there was no room on any surface in any of the videos or photographs for a laptop. All were cluttered with numerous items, none of which readily appeared to have been disturbed.

I have not been able to find a transcript of her testimony, so I am not sure what she said. I doubt she would lie, but I don't know where she said that computer was. I don't see any "glass shadows" in the photos. So all I know is that things were moved around, and that her testimony as it has been described does not fit any of the scenes well.

Also keep in mind that the scene was disturbed as many as three separate times over the course of at least three hours. Romanelli only went in once.

I am not suggesting wrongdoing by anyone. I am saying there were a lot of things moved around under the window in Romanelli's room, and that they appear to have been moved in separate events.

I am sure no one was thinking that the position of the glass might have been important, and why would they? Clearly a window had been broken, and the body was in another room. I don't think any police could have anticipated the importance of the scene at the window.


Keep in mind though, those pictures that were taken, were taken well after thing had been moved about in the room, Filomena was checking for missing items, she was sure to move many things.
 
From WTBH:

“Oh my God, someone broke in!” I shouted to Raffaele, who was right behind me. In the next instant, I spotted Filomena’s laptop and digital camera sitting on the desk.

Knox, Amanda (2013-04-30). Waiting to Be Heard: A Memoir (p. 68). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

I have a hard time buying that too. I just don't see where they could have been on the desk or the bedside table, both of which were cluttered with upright, apparently undisturbed items.

Amanda has stated that several times that I have read, yet Filomena testified she found it on the floor with glass on top. I'll see if I can find a quote for that somewhere for you.
 
Looking for glass outside was part of the investigation. It lined up a little too perfectly on the sill suggesting an inside toss with shutters closed.

I see that. All I am saying is that if I had walked onto this crime scene, my first thought would not have been "gotta preserve this glass evidence." So i am not faulting the police for moving things around.

I am trying to be careful about things like that because a lot of ink has been spilled on both sides saying a lot of reckless things. I try to be a reasonable and moderate man (until I get the rouge derriere about something!). So while I think the crime scene under the window was absolutely disturbed, I don't want people hauling off and making inferences of misconduct.

I take it as established fact that the photos do not show the original crime scene under the window.

Further, because the window was moved, it is possible that the glass on the sill might be partly in question. I am not there yet.

Romanelli's closet was ransacked and the open closet door blocked the glass from landing on her neatly made bed. So was the closet door opened before the rock toss? Was she really a slob who left clothes all over the floor with glass landing on top , or did she leave her room and bed tidy?

I am cataloging what can be plainly proven. I am not making inferences yet.
 
Keep in mind though, those pictures that were taken, were taken well after thing had been moved about in the room, Filomena was checking for missing items, she was sure to move many things.


Now that is a fair point. She could have placed items where the laptop had been.

Do we know that she snagged the laptop before the 3:12 police video? That would be a good thing to try to establish.
 
Given that he lacked experience with bras perhaps he grabbed it off the rack at some point and practiced with it. Wouldn't be something one would bring up at the beginning and wouldn't sound right after the DNA was found.

The clasp evidence is just very weak because it was found day one yet disappeared and then was found 47 days later under a rug on the floor. The other DNA s weaken it further and the fact that Rudi's is found on the other part of the bra but not Raf's makes it even weaker.

One must ask how Raf could be involved with direct contact in the murder room and leave only this on tiny bit behind?[/QUOTE]

Well, you just gave one example there, I gave another, no idea how likely either are. The bra clasp is definitely a mystery, I have no good answer for it.
 
Now that is a fair point. She could have placed items where the laptop had been.

Do we know that she snagged the laptop before the 3:12 police video? That would be a good thing to try to establish.

I believe by 3:12 the lot were down in the police station, it may say in WTBH, but I'm not positive.
 
Given that he lacked experience with bras perhaps he grabbed it off the rack at some point and practiced with it. Wouldn't be something one would bring up at the beginning and wouldn't sound right after the DNA was found.
This is fanciful IMO.

The clasp evidence is just very weak because it was found day one yet disappeared and then was found 47 days later under a rug on the floor. The other DNA s weaken it further and the fact that Rudi's is found on the other part of the bra but not Raf's makes it even weaker.

One must ask how Raf could be involved with direct contact in the murder room and leave only this on tiny bit behind?
I am told (by the publication) that the Mirror's online article of 17 Dec 2007 was not an online article but something in the newspaper which would have been posted online as a matter of routine. I am still trying to find out how the Mirror had a story about DNA (even if Rudy's) on the bra clasp the day before it was 'found'. Making due allowance for Chinese whispers, mis-reporting, mis-translation (I don't think these papers put boots on the ground that don't speak the local langage fluently - think how stupid that would be for a newspaper) etc. it cannot mean nothing that this very specific reference was made a day in advance. The whole thing was redolent of fraud before this report re-surfaced (thanks to Dan). I would like it explained. I think some cop heard something and blabbed a garbled version.
 
I see that. All I am saying is that if I had walked onto this crime scene, my first thought would not have been "gotta preserve this glass evidence." So i am not faulting the police for moving things around.

I am trying to be careful about things like that because a lot of ink has been spilled on both sides saying a lot of reckless things. I try to be a reasonable and moderate man (until I get the rouge derriere about something!). So while I think the crime scene under the window was absolutely disturbed, I don't want people hauling off and making inferences of misconduct.

I take it as established fact that the photos do not show the original crime scene under the window.

Further, because the window was moved, it is possible that the glass on the sill might be partly in question. I am not there yet.



I am cataloging what can be plainly proven. I am not making inferences yet.

MattJones - you've already suggested that a claim which comes from a source which might have cause to quash the claim, tends to be believable....

John Follain, in "Death in Italy", a friend to the prosecution and who often claims to know the very thoughts of police and prosecutor makes a, to me, astonishing claim.

It is that under instruction from the Postal Police, before the horrible discovery, went in and "rummaged through her room."

To someone with my own set of biases, that would be the kind of thing Follain might conveniently omit from his narrative, because it tends to suggest that whatever anyone later thought about Filomena's room, they simply were not looking at the condition of the room following Rudy's break-in.

Ok, that's my bias, and I believe it to be a fair bias and a reasonable assumption. It might not be for you. It obviously is not for Briars. But my point is that an author closely connected to preserving the reputations of the PLE.... he's the one who says, "Filomena rummaged through her room".

What did he mean by that? He doesn't say. But it suggest that Filomena's room was not in a condition, post-horrible discovery, to discern ANYTHING about staging or non-staging.... which is why I come to a conclusion of a real break-in on other grounds.

One of which is that I do not believe the front door was opened by Knox's key. The police were absolutely right to suspect EVERYONE, Knox included, who held a key that this could be the mode of entry - esp. when Knox, Sollecito and Lumumba were rightly or wrongly in the PLE sites.

The absolute mystery is that when Rudy Guede entered the scene - first by the vehicle of forensics pointing to one and only one unsub, and then when Rudy was captured in Germany..... the case was essentially solved. Rudy alone is something supported by the forensics in Meredith's room, and.....

.... the condition of Filomena's room is so compromised that no one, really, has the right to discern that the break-in was staged. Esp. when they have Rudy as a sole perp in Meredith's room - unlike AK, RS, and PL, Rudy has the background to do it.

That should have been the "case closed" right there. The tragedy is that PLE and now the ISC is trying to shoehorn in AK and RS, the latter now with a sex-game gone wrong theory that even the PLE gave up on at the first trial!

Two hundred years from now there will be another Occam looking for a razor with which to shave who'll stumble on an archive of this case and wonder what all the fuss was about, trying to shoe-horn two (rather young and somewhat gormless) students into a grisly crime they had nothing to do with.

What's the agenda here?

I am not faulting the police OR Filomena for moving things around. Strangely, they only buttress the exact reaction Amanda and Raffaele had - there's something very odd about this (pre-discovery) scene, but it doesn't add up to murder... until the door is opened; where there is only found the presence of Rudy.

This is not rocket science. No wonder the Italians don't have a space program. Then again, the Chinese do.... so go figure!
 
One of us, one of us, one of us.......
You seem to think what you call disappearing foot prints mean anything, I've already gone over this with you and you don't seem to understand. Perhaps, and just perhaps, I am the one missing something here, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Show me what you are asking and I will try answer, but again, I think were talking about something different.


Show you? It is your claim that Rudy walked out of the bedroom and to the front door leaving a trail of bloody shoe prints and could not have returned to lock that bedroom door. I analyzed those prints and posted my findings with pictures as I did it. You have repeatedly chosen to ignore my findings so I asked you to look at the prints yourself.

I know you are having difficulty with this because the prosecution got it wrong and if the defense addressed it, Massei didn't cover their side in his motivation report. Hellmann never went there because he found there was absolutely no credible evidence for Amanda or Raffaele's involvement in any crime at the cottage so there was no need to hear rebuttals to the side issues. This leaves you without an authority to fall back on so you have to analyze the evidence for yourself.

I asked you to state what you believe the evidence shows the sequence of foot steps was. Can you do that?
 
Now that is a fair point. She could have placed items where the laptop had been.

Do we know that she snagged the laptop before the 3:12 police video? That would be a good thing to try to establish.

− 15:31:51 (1 second): Amanda receives an SMS sent from the number 389/1531078; at this point the cell being used is the one on Via Cappuccinelli 5/A sector 2, where the Questura [police headquarters] is located

Not sure when she got to the police station, but she was there at 3:32. She also received a call at 2:46 but it doesn't say which cell tower picked that one up. At 1:50, she was still at the cottage.
 
Given that he lacked experience with bras perhaps he grabbed it off the rack at some point and practiced with it. Wouldn't be something one would bring up at the beginning and wouldn't sound right after the DNA was found.


That was my speculation early in the case. But it was Meredith's wash day and her laundry was in the machine and had not been moved to the rack yet.


The prosecution has created a conundrum for themselves with this bra clasp. There is no opportunity for Raffaele's DNA to have gotten on the clasp. And that it shows up on one hook along with three other male profiles is screaming to be investigated for possible tampering.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom