General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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The enormity of the Holocaust lie is never examined by the believers. They know that questioning the Holocaust in any shape or form has serious negative consequences. 3 million this, 6 million here, 11 million there.

There is no attempt to connect any dots. So here are couple of realities that must be connected and supported by real people/work. Remembering the Germans were fighting and supporting and managing troops for a war on 3 or 4 fronts, land, sea, and air.

The believers are told that the extermination of 6 million Jewish people and 5 or 6 million other noncombatants during WWII went pretty much unnoticed.

In the 1950s the population of Philadelphia was about 3 million people.

What the believers are told and believe without question is that a population the size of Philadelphia was collected from all over Europe, NOT Germany itself, and gassed in Polish concentration camps over a period of 3 years.


SQUAD – Nine to 10 soldiers. Typically commanded by a sergeant or staff sergeant, a squad or section is the smallest element in Army structure, and its size is dependent on its function.
PLATOON – 16 to 44 soldiers. A platoon is led by a lieutenant with an NCO as second in command, and consists of two to four squads or sections.

COMPANY – 62 to 190 soldiers.

BATTALION – 300 to 1,000 soldiers.

BRIGADE – 3,000 to 5,000 soldiers.

DIVISION – 10,000 to 15,000 soldiers.

CORPS – 20,000 to 45,000 soldiers. Two to five divisions constitute a corps, which is typically commanded by a lieutenant general.
ARMY – 50,000+ soldiers. Typically commanded by a lieutenant general or higher, an army combines two or more corps.

Your numbers for brigades and higher are low, likely due to overlooking the support troops.

What's your point here? That the Nazis wasted a lot of combat potential in favour of genocide? If that is your point, then bravo! You've reached a level of understanding not often seen by deniers.


Note that a squad has one supervisor over 9 or 10 trained men. So if there were a million trained men assigned to squads 100000 supervisors would be required.

The SS had a fairly extensive system of NCO and officer training as did the Heer, training small unit leaders.




Note that a squad has one supervisor over 9 or 10 trained men. So if there were a million trained men assigned to squads 100000 supervisors would be required.

So what supervisory numbers would be required for confined civilians?

Take a look at your local correctional facility for a rough guide.

So what supervisory numbers are required for confined hostile, certainly in alleged death camps the prisoners would be very angry, civilians?

Most prisons use a fairly small number of guards. I'm reasonably certain most convicts are very angry civilians with the added benefit that they don't have to worry about family.

German records showed 50,000 (approx) men in the totenkopferbande. Likely with similar ratios of NCOs to men. That doesn't include the Waffen SS, Heer, or police forces, nor does it include the auxiliaries from the eastern territories. Why is this now a surprise to you?
 
Your numbers for brigades and higher are low, likely due to overlooking the support troops.

What's your point here? That the Nazis wasted a lot of combat potential in favour of genocide? If that is your point, then bravo! You've reached a level of understanding not often seen by deniers.




The SS had a fairly extensive system of NCO and officer training as did the Heer, training small unit leaders.





Take a look at your local correctional facility for a rough guide.


Most prisons use a fairly small number of guards. I'm reasonably certain most convicts are very angry civilians with the added benefit that they don't have to worry about family.

German records showed 50,000 (approx) men in the totenkopferbande. Likely with similar ratios of NCOs to men. That doesn't include the Waffen SS, Heer, or police forces, nor does it include the auxiliaries from the eastern territories. Why is this now a surprise to you?

On the state level, the guard-to-prisoner ratio is also somber: There is one guard for every 6.7 prisoners, according to the American Correctional Association. No wonder we often hear of prisoners overpowering guards and escaping.

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/mar/7/more-prisoners-more-guards/#ixzz2V34kfQcW
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter


That would mean there were never more than 350,000 detainees in the camps at any one time.
 
...
SQUAD – Nine to 10 soldiers. Typically commanded by a sergeant or staff sergeant, a squad or section is the smallest element in Army structure, and its size is dependent on its function....
Note that a squad has one supervisor over 9 or 10 trained men. So if there were a million trained men assigned to squads 100000 supervisors would be required.
...
Note that a squad has one supervisor over 9 or 10 trained men. So if there were a million trained men assigned to squads 100000 supervisors would be required.

So what supervisory numbers would be required for confined civilians?

So what supervisory numbers are required for confined hostile, certainly in alleged death camps the prisoners would be very angry, civilians?

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. The squad leader (supervisor) is a member of his squad. The platoon leader is a member of his platoon. The company commander is a member of his company. Etc, etc. They don't pull people from outside the unit to run the unit.

So if there were a million trained men assigned to squads then the squad leaders would be part of that million.

As for the number of men needed to guard prisoners, the guards had these things called guns that helped small numbers of guards to control much larger numbers of prisoners.

From your post it seems that you think 3 million people were rounded up and put in a camp and then the guards started killing them. It didn't work like that. Many of the gassing victims were killed shortly after arrival, never having been in the barracks part of the prison. They didn't have time to sit around getting very angry. They just got dead.
 
What's your point here? That the Nazis wasted a lot of combat potential in favour of genocide? If that is your point, then bravo! You've reached a level of understanding not often seen by deniers.

Actually the Nazis were fairly efficient in how they assigned such manpower, since by the time they needed more concentration camp guards they had quite a few wounded Waffen-SS veterans to reassign, and also used collaborator manpower extensively at the Reinhard camps.

Mobile units like the police battalions and Einsatzgruppen were fairly time-efficient, since they were flexibly tasked to general occupation service or antipartisan warfare and in the case of police battalions, also committed at the front, while also carrying out genocidal assignments.

Police Battalion 310 for example spent the first years of the war on pure occupation duties in Poland, then was moved to Galicia where it helped shoot Soviet commissars, then was sent to the Leningrad front for months on end, was pulled out, and sent to Volhynia, whereupon it massacred multiple Belorussian villages while also providing the lion's share of the shooters for the mass murder of nearly 50,000 Jews, including the whole of the rather large Pinsk ghetto, in autumn 1942. When the Axis front collapsed on the Don after the Stalingrad encirclement, it was sent along with other units from its regiment to the Don bend, where it was destroyed in frontline combat. Thus, the 500 or so men of Police Battalion 310 contributed just under 1% of the genocide of the Jews, and did so in the space of a few months.

Providing security troops for the occupied territories and for guarding prisoner of war camps drained a significant amount of Nazi manpower, vastly more than was used in carrying out the Holocaust, but this manpower was typically much older and less suited for frontline infantry combat. Nonetheless, in a pinch, police units and Army security battalions were committed to plug gaps, despite high losses and poor combat performance compared to regular infantry divisions.

There were certainly a lot of guards overseeing POWs, foreign labourers and KZ prisoners in Germany, but the size of the KZ system only became really significant in the final year of the war, by which time occupied territories had been lost, and the retreating security units were invariably reassigned if they had not been destroyed in combat. The age profile of KZ guards was fairly middle-aged or elderly, sprinkled with numerous wounded Waffen-SS veterans who were no longer of use at the front, so even though there were 37,000 concentration camp guards by January 1945, you could not have formed a useful division out of them - not least because they lacked the heavy weapons needed to fight any of the Allies by this stage in the war. And nearly 4,000 of the camp guards were women.

The ultimate problem faced by the Nazis was simply imperial overstretch; not having enough manpower to generate forces to serve on all the many fronts across the length and breadth of Europe. That is of course why they lost the war, and that has essentially nothing to do with the Holocaust.
 
A recent article by Jonas E Alexis "Denying Holocaust Forgeries, Hoaxes and Fabrications" -
www.veteranstoday.com/2013/05/30/denying-holocaust-forgeries-hoaxes-and-fabrications/

OK so of the dozens if not hundreds of books with 1st hand accounts of the Holocaust a couple were frauds.

Note that:
  • The Painted Bird was a work of fiction.
  • There are numerous 1st hand accounts that were not made into books
  • Oral histories are but one of the many types of evidence which document the Holocaust.
 
A recent article by Jonas E Alexis "Denying Holocaust Forgeries, Hoaxes and Fabrications" -
www.veteranstoday.com/2013/05/30/denying-holocaust-forgeries-hoaxes-and-fabrications/

Pierre Vidal Naquet, a French-Jewish historian whose book Assassins of Memory: Essays on the Denial of Holocaust we shall examine in the future, declared that “You just have to read parts of Night to know that certain of his descriptions are not exact and that he is essentially a Shoah merchant. . . who has done harm, enormous harm, to historical truth.”[22]

The late Christopher Hitchens, who found out late in life that he was Jewish, said, “Is there any more contemptible poseur and windbag than Elie Wiesel? I suppose there may be. But not, surely, a poseur and windbag who receives (and takes as his due) such grotesque deference on moral questions.”[23] Wiesel used to work for the newspaper Zion in Kampf, a propaganda machine for a terrorist group named the Irgun.[24]

Wiesel, like Simon Wiesenthal, turned out to be a pathological liar who cooked up his story as he went along.[25] Wiesel, like Wiesenthal and in many cases Deborah Lipstadt and Daniel Jonah Goldhagen, has the tendency to force his subjective fantasy into historical and objective reality as opposed to letting historical reality undergird his weltanschauung.

Bottom line none of the liars are taken to task. The lies are huge and bold yet are never exposed until their full effect is imprinted on Western Society.
 
Wiesel, like Simon Wiesenthal, turned out to be a pathological liar who cooked up his story as he went along.[25] Wiesel, like Wiesenthal and in many cases Deborah Lipstadt and Daniel Jonah Goldhagen, has the tendency to force his subjective fantasy into historical and objective reality as opposed to letting historical reality undergird his weltanschauung.
Bottom line none of the liars are taken to task. The lies are huge and bold yet are never exposed until their full effect is imprinted on Western Society.

Get back to us with evidence any of them were dishonest, the author of the VT piece failed to do so.
 
Get back to us with evidence any of them [Wiesel or Wiesenthal] were dishonest, the author of the VT piece failed to do so.

Robert Faurisson has written on Elie Wiesel:
HTML:
http://codoh.com/library/document/858
As has Carlo Mattogno:
HTML:
http://revblog.codoh.com/2010/02/elie-wiesel-the-most-authoritative-living-witness-of-the-shoah/
And a question for you: where is the evidence of their honesty?
 
Robert Faurisson has written on Elie Wiesel:
HTML:
http://codoh.com/library/document/858
As has Carlo Mattogno:
HTML:
http://revblog.codoh.com/2010/02/elie-wiesel-the-most-authoritative-living-witness-of-the-shoah/
And a question for you: where is the evidence of their honesty?

Referencing Holocaust deniers who are proven liars is not the best way to make a point. Of course that's just my opinion.
 
Robert Faurisson has written on Elie Wiesel:
HTML:
http://codoh.com/library/document/858
As has Carlo Mattogno:
HTML:
http://revblog.codoh.com/2010/02/elie-wiesel-the-most-authoritative-living-witness-of-the-shoah/
And a question for you: where is the evidence of their honesty?

The 6 million lost fairytale was first attempted 1890 in Russia. Fail.

Then again in 1921 when New York Times reported 6 million jews holocausted in Russia. Fail.

Again during and after WWII the 6 million number was used. The insane testimonies of gas chambers plus horrific pictures that had more to do with the Allies destroying supply lines to the camps than mistreatment by Germany.

The pictures didn't fool Charles, Winnie, and Ike as they never mentioned gas chamber in their writings after the war. They weren't going down in history with the baggage of lying about gas chambers that's for sure.

20 years after the war's end no one was disputing the 6 million and the gas chamber lies. The Elies and the Simons of the day peeked from neath their respective rocks agreed "Fellas I think we have a Shoah to do."
 
Referencing Holocaust deniers who are proven liars is not the best way to make a point. Of course that's just my opinion.

It is indeed just an opinion, and one hardly worth expressing, unless you provide some evidence for the allegation that Robert Faurisson or Carlo Mattogno are "proven liars". Neither do you engage with any particular statements they make.
 
It is indeed just an opinion, and one hardly worth expressing, unless you provide some evidence for the allegation that Robert Faurisson or Carlo Mattogno are "proven liars". Neither do you engage with any particular statements they make.

Well this seems less than honest.

Further controversy was sparked when one of Faurisson's revisionist works was published with an introduction by Noam Chomsky. It turned out that the Chomsky piece was not written to be used as an introduction, although Chomsky had authorized its use to defend Faurisson in a different context. Chomsky's piece was a general defense of freedom of speech, including Faurisson's. Chomsky stated that he had "no evidence to support [the] conclusion" that Faurisson was antisemitic, while he considered Faurisson as a "relatively apolitical liberal of some sort".[8] Chomsky was accused of supporting Faurisson's views, rather than merely defending his right to speech, which Chomsky denied. Noting that he had described the Holocaust as "the most fantastic outburst of collective insanity in human history", Chomsky argued that his views were "diametrically opposed" to those of Faurisson on the subject.[2][9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Faurisson
 
Holohoaxery

In the category of Holohoax, we have some more news:

Israeli Director Explodes Nazi Jewish Soap Myth
An Israeli film maker who is admittedly “obsessed” with the Holocaust is finally putting to rest the myth that the urban myth that [sic] the Nazis used the remains of Jewish bodies to create bars of soap.

“Soaps,” a new film by director Eyal Ballas, 43, finds that the soap myth originated in World War I, when Germans were rumored to be turning bodies into the cleaning product. During World War II, SS guards would harass concentration camp members by threatening to kill them and turn them into soap.

Here is what my third favorite Holocaust historian has to say:

Holocaust historian Deborah Lipstadt told The Jewish Week that “there is no proof that the Nazis made Jews into soap in a mass fashion … There were attempts, but it was never practical.”
Nice way trying to save face: "there were attempts, but it never was practical". Those damn Nazi attempts.
 
Skepticism is great until when it comes to Holohoaxery. Survivors can tell the wildest tales without being called a liar. Ofcourse Mengele can not be absent, every single survivor met him:

In 1945, Avital weighed 70 pounds after a two-year period of starvation and hard labor in six concentration camps. He also was an orphan. Avital's mother and father, along with half of his 10 siblings, were killed during the Holocaust. His parents were sent to the gas chambers at Auschwitz, the first camp the family went to. "They separated men and women when we got there (to Auschwitz), and that was the last time I saw my mother," he said.

Josef Mengele, a Nazi doctor at Auschwitz, was one of the first people Avital saw at the concentration camp. Mengele decided who would work and who would die and became notorious for his medical experiments on prisoners and his ruthless selection process, according to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. "My father was immediately sent to the left - the gas chamber, but we didn't know what it meant to go to the left or the right," Avital said. "My brother was sent to the right to work." Avital stood in front of Mengele. "He hesitated and finally sent me to follow my brother," Avital said.
But that is besides the point. To the point:

"The German high command gave orders to the SS to annihilate the entire population because the Americans were coming closer," Avital said. "Barrack by barrack we were taken into the woods (surrounding the camp) and ... 60,000 of 80,000 prisoners were executed." The Holocaust museum reports that exact numbers of the dead aren't available, but at least 56,000 men in the camp system were killed, about 11,000 of them Jewish. Those in Avital's barracks were about to be executed when two Army tanks broke through the gates of Buchenwald, Avital said.
Hmmmm... This guy claims in a few days, 60,000 to 80,000 were "executed" at Buchenwald, while the Holocaust Museum says around 56,000 were "killed" total at Buchenwald. According to an information booklet from the Buchenwald Memorial Site, records kept by the camp secretary show the number of deaths each year in Buchenwald, as follows:

1937 – 48
1938 – 771
1939 – 1235
1940 – 1772
1941 – 1522
1942 – 2898
1943 – 3516
1944 – 8644
January to March 1945 – 13,056
March to April 11, 1945 – 913
Total 34,375

More nonsense here or some better perspective here.
 
It is indeed just an opinion, and one hardly worth expressing, unless you provide some evidence for the allegation that Robert Faurisson or Carlo Mattogno are "proven liars". Neither do you engage with any particular statements they make.

It's not my opinion that they are proven liars. It's my opinion that referencing them is not a good way to make a point. Of course that has never stopped HDs in the past.

You might want to read this thread and part one as well. Plenty of evidence throughout.
 
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