General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Some papers on how she has not been digging?

This paper details the subsequent development and application of a non-invasive archaeological methodology aimed at rectifying this situation and presents a case for the establishment of Holocaust archaeology as a sub-discipline of conflict studies.
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/maney/jca/2012/00000007/00000002/art00002
Fantastic.
Methinks that was the whole point of the exercise: use of non-invasive methods.
http://maneypublishing.com/index.php/journals/jca/:
Dr Sturdy Colls used non-invasive methods including radar in her excavations so as not to disturb or desecrate the surrounding area, in line with Jewish Halacha Law.

Is it that far fetched? Do a quick google search, for the love of Dog.

DO YOU OR YOUR LOVED ONES WANT TO BE BURIED IN ISRAEL?

Achuzat Kever, established in 2002, helps Jewish families, worldwide, bring their loved ones to their final resting place in Israel. We also arrange exhumations anywhere in the world for the purpose of transferring the mortal remains to Israel.
http://www.israelburials.com/
Thanks for bringing some actual evidence to the table.

But I'm sure that mr. Kever only exhumes bodies on the express instructions of the next of kin of the deceased, and makes sure he doesn't accidentally dig up parts of potentially 799,999 other bodies, whose next of kin didn't hire him. :rolleyes: Oh, and see above quote.
 
Methinks that was the whole point of the exercise: use of non-invasive methods.
I don't know whether you bothered to read the article I linked to. As it happens, through my university I luckily have access. She does not mention ANY findings. There is a lot of mumbo jumbo about everything BUT findings. The most detailed description of her work is:

Therefore, during the first season of fieldwork, over one hundred sites were recorded on the SMR, whilst a potential burial site and previously unidentified surviving structures at one of the labour camps were identified. The non-invasive methods, although not required for religious purposes at this site, served a different purpose. Having been deemed less intrusive than excavation, they removed the need to both physically and metaphorically dig up painful memories of the past and allowed the scientific basis of the research to be clearly demonstrated to the local community.


Thanks for bringing some actual evidence to the table.
You're welcome. Still waiting for photos from the early 1960s.

But I'm sure that mr. Kever only exhumes bodies on the express instructions of the next of kin of the deceased, and makes sure he doesn't accidentally dig up parts of potentially 799,999 other bodies, whose next of kin didn't hire him. :rolleyes: Oh, and see above quote.
How shall we estimate those odds in light of your previous link you so kindly provided?

Despite this, in a later statement they said they had discovered no mass graves. The existence of mass graves was known about from witness testimony, but the failure to provide persuasive physical evidence (...)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16657363
Kind of an internal contradiction with "photographs of bodies littering the landscape as late as the early 1960s" at the top surface.
 
Good thing she convinced the local community of the scientific basis. Now the rest of the world.
 
Is it that far fetched? Do a quick google search, for the love of Dog.

DO YOU OR YOUR LOVED ONES WANT TO BE BURIED IN ISRAEL?

Achuzat Kever, established in 2002, helps Jewish families, worldwide, bring their loved ones to their final resting place in Israel. We also arrange exhumations anywhere in the world for the purpose of transferring the mortal remains to Israel.
http://www.israelburials.com/
So let's get this right. The remains of innumerable Jewish loved ones have been removed from the areas of these extermination camps by funeral undertakers, and reburied in Israel? Where in Israel, then, are these graves located? No doubt the Jewish families performing this service didn't dump the remains of their loved ones into common pits, but provided individual tombs or headstones. There must therefore be millions of these. Where in Israel are they?

Or are you suggesting that there never were huge numbers of Jews murdered and their bodies disposed of in these camps, so that the Jews who disappeared from Poland and German-occupied Soviet territory in fact died naturally in their homes, and their bodies were transported to Israel for inhumation? Small problem: in those years Israel did not yet exist as a state.
 
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So let's get this right. The remains of innumerable Jewish loved ones have been removed from the areas of these extermination camps by funeral undertakers, and reburied in Israel?
That's what I said. It's a big conspiracy. Don't tell.

Where in Israel, then, are these graves located? No doubt the Jewish families performing this service didn't dump the remains of their loved ones into common pits, but provided individual tombs or headstones. There must therefore be millions of these. Where in Israel are they?
799.999, not millions.

Or are you suggesting that there never were huge numbers of Jews murdered and their bodies disposed of in these camps
I'd be more careful unless if I want to give the moderation a good excuse to move it to the general Holocaust denial thread after all. But we have gotten horribly off the topic of David Cole. Let's just keep at it that AFAIK he never investigated Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka, okay? And that there were good reasons for it too?
 
799.999, not millions.
So where are they, whatever the number?
I'd be more careful unless if I want to give the moderation a good excuse to move it to the general Holocaust denial thread after all. But we have gotten horribly off the topic of David Cole. Let's just keep at it that AFAIK he never investigated Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka, okay? And that there were good reasons for it too?
Be as careful as you like while answering my question. "Let's just keep it ... Okay?" No, not okay, but if you refuse to enlighten me as to this and the "good reasons" there's very little I can do about it, although there's plenty I can think about it.
 
Even if they were identical, there's no guarantee that they were equally healthy.
Their mental health would indeed have been very poor indeed. I'd have argued "we're identical twins, why don't you send us both to the left and that woman to the right?".
 
On the subject of David Cole, my point is that exterminations by gas chamber at Auschwitz are not an isignificant part of the Holocaust..in fact they are probably the most notorious part of it.

If someone is up for denying the existence of homicidal gas chambers at Auschwitz then it's unthinkable that they would stop there and not deny exterminations at the AR camps, Einsatzgruppen etc.
 
So where are they, whatever the number?
Perhaps you did not notice the obvious sarcasm, but I never claimed that all those who were killed in Belzec, Sobibor or Treblinka or where-ever were secretly buried in Israel. Again: the objection was raised against digging at Treblinka that graves would be disturbed. I find that excuse rather poor given the fact that exhumation and burial in Israel seems somehow preferable to at the very least some.

Be as careful as you like while answering my question. "Let's just keep it ... Okay?" No, not okay,
Then let YOUR posts be moved to AAH.

but if you refuse to enlighten me as to this and the "good reasons" there's very little I can do about it, although there's plenty I can think about it.
Let's just say those graves at Treblinka have proven rather hard to find by some current archaeologist despite bodies being photographed all over the top surface in the early 1960s. I guess that ground radar is only as good as it gets. That's rather relevant as to whether Cole could have investigated anything there.
 
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On the subject of David Cole, my point is that exterminations by gas chamber at Auschwitz are not an isignificant part of the Holocaust..in fact they are probably the most notorious part of it.

If someone is up for denying the existence of homicidal gas chambers at Auschwitz then it's unthinkable that they would stop there and not deny exterminations at the AR camps, Einsatzgruppen etc.
I never claimed it was insignificant and you're correct.
 
Abandoned Jewish villages and towns

It occurs to me that, if millions of Polish and East European Jews were killed by the Nazis, these countries would have been littered with abandoned Jewish towns, quarters and villages at the end of the war. It would have been like Oradour-sur-Glane in France, which has been preserved to this day as a memorial, but on a thousand-fold greater scale. Yet one never sees photographs of these abandoned townships in holocaust documentaries. Perhaps they are not dramatic enough.

Is there any research on this?
 
It occurs to me that, if millions of Polish and East European Jews were killed by the Nazis, these countries would have been littered with abandoned Jewish towns, quarters and villages at the end of the war. It would have been like Oradour-sur-Glane in France, which has been preserved to this day as a memorial, but on a thousand-fold greater scale. Yet one never sees photographs of these abandoned townships in holocaust documentaries. Perhaps they are not dramatic enough.

Is there any research on this?

The term you're looking for is shtetl. Most of these were between 1/3 to 2/3 Jewish, and many were destroyed in the war wholesale then rebuilt or allowed to decline into backwater villages. There were very few exclusively Jewish towns or villages and therefore no comparison can exist with Oradour.

It's also important to remember that there were massive population transfers in 1945; Poles left Galicia and Volhynia while Ukrainians from Lublin were sent east, resulting in great needs for housing stock. Most Jewish homes if they had not been destroyed already in the ghetto liquidation or by subsequent military action were rapidly taken over by non-Jews, who then tended to forget there were ever Jews there, for various reasons - often because they hadn't lived there before the war. Galicia and Volhynia were subjected to a double erasure since almost all Poles were forced out during and after the war. This isn't a uniquely Jewish issue.

Proper village level is a different matter; there are hundreds of burned villages in Belarus and Russia that were never rebuilt, whose physical remnants are now frequently just a single memorial marker or maybe the foundations of a house. But those villages weren't inhabited by Jews.

There is plenty to read on the aftermath and long term impact of the 'death of the shtetl'. Omer Bartov's book Erased documents some of the dynamics for Eastern Galician examples, and most of the regional studies do the same thing for other areas. Memorial books exist in Polish for e.g. Rzeszow province showing a massive variation in how the physical sites of mass murder have been commemorated. Since in most cases there were relatively few survivors to return after the war, opportunities to create memorials quickly were few. Some communities however could rebury their dead from the Nazi mass grave to a Jewish cemetery. In recent decades there has been a certain rediscovery of the Jewish heritage on a local level in Eastern Europe, but this is stronger in the west than the east; there are no signs other than decaying Jewish cemeteries that there were Jews in e.g. Bialowieza.

One of the purposes of Yahad In Unum is to record the patterns of memorials, mass grave sites and local memories. Their researchers talk of visiting former shtetls where there is no effort to care for anything partially because half the town connived in the mass murder of the other half of the town, while in other localities the entire town is still in a state of collective trauma because of the day when in September 1942 half the town was exterminated.

Belarus has historically been somewhat better than western Ukraine with these issues; there are reference works on memorials in Belarus because there are so many, and a fair number predating the fall of communism.

Same in Russia; local residents in Roslavl, Smolensk oblast, quietly campaigned in the 1960s for a memorial while also gathering stories about the victims, in an entirely independent and very, very silent project (since it was not under state control). I've seen the writings, notes and interview transcripts of the chief campaigner (a teacher). They are a remarkable example of civic activism in a hostile dictatorial environment; and a very moving set of documents because the stories are so intensely local.

I'd also add that there has been some really interesting ethnography by anthropologists, eg Rosa Lehman, Symbiosis and Ambivalence, on memories of the Jews of Jaslika in western Galicia, and Alina Cala, The Image of the Jew in Polish Folk Culture.
 
It occurs to me that, if millions of Polish and East European Jews were killed by the Nazis, these countries would have been littered with abandoned Jewish towns, quarters and villages at the end of the war. It would have been like Oradour-sur-Glane in France, which has been preserved to this day as a memorial, but on a thousand-fold greater scale. Yet one never sees photographs of these abandoned townships in holocaust documentaries. Perhaps they are not dramatic enough.

Is there any research on this?



Jews who survived the camps often found their former homes occupied by non Jews after the war. This was touched on by Laurence Rees in his Auschwitz book, with examples like Linda Breder and Walter Fried, but there is no detailed statistics on this subject according to the author.
 
So let's get this right. The remains of innumerable Jewish loved ones have been removed from the areas of these extermination camps by funeral undertakers, and reburied in Israel? Where in Israel, then, are these graves located? No doubt the Jewish families performing this service didn't dump the remains of their loved ones into common pits, but provided individual tombs or headstones. There must therefore be millions of these. Where in Israel are they?

Or are you suggesting that there never were huge numbers of Jews murdered and their bodies disposed of in these camps, so that the Jews who disappeared from Poland and German-occupied Soviet territory in fact died naturally in their homes, and their bodies were transported to Israel for inhumation? Small problem: in those years Israel did not yet exist as a state.

Or, is he saying that the remains of innumerable Jewish loved ones are all jumbled together in the ground at the death camps and families are forbidden to exhume them? Refusing Jews the ability to bring the remains of their family members to be buried near other family members seems like a cruel joke to play on people who have already suffered as much as these people have.
 
More selection nonsense:
The woman, who was seated in a chair at a day care center in B’nai B’rak, told the delegation that ahead of her on the selection line was a set of twins. One was sent to the right — which turned out to be the gas chamber — and the other to the left, for work. In the majority of "survivor stories", to the left is death. The woman said she was next in line and was ordered to the right.
“But the twins were inconsolable about being separated and pleaded with her to switch so that they could stay together,” Schneider said. “So she switched places It is easy to overtun the Nazi selection process. and instead of going to the gas chamber, she went to the work camp and the twins were sent to the gas chamber. Hearing her story was a very dramatic, emotional moment for the German delegation.”
http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/new-york-news/elderly-survivors-win-new-benefits[/indent][/i]One twin is selected as able to work, the other isn't. I think a cook was selecting alright. But don't worry, despite her telling nonsense she will get part of that 1 billion the gullible Germans are willing to give to just about anyone claiming to be a victim.

So let me get this straight: you've hand waved away multiple documents and a number of eyewitnesses who gave their accounts soon after the war. But you accept that every single word of an account given by an elderly eyewitness nearly seventy years later?

And given the long arm of the Jewish conspiracy you posit, how was this witness allowed to contradict the others?
 
Simon666 said:
A file that the Simon Wiesenthal Center had prepared on Csatáry implicated him in the deportation of 300 people from Kassa in 1941. In August 2012 the Budapest Prosecutor’s Office dropped these charges, saying Csatáry was not in Kassa at the time and lacked the rank to organize the transports. In January 2013 it was reported that Slovak police had found a witness to corroborate other charges relating to deportations of 15,700 Jews from Kassa from May 1944.[15]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lá...k-Csatáry

I wonder whether that witness testified digging a ditch in frozen ground with their bare hands.
Got a better source than Wikipedia?

Still waiting.
 
Except that the sources you gave seem to suggest "gypsy" children were used as a source of eyes, which makes more sense than twins (why use twins specifically).

Are you actually asking why someone would want to use twins in medical experiments?
 
Jews who survived the camps often found their former homes occupied by non Jews after the war. This was touched on by Laurence Rees in his Auschwitz book, with examples like Linda Breder and Walter Fried, but there is no detailed statistics on this subject according to the author.

The enormity of the Holocaust lie is never examined by the believers. They know that questioning the Holocaust in any shape or form has serious negative consequences. 3 million this, 6 million here, 11 million there.

There is no attempt to connect any dots. So here are couple of realities that must be connected and supported by real people/work. Remembering the Germans were fighting and supporting and managing troops for a war on 3 or 4 fronts, land, sea, and air.

The believers are told that the extermination of 6 million Jewish people and 5 or 6 million other noncombatants during WWII went pretty much unnoticed.

In the 1950s the population of Philadelphia was about 3 million people.

What the believers are told and believe without question is that a population the size of Philadelphia was collected from all over Europe, NOT Germany itself, and gassed in Polish concentration camps over a period of 3 years.


SQUAD – Nine to 10 soldiers. Typically commanded by a sergeant or staff sergeant, a squad or section is the smallest element in Army structure, and its size is dependent on its function.
PLATOON – 16 to 44 soldiers. A platoon is led by a lieutenant with an NCO as second in command, and consists of two to four squads or sections.

COMPANY – 62 to 190 soldiers.

BATTALION – 300 to 1,000 soldiers.

BRIGADE – 3,000 to 5,000 soldiers.

DIVISION – 10,000 to 15,000 soldiers.

CORPS – 20,000 to 45,000 soldiers. Two to five divisions constitute a corps, which is typically commanded by a lieutenant general.
ARMY – 50,000+ soldiers. Typically commanded by a lieutenant general or higher, an army combines two or more corps.



Note that a squad has one supervisor over 9 or 10 trained men. So if there were a million trained men assigned to squads 100000 supervisors would be required.

No, there were about 50,000 personnel involved in guarding the camps. Mainly due to the fact that not all camps were in operation at the same time, and there were various auxiliaries such as police, and some nationalist auxiliaries.

the Nazi regieme devoted massive resources to the death and work camp system right up to the end of WW2 even in its dying days resources were getting diverted to the death camps.


Note that a squad has one supervisor over 9 or 10 trained men. So if there were a million trained men assigned to squads 100000 supervisors would be required.

So what supervisory numbers would be required for confined civilians?

So what supervisory numbers are required for confined hostile, certainly in alleged death camps the prisoners would be very angry, civilians?
 
They don't allow just about anyone to do any archaeological investigations. And with regards to oral sources, very few people survived those three camps. Documentation is also virtually non existent, contrary to e.g. Auschwitz for which blueprints and other documentation exist.

allegedly.


Plus phantom 3 million Jewish people who allegedly were gassed in the camps were never even in the camps.

Not enough guards and cooks.
 
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