Looking for Skeptics

[Alderbank]

Shall I ring round for a third party tomorrow? I have a 30 year old, very sensible daughter, (supervising Rowton Hall at present)

May I ask what people here think of the Turin Shroud?

Although I have no objection to your daughter being present you will need additional controls to show that she is not there to collude in some way. She must stay silent and stay out of the test room during the test.

No you can't ask what we think of the Turin Shroud in this thread! It has its own thread which makes this one look like a tiddler

 

[jsfisher]

You all know how wary I am of anything that requires me to interpret sounds. However since this new proposal has the blessing of the Forum, floccan and the spirits themselves I'll give it a go.

What about 7pm GMT this evening (Monday)?

It would be far, far better if flaccon can provide the third. You, Alderbank should only observe, facilitate, and monitor. Flaccon needs an ally she has pre-screened and is confident in the ally's ability.

Here's a simple explanation of how I'd conceive the test be run (with three):

First, Alderbank selects a card and allows flaccon to view it. Ideally, Alderbank does not view the card, himself. For each card in turn, flaccon asks the spirits to identify it, then she listens to the recording playback to hear the card correctly identified. If this fails, flaccon will again ask then listen. She will not go on to the next card until she has a useable recording. Flaccon may request a substitute card be selected, but the total under of ask then listen attempts should be limited. Let's say 4 tries in total for the original and any substitute cards before declaring the test a failure.

ETA: Three cards + recordings are needed.

After each recording is deemed acceptable, Alderbank will seal the card in a numbered envelope and set it one side. The recording files should be named in some generic way that includes the card number (something like CARD1.WAV, CARD2.WAV, and CARD3.WAV would be good) and placed in a directory with no other files on flaccon's computer.

The computer should be left set up so the individual recordings can be easily played for flaccon's friend during the next part. Alderbank look over the computer screen and the general area around it for any (presumably unintended) clues to the cards' identities.

Flaccon leaves and the friend is brought in.

Alderbank will then replay each of the recordings for the friend, one at a time, and allow the friend to name the corresponding card from the recording. Let's put a 20 minute time limit on listening and relistening before abandoning that card.

The first card will be used for an open test. Alderbank will open the first envelope and show the card to the friend (ideally without viewing the card himself). The open test will give the friend the opportunity to become comfortable with the environment and that things working.

For the other two tests, Alderbank will write the card name provided by the friend on the corresponding envelope.

Once all three cards have been handled, flaccon will be brought back in and Alderbank will open the envelopes and permit both flaccon and the friend to compare the cards to what the friend heard on the recordings.

 

[Cassidy]

It's a medieval fake.

And way off-topic in this thread.

ETA: Unless the spirits are revealing something about the shroud to you that you couldn't possibly know and could be independently verified.

No, never thought to ask. I don't know what to make of it, not much.

I hear scientists are now zooming deep into one of Da Vinci's art pieces, finding initials? It's likely that the code isn't that complicated. Man makes it complicated.

 

[AdMan]

No, never thought to ask. I don't know what to make of it, not much.

I hear scientists are now zooming deep into one of Da Vinci's art pieces, finding initials? It's likely that the code isn't that complicated. Man makes it complicated.

Off-topic nonsense. You'll get in trouble with the mods.

Can the spirits reveal knowledge that you don't have?

 

[Orphia Nay]

What if someone were to tell them the card number & suit privately?

Could they tell you the card number & suit later?

flaccon?

Say Alderbank and your daughter were in another room from you. Your daughter tells the spirits a card number & suit, then Alderbank writes it down. Then your daughter writes her initials next to what's written to confirm.

Then they repeat the process with a few other cards.

Then they go into the same room as you and you ask the spirits what the cards were.

All of this could be filmed/recorded/live on Skype.


Or this could be done with just say, telling the spirits a type of fruit, for example, to make things simpler, and easier for the spirits to remember.

 

[aggle-rithm]

May I ask what people here think of the Turin Shroud?

Sure, go right ahead.

 

[Stray Cat]

It would be far, far better if flaccon can provide the third. You, Alderbank should only observe, facilitate, and monitor. Flaccon needs an ally she has pre-screened and is confident in the ally's ability.

Here's a simple explanation of how I'd conceive the test be run (with three):... [sniped for brevity]

Yup, I'm all for Flaccon feeling like she has as much support and is as relaxed as she needs and if her daughter is present (as long as controls are in place to rule out collusion), this seems good to me as an initial exploratory test.

 

[Alderbank]

It would be far, far better if flaccon can provide the third. You, Alderbank should only observe, facilitate, and monitor. Flaccon needs an ally she has pre-screened and is confident in the ally's ability.

Here's a simple explanation of how I'd conceive the test be run (with three):

First, Alderbank selects a card and allows flaccon to view it. Ideally, Alderbank does not view the card, himself. For each card in turn, flaccon asks the spirits to identify it, then she listens to the recording playback to hear the card correctly identified. If this fails, flaccon will again ask then listen. She will not go on to the next card until she has a useable recording. Flaccon may request a substitute card be selected, but the total under of ask then listen attempts should be limited. Let's say 4 tries in total for the original and any substitute cards before declaring the test a failure.

ETA: Three cards + recordings are needed.

After each recording is deemed acceptable, Alderbank will seal the card in a numbered envelope and set it one side. The recording files should be named in some generic way that includes the card number (something like CARD1.WAV, CARD2.WAV, and CARD3.WAV would be good) and placed in a directory with no other files on flaccon's computer.

The computer should be left set up so the individual recordings can be easily played for flaccon's friend during the next part. Alderbank look over the computer screen and the general area around it for any (presumably unintended) clues to the cards' identities.

Flaccon leaves and the friend is brought in.

Alderbank will then replay each of the recordings for the friend, one at a time, and allow the friend to name the corresponding card from the recording. Let's put a 20 minute time limit on listening and relistening before abandoning that card.

The first card will be used for an open test. Alderbank will open the first envelope and show the card to the friend (ideally without viewing the card himself). The open test will give the friend the opportunity to become comfortable with the environment and that things working.

For the other two tests, Alderbank will write the card name provided by the friend.

Once all three cards have been handled, flaccon will be brought back in and Alderbank will open the envelopes and permit both flaccon and the friend to compare the cards to what the friend heard on the recordings.

I feel OK with this protocol, js. Great work!

flaccon, your daughter sounds ideal for the 3rd person and she can take an active part.

Is the 3rd person in the house while the recordings are being made and monitored? Does flaccon monitor them on headphones or those big Bose speakers?

I take it we all agree that success of this little test would make a powerful case for further research but does not by itself prove that spirits exist

 

[Stray Cat]

Is the 3rd person in the house while the recordings are being made and monitored?

There is no reason why not (but preferably not in the same room), as long as Flaccon does not name the chosen cards out loud (or even quietly) at any time.

Does flaccon monitor them on headphones or those big Bose speakers?

Flaccon stated earlier in the thread that listening on headphones is no good.
But there is no reason why her daughter shouldn't be able to overhear any playback that Flaccon is listening to (to confirm the spirits have given the correct answer) from another room or from outside (also it would be wise to make sure that Flaccon's daughter can not see Flaccon's part of the test (through an outside window for example)

I take it we all agree that success of this little test would make a powerful case for further research but does not by itself prove that spirits exist

Yes, now all we need is Flaccon's agreement.

Though I have to say that at the moment I think she may well agree to anything just to get someone there because she still truly believes that one demonstration will convince another witness who will then forget all about the need for any silly test.

 

[Ladewig]

Woah!
Earlier you said that the spirits spoke in unmistakeable, clear full sentences, now you say the listeners need some 'training' to decipher what is being said.

Has anyone ever arrived at the same deciphered sentence that you did without you needing to tell them in advance what to listen out for?

I think Stray Cat's post is the most important post in the past 5 pages.

Flaccon, have you ever showed your evidence to an open-minded unbiased person and found that that person concluded that you were not hearing special spirits?

 

[Ladewig]

This sounds like a new claim.

Really? I read that post and do not see a claim at all. I am still not convinced that flaccon understands our definition of protocol, claim, and blinded test. [ETA: or to put it ina less accusative manner, I am not convinced that the skeptics posting in this thread understand flaccon's definitions of evidence, objective test, and convincing proof.] The skeptics keep trying to define these words for flaccon, but I am of the opinion that none of these definitions have been explained in a way that a poetic, mystic soul like flaccon can understand.

 

[Cassidy]

Off-topic nonsense. You'll get in trouble with the mods.

Can the spirits reveal knowledge that you don't have?

Yes, things like the off-topic nonsense. The spirit has a message for Alderbank. It is very clear. They put this message on an older recording from 2012 (date stamped) I will also ask them to repeat this message to him during a live recording.

 

[marplots]

Really? I read that post and do not see a claim at all. I am still not convinced that flaccon understands our definition of protocol, claim, and blinded test. The skeptics keep trying to define these words for flaccon, but I am of the opinion that none of these definitions have been explained in a way that a poetic, mystic soul like flaccon can understand.

Agreed. And there's a bit of "locus of control" in the mix too.

We have pictures flaccon has shared that the spirits drew in blood. They are published for all to see. We never really got past that, early in the thread. Why haven't those pictures convinced us? I am starting to see why skeptics are not popular in these circles.

 

[AdMan]

Yes, things like the off-topic nonsense.

Da Vinci code-style nonsense? I gather the spirits are Dan Brown fans?

As I'm sure you probably are as well.

What a coincidence.

 

[Cassidy]

I think Stray Cat's post is the most important post in the past 5 pages.

Flaccon, have you ever showed your evidence to an open-minded unbiased person and found that that person concluded that you were not hearing special spirits?

Yes one, who said I'd pre-done the recordings for a set up. Even though she saw that I did live recordings in front of her, with a third party standing by. Being Lady Snip- - -, married to an ex-chief of Snip yard, Live recording "Snip can you hear just some voices?"

I'll claim this, that was our Father begging her.

 

[Cassidy]

Da Vinci code-style nonsense? I gather the spirits are Dan Brown fans?

As I'm sure you probably are as well.

What a coincidence.

It's no coincidence your wrong every time. No, I don't read story books.

 

[AdMan]

Yes one, who said I'd pre-done the recordings for a set up. Even though she saw that I did live recordings in front of her, with a third party standing by. Being Lady S- - -, married to an ex-chief of Scotland yard, Live recording "Sherry can you hear just some voices?"

I'll claim this, that was our Father begging her.

Can you rewrite this post so it's intelligible?

 

[AdMan]

It's no coincidence your wrong every time.

I suppose in that sentence you meant to say I'm wrong every time (again, ask the spirits about the proper use of apostrophes, and also contractions). Can you point out the other times I've been wrong?

 

[Cassidy]

Although I have no objection to your daughter being present you will need additional controls to show that she is not there to collude in some way. She must stay silent and stay out of the test room during the test.

No you can't ask what we think of the Turin Shroud in this thread! It has its own thread which makes this one look like a tiddler

My exact sentiment to the Bishop.

 

[AdMan]

My exact sentiment to the Bishop.

Huh?