Looking for Skeptics

[Quinn]

I can't rule out many events, and put it down to imagination. Too many folk involved. I'm wondering where imagination like this would stem from.

"Putting it down to imagination" is a a massive oversimplification of what people have been suggesting. A more accurate summary would be something like, "putting it down to some combination of misinterpretation, imperfect memory, flawed assumptions, and faulty reasoning fueled by wishful thinking." Of course that's not nearly as succinct or simple as "imagination," but then reality is often neither succinct nor simple. And note that all of those things are experienced by everyone at some point.

When you oversimplify all of that to "putting it down to imagination," that makes it sound like people here are telling you that you're simply crazy -- which, of course, would then make it much easier for you to write us off as a bunch of meanies. But that's not what anyone is saying. Rather, we're saying that it's highly likely that you are mistaken. And there's a world of difference between mistaken and crazy.

Furthermore, numerous people have been quite generous with their time and effort in helping you devise reliable ways to determine whether or not you actually are mistaken. But as I said earlier, until you're willing to seriously consider that possibility -- the possibility that you have been mistaken about these events -- all that effort will have gone to waste.

Remember, open-mindedness must always include being open to the possibility that you're wrong.

 

[jsfisher]

In a very early post in this thread, flaccon, you wrote this:

I am still testing their ability. For example, because they keep going on about "electric cables" and how hey are manipulating them, I realised they weren't actually being recoded. I pressed record (12 secs) and pressed stop, then asked them to repeat a certain phrase, and then pressed playback. It was successful every time. (I hope that made some sense)

"It was successful every time." Perhaps this is a basis for a test protocol. In fact, we can adapt the playing card protocol to this. Would you be willing to give this approach a go?

You will still need someone else, a friend or a relative, who can reliably hear what you hear on the recordings. You'll get to make a recording, ask them to repeat a certain phrase, and confirm its presence on playback, just as you described above, then your friend/relative can listen and validate your claim.

This relies on two things you have said have already worked for you: (1) the spirits repeat phrases for you, and (2) some others hearing exactly what you hear.

 

[Cassidy]

"Putting it down to imagination" is a a massive oversimplification of what people have been suggesting. A more accurate summary would be something like, "putting it down to some combination of misinterpretation, imperfect memory, flawed assumptions, and faulty reasoning fueled by wishful thinking." Of course that's not nearly as succinct or simple as "imagination," but then reality is often neither succinct nor simple. And note that all of those things are experienced by everyone at some point.

When you oversimplify all of that to "putting it down to imagination," that makes it sound like people here are telling you that you're simply crazy -- which, of course, would then make it much easier for you to write us off as a bunch of meanies. But that's not what anyone is saying. Rather, we're saying that it's highly likely that you are mistaken. And there's a world of difference between mistaken and crazy.

Furthermore, numerous people have been quite generous with their time and effort in helping you devise reliable ways to determine whether or not you actually are mistaken. But as I said earlier, until you're willing to seriously consider that possibility -- the possibility that you have been mistaken about these events -- all that effort will have gone to waste.

Remember, open-mindedness must always include being open to the possibility that you're wrong.

Rightly so. An example of how I treat certain possible phenomena. One year to the exact time and date of Mums passing, all the knots in the pine door of my living room glowed red like ember. By the time I'd got a friend to sort a camera, the knots were returning back to normal. I managed to capture some of them fading.

Even though it was the exact time and date of Mums passing, I still searched for a logical answer, and accepted the most likely.

 

[Stray Cat]

Sentences are difficult to follow, gobbeldy gook. Alderbank asked for some kind of beginner's recording. I thought it best to have them try single words.

There is no mention of "difficult to follow gobbeldy gook" on your website (quite the opposite in fact) and until now, it's not something you have mentioned throughout this thread either.

As for thinking it best to have them try single words... Isn't that much like having them try to name a card?

I can't rule out many events, and put it down to imagination. Too many folk involved. I'm wondering where imagination like this would stem from.

Where imagination comes from is irrelevant.
If you get knocked down by a bus, does it matter where the bus comes from?

 

[Cassidy]

In a very early post in this thread, flaccon, you wrote this:



"It was successful every time." Perhaps this is a basis for a test protocol. In fact, we can adapt the playing card protocol to this. Would you be willing to give this approach a go?

You will still need someone else, a friend or a relative, who can reliably hear what you hear on the recordings. You'll get to make a recording, ask them to repeat a certain phrase, and confirm its presence on playback, just as you described above, then your friend/relative can listen and validate your claim.

This relies on two things you have said have already worked for you: (1) the spirits repeat phrases for you, and (2) some others hearing exactly what you hear.

Since remembering this, I've kept with the older recordings. If I say a short phrase, they repeat it back. It is often difficult here, unsure why. but every time I go to others houses, they become louder. That is why I suggested doing a test in both premises. I think it's an interesting test.

 

[abaddon]

<Snip for brevity>

Personally, I think you have written some cogent, thoughtful posts here. Bravo. And anyone who thinks otherwise, needs to think about why you got nominated. Those were extremely well written. Bravo, again. I'm an engineer, and tend to be brief and to the point, but those were brilliant. Keep doing that.

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

Hi again Flaccon,

This thread is quite busy, so I'd like you to take your time, and consider the following.

You have pointed out that you hear your brother's voice.

He is still alive as a regular mammal on this planet. His spirit, if there was such a thing, would still be with him, according to legend. Beside the odd OBE anecdote, all stories about spirits place them firmly in their respective body.

Clearly if your brother's spirit can be heard on a recording at will, he is the one with the superpower. Now that is interesting. (And can be easily tested).

 

[Cassidy]

There is no mention of "difficult to follow gobbeldy gook" on your website (quite the opposite in fact) and until now, it's not something you have mentioned throughout this thread either.

As for thinking it best to have them try single words... Isn't that much like having them try to name a card?


Where imagination comes from is irrelevant.
If you get knocked down by a bus, does it matter where the bus comes from?

It sounds like gobbeldy gook on many recordings, entangled voices will do. If I can't make any of it out, I abandon it. These are the recordings I'm working with now. I just need to bring on the volume more, with louder speakers rather than Audacity.

The cards, we already did that the other night.

 

[Cassidy]

Hi again Flaccon,

This thread is quite busy, so I'd like you to take your time, and consider the following.

You have pointed out that you hear your brother's voice.

He is still alive as a regular mammal on this planet. His spirit, if there was such a thing, would still be with him, according to legend. Beside the odd OBE anecdote, all stories about spirits place them firmly in their respective body.

Clearly if your brother's spirit can be heard on a recording at will, he is the one with the superpower. Now that is interesting. (And can be easily tested).

No it is a friends voice I heard. They called his name a few times. Once in high-pitch, and again very clear. Then what sounds like his voice broke through. I drove to Liverpool last week to confirm. He recognised his name being called the instant he heard it (I did not prompt) and as for his voice, we went for 95% yes, taking into consideration that many scousers who talk like that sound the same.

 

[Biscuit]

Being within, they get through to the electric wires through my fingers.

Are you physically touching the speaker wires during playback? This can interrupt the fidelity of the playback and would explain why you don't hear it when you record and why you are hearing several different words when you play the same recording different times.

How about for a bit of fun you adopt the POV of many of us here that what you are experiencing is common pareidolia and approach the recordings from this new angle?

Take an old recoding or a new recording and try and hear a nonsensical phrase such as, "soap is yummy" and see if you can "trick" yourself into hearing that.

 

[Stray Cat]

It sounds like gobbeldy gook on many recordings,

Perhaps you could add that vital bit of information to your website?

entangled voices will do. If I can't make any of it out, I abandon it.

Bearing that in mind, perhaps you could remove the part that says "Guaranteed contact with the spirits every time"

These are the recordings I'm working with now. I just need to bring on the volume more, with louder speakers rather than Audacity.

No you don't. Louder speakers with your "ears on" will cause permanent damage to your ears.
Hearing these voices may cause permanent damage to your sanity.

The cards, we already did that the other night.

No you didn't, the spirits refused to be part of that circus. Why then are single words OK for them? Does it not insult their intelligence to resort to repeating single words when they have such an important message to relay?

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

No it is a friends voice I heard. They called his name a few times. Once in high-pitch, and again very clear. Then what sounds like his voice broke through. I drove to Liverpool last week to confirm. He recognised his name being called the instant he heard it (I did not prompt) and as for his voice, we went for 95% yes, taking into consideration that many scousers who talk like that sound the same.

You could be right. I got the info from Alderbank’s post where he describes his visit.

Alderbank:

flaccon hears sentences and recognises the speech cadences of her deceased father, her brother who is still living and others

Everything points to pareidolia and your extremely imaginative interpretations. Perhaps you should work on the problem a bit longer, and not dismiss very strong explanations so quickly.

A lot of people are going out of their way, some quite literally, to help you understand what is happening to you. Please make an effort to understand what they are telling you before you dismiss their help.

If I were you, and I know I'm not, I would read about how sound works and how signal behaves. Not from EVP raconteurs, but from experts in acoustics and electronics.
This would be better than trying to figure things out from an uninformed perspective.

If you were to ask where to find good information on any of the topics involved in this thread, I can assure you that you would get the best possible answers from members of this forum.

 

[xterra]

[snip]

How about for a bit of fun you adopt the POV of many of us here that what you are experiencing is common pareidolia and approach the recordings from this new angle?

Take an old recoding or a new recording and try and hear a nonsensical phrase such as, "soap is yummy" and see if you can "trick" yourself into hearing that.

Ain't gonna work, Biscuit.

First, flaccon will not be able to "hear" a nonsense phrase when she knows that the spirits did not, or would not, really say that.

Second, adopting a different point of view when one has been fully committed to this one (that is, spirits exist and speak to her), is even more difficult than what you propose about hearing.


Notice how I carefully avoided the use of apostrophes, except for the first word in my response?

 

[Stray Cat]

Ain't gonna work, Biscuit.

First, flaccon will not be able to "hear" a nonsense phrase when she knows that the spirits did not, or would not, really say that.

Second, adopting a different point of view when one has been fully committed to this one (that is, spirits exist and speak to her), is even more difficult than what you propose about hearing.

And besides that, what's to say that the spirits don't think soap is yummy?

Apparently cleanliness is next to godliness.

 

[Cassidy]

Hi Ward, In fact I haven't ever written in this much detail about my experiences before. I've spent decades now occasionally thinking about it... for many years I would have a physical reaction when I tried to talk about it (heart rate increase, shallow breathing, anxiety response...), and just not knowing how to interpret what had happened. Maybe two decades before I came to firmly believe it was a psychotic break. I honestly don't know if it would have helped for someone to write to me as I've written to flaccon... but at some point in that process it would have, i think. Feeling isolated was a part of the problem, so yes at least that sharing would have helped.

I don't want to hijack this thread though, so I won't say any more about it, except to say that I have recently begun to get a handle on how I would write about it, and I do want to write my autobiography in the near future... you can check out my website if you want to see more of my current state of mind and artistic activities.

Briefly to indicate how I managed to "turn the corner": I was raised in a family with no religion (in Canada and in Vermont), and so I was very lucky that I was a teenager before religion came into my awareness. Being basically a naive atheist hippy, my paranoia went from starting with police interference to thinking I was being contacted by aliens, through to the awful realisation that hindu gods might be some kind of reality... until they suddenly revealed that it was the devil... at which point I just knew it wasn't real! It felt like they were trying to get rid of me at that point.

So, early indoctrination makes a mind trap. If I'd have been a catholic, I'd have been screwed. Even being an atheist, I had an "open mind" and someone dumped that crap into it... and I went back to figuring it was police and Hindu self-defence (they don't like people pretending to be sadhu)... but the imprint was so deep that my doubts would arise for years later. (But within a few weeks of returning to Britain, I convinced myself that I was not living in hell because I saw a young couple walking down the street, and they were obviously in love... at that moment I knew I had a chance, because I knew that love could not exist in hell! Thus worked my rationalisations... over time I talked myself into reality... submerging myself in volunteering at the head office of Friends of the Earth for a couple of years helped me a lot!)

I could only truly put it behind me when eventually I had a really good LSD experience. (I had jumped off a moving train in India at one point, and it occurred to me that everything else after that was an after death experience, so for years I was scared that if I took acid all my effort of talking myself out of the reality of that fear would be stripped away to reveal that the mundane world was just a mental construct, and I would be back in the afterlife... eventually I was able to prove to myself that this world is real, I'm not dead, and life is a beautiful thing. The trip was the final step after many years of work, a large part of it being studying science courses with the Open University and mixing with many many people, so the weight of experience overhelmed the possibility that it was all an illusion I had built up to flee from the "spirits" I was surrounded by in India. I've recently been back for the first time and found myself of sound mind in Goa... cured! )

I'm sorry, I wanted to briefly answer your question, but it's hard to express all this succinctly, and I really should bow out of this thread now, except if flaccon wants to ask anything. You can contact me through my website, or pm me if you want.

Don't bow out the thread, others peoples experiences are so interesting. I never took to drink or drugs in life. Deeply mind-altering stuff. (I put your site to faves, will spend a couple of hours on it tomorrow) Thank u for sharing yourself here.

I get dry mouth when I speak of certain experiences. My insides quiver, and I become tongue-tied, etc. Horrid sensations. If anyone (a friend or a group) ever mentioned spooks, them sensations would flare and I'd have to make excuses and dash. I found peace and solace when I moved to here 12 years ago.

 

[Alderbank]

When I visited flaccon on Tuesday she copied some files onto my pen-drive. We confirmed that they had copied accurately and when I played them back at home they sounded the same, so no problems with 'file transfer' this time.

flaccon has allowed me to share some of them so that you can hear them for yourself. She recommends playing them loud through good speakers with a wide frequency range. Warning - there are some loud transients. Beware of acoustic shock.

I have uploaded the files to https://www.box.com/alderbank

flaccon had helpfully named each file with all the words and sentences she recognised. I have renamed them.

These are the 'easy' tracks I asked for. flaccon said she plans to hire a hall and play tracks to the public. I believe these are the tracks she will play.

Please listen to the tracks and feed back what you hear. This will be useful to flaccon. She told me that up to now only close friends and family have confirmed they can hear the words and sentences. I could not but she hopes that others can.

There is only one word I can decipher - the word 'Wimbledon'. Everything else to me is just whistles and squeaks.

Can you hear what I can't?

 

[Cassidy]

Ain't gonna work, Biscuit.

First, flaccon will not be able to "hear" a nonsense phrase when she knows that the spirits did not, or would not, really say that.

Second, adopting a different point of view when one has been fully committed to this one (that is, spirits exist and speak to her), is even more difficult than what you propose about hearing.


Notice how I carefully avoided the use of apostrophes, except for the first word in my response?

No that's a very good point to make. When I want to hear words that I want to hear, it doesn't happen. They control what I hear.

 

[trustbutverify]

Sentences are difficult to follow, gobbeldy gook. Alderbank asked for some kind of beginner's recording. I thought it best to have them try single words.

I can't rule out many events, and put it down to imagination. Too many folk involved. I'm wondering where imagination like this would stem from.

The only valid type of test to address this type of "phenomena" would be based on the transmission of objective, verifiable information. All of the rest- garbled sounds, ambiguous pictures, glowing pine doors, stray electrical "frequencies"- are experimentally worthless. They are subjective experiences indicating nothing about paranormal activities.

The correct (and only) valid method of verifying communication is to confirm an exchange of information which could not have been exchanged by normal means. A possible problem with showing 'the spirits" some information (playing cards, written words, pictures, spoken words, etc) is that these spirits are using flaccon's senses for observation, and have no other way to gather information from the living world. Therefore, there would be no practical method of informing the spirits without informing flaccon.

The ideal solution would be the idea I proposed earlier; have a recently departed spirit give flaccon the correct spelling of his/her full name. (obviously, this would need to be the name they had while living, not some spirit name they had acquired upon passing) It's ideal because this is information the "spirit" would have built in, and which flaccon, in all probability, would have no other channel to access. And the information would be unique enough to make successful guessing an astronomically unlikely event.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

It sounds like gobbeldy gook on many recordings, entangled voices will do. If I can't make any of it out, I abandon it. These are the recordings I'm working with now. I just need to bring on the volume more, with louder speakers rather than Audacity.

What you mean is you need more noise to hear more voices, since the noise is the voices. It's pareidolia. Prove me wrong.

The cards, we already did that the other night.

No you didn't. You appear to have forgotten what actually happened.

We are still waiting for you to try to see if you can hear the spirits identify cards. It's a test which could demonstrate that what you are experiencing is more than just pareidolia, so it really matters.

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

When I visited flaccon on Tuesday she copied some files onto my pen-drive. We confirmed that they had copied accurately and when I played them back at home they sounded the same, so no problems with 'file transfer' this time.

flaccon has allowed me to share some of them so that you can hear them for yourself. She recommends playing them loud through good speakers with a wide frequency range. Warning - there are some loud transients. Beware of acoustic shock.

I have uploaded the files to https://www.box.com/alderbank

flaccon had helpfully named each file with all the words and sentences she recognised. I have renamed them.

These are the 'easy' tracks I asked for. flaccon said she plans to hire a hall and play tracks to the public. I believe these are the tracks she will play.

Please listen to the tracks and feed back what you hear. This will be useful to flaccon. She told me that up to now only close friends and family have confirmed they can hear the words and sentences. I could not but she hopes that others can.

There is only one word I can decipher - the word 'Wimbledon'. Everything else to me is just whistles and squeaks.

Can you hear what I can't?

Whistles and squeaks indeed. There's a watery feel to the sounds. And there is a vocal quality, like a speech-like rhythm. Sounds like what happens when a signal gets garbled, as heard on many webcam videos on you tube. No spirits. though.