GOP hate speech continues ban on atheist chaplains in military

[Ausmerican]

If that's the position you're taking, it makes little sense to liken atheism to baldness and religion to hair color, because the difference between a redhead and a blond is superficial compared to the differences you claim exist between different religions, whereas there is fundamental difference between atheism (or baldness) and religion (or hair color).

There is a fundamental difference. Religions are often actively hostile towards each other. An atheist chaplain is actually well suited because he sees no difference between a belief in Jesus and a belief in Allah, or Ganesh or theistic or atheistic Buddhism. They are all human belief systems. The active rivalry and often centuries if bloody history aren't there.

As for analogy; The premise should really be baldness and hair, with hair being theism and hair color the different flavors. The atheist chaplain merely has to own one more wig than the theist ones.
Or, for those that prefer the stamp collection analogy; You shouldn't have to be considered a full time philatelist to have a few sheets of forever stamps in your drawer.

 

[mijopaalmc]

There is a fundamental difference. Religions are often actively hostile towards each other. An atheist chaplain is actually well suited because he sees no difference between a belief in Jesus and a belief in Allah, or Ganesh or theistic or atheistic Buddhism. They are all human belief systems. The active rivalry and often centuries if bloody history aren't there.

As for analogy; The premise should really be baldness and hair, with hair being theism and hair color the different flavors. The atheist chaplain merely has to own one more wig than the theist ones.
Or, for those that prefer the stamp collection analogy; You shouldn't have to be considered a full time philatelist to have a few sheets of forever stamps in your drawer.

Yeah, because there's no difference having a belief in the supernatural and completely lacking such a belief.

 

[jj]

Yeah, because there's no difference having a belief in the supernatural and completely lacking such a belief.

In terms of being able to counsel people who are putting their life on the line while causing terrible stress for their families? Really?

Anything BUT having atheist "chaplains" is discriminating against those who aren't religious.

Of course, I have to ask, were I, say, in the Air Force Academy, and wanted some counseling from a chaplain, could I go to one and get one without being godbothered?

 

[Ausmerican]

Yeah, because there's no difference having a belief in the supernatural and completely lacking such a belief.

Irrelevant. The relevant factor isn't the belief of the person doing the counseling, it is how they treat the belief of the person in need.
I posit an atheist could do just as well as a religious person who was not a believer in the other person's religion or lack thereof, if not better in some cases.
Unless proselytizing their own beliefs should be not only irrelevant, but unknown. And if proselytizing they shouldn't be. They aren't there to convert, but to counsel.

 

[BobTheCoward]

I feel like a bad atheist after reading this thread. I would express the ideas this guy mentions and I use the phrase "worm food" all the time. The difference is I find something reassuring in it.

 

[ponderingturtle]

A Chaplains job is primarily religious in nature - it is the defining aspect of their job. The notion of an Atheist joining the Chaplaincy really is ridiculous. An Atheist that is otherwise qualified could certainly become a counselor in one of the many other disciplines employed by the services.

Yep it is about converting the damned to his faith not counseling and BS like that.

The goal is so that you be converted to Evangelical Christianity or not talk to anyone with out consequences.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Much like the homosexual "marriage" debate, much would seem to depend on the definition of the word "chaplain". When I was in, the various chaplains ("Protestant" and Catholic only...You were out of luck if you were of some other faith or sect....) indeed functioned as psychological counselors, family counselors, and varieties of other things as well.

There's no reason an atheist or secular humanist could not perform these functions, and it does seem appropriate that secular troops should have access to such things... but perhaps under some other rubric.
However..... In the military, to seek "psychological counseling" is often a prelude to ostracism, lack of promotions, or transfers.... Whereas a trip the chaplain is quite acceptable and also considered confidential....

And that is what they want, you convert to evangelical christianity given that they are massively more represented in the chaplians than they are in the military as a whole.

 

[ponderingturtle]

While they must be ordained before they become military chaplains, they do receive a fair amount of training in lay counseling as well. Indeed, very little of their formal post-commissioning training has to do with their church duties. It is primarily focused on being a Soldier, attending to general spiritual needs (as opposed to denomination specific activities), morale and welfare training, and suicide prevention, grief counseling, couples counseling, etc.

And clearly that is all things atheists don't deserve with out the stigma of approaching a therapist.

 

[ponderingturtle]

No. That the non-religious Soldiers were discriminated against does not impact their access to adequate counseling. They were punished for not attending a religious service - they were not denied counseling.

And then punished for it. But only punishing some for something isn't discrimination in the military I guess.

 

[ponderingturtle]

A protestant Chaplain can perform religious services for a Catholic Soldier, even though there are some activities that he can not perform. An Atheist Chaplain could not perform any religious services for any Soldier. The Chaplains Corps would have to be re-defined in order for Athesits to serve.

Here's what chaplains must do - all of them:

• Providing advice in matters pertaining to religion, morals and morale
  
• Overseeing a full program of religious ministries, including workshops, counseling sessions, religious education and special events
• Officiate at official ceremonies such as military functions, funerals and memorials
• Provide religious ministry to a variety of armed service personnel and civilians from the U.S., foreign nations and agencies

These are disqualifiers for Atheists.

Yes that is why you need to have your specific sect as your chaplian, a infidel would never do and shouldn't be allowed in in the first place.

Or if someone who believes the wrong religion can do these things why not an atheist? Why is say a Muslim administering these to Christians ok but not an atheist?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Chaplains attend to the religious needs of Soldiers. Only those with a religious belief can do so adequately. The reverse is not true. A person with religious beliefs can adequately attend to the spiritual (atheists have no religious beliefs, as religious in this context stipulates theism).

An Atheist counselor can adequately attend to some spiritual needs of believers, so long as spiritual and religious are not synonyms. An atheist can not attend to the religious needs of Soldiers. As non-believer. Soldiers have no religious needs, and as non-believers spiritual needs are already adequately met, there is no problem excluding atheists from the chaplaincy.

You are incorrect also about how Chaplains treat with Soldiers not of their own faith. A Jewish Chaplain routinely counsels on matters of faith with non-Jewish Soldiers for example, and that is something that an atheist could not do. At least, not with any credibility. No matter how well educated an atheist might be about religion, a belief that there is no god is a disqualified.

But why should the good christian put any weight in the views of a foolish christ killing infidel like that?

 

[ponderingturtle]

After witnessing some of the thing that self-identified atheists about their religious friends and family, I don't think it to far off the mark to question the ability of some atheists to be sensitive others' religious conviction.

After knowing about the ways Catholics treated people with minor doctrinal differences I can't imagine letting them in with out a full blown Inquisition in the offering.

Burning those who disagree with you alive is such a religious act though.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Chaplains share a belief in god, while their beliefs about god vary widely. Any chaplain that professes not to believe in god lacks both the ability and the credibility to advise soldiers on matters of religion.

Chaplains do a good job of being a religious advisor to all faiths. That does not require they share the tenants of a specific faith - but it does require they have a faith.

So only monotheists then?

 

[mijopaalmc]

In terms of being able to counsel people who are putting their life on the line while causing terrible stress for their families? Really?

Irrelevant. The relevant factor isn't the belief of the person doing the counseling, it is how they treat the belief of the person in need.

It's interesting that you continue to mischaracterize the issue as one solely of being able to provide psychological counseling, when that is only one of the duties that a chaplain must perform. The other pertain to being able to provide spiritual and religious support to personnel, which, as a person who lacks beliefs in such things, an atheist by definition cannot.

Anything BUT having atheist "chaplains" is discriminating against those who aren't religious.

So you assert.

Of course, I have to ask, were I, say, in the Air Force Academy, and wanted some counseling from a chaplain, could I go to one and get one without being godbothered?

I personally don't know, but the fact that you refer to "being godbothered" is a fairly good illustration of why many people think that atheists shouldn't be chaplain, because atheist are perceived as being hostile toward religion and religious belief, so having explicitly atheist chaplains would be counterproductive.

I posit an atheist could do just as well as a religious person who was not a believer in the other person's religion or lack thereof, if not better in some cases.

And you can stamp your foot and hold your breath when people point out that, by virtue of their non-belief, atheists are unsuitable for performing the religious functions of the chaplain, but that doesn't make your assertion any less of an assertion.

Unless proselytizing their own beliefs should be not only irrelevant, but unknown. And if proselytizing they shouldn't be. They aren't there to convert, but to counsel.

And provide spiritual and religious guidance.

Why do you keep omitting that necessary duty of a chaplain?

After knowing about the ways Catholics treated people with minor doctrinal differences I can't imagine letting them in with out a full blown Inquisition in the offering.

Burning those who disagree with you alive is such a religious act though.

You act like you have no idea what the Second Vatican Council was.

 

[Checkmite]

And the actual counselors will put actual blocks to actually advancing. It's the quick road to transfers, denied advancement, and eventual ejection.

The chaplains don't have to report to the same degree as the trained experts. They have more confidentiality, which is problematic in it's own way.

Wrong. The only time psychological counseling goes on a soldier's "record" is when he or she has been ordered to receive it. Otherwise it's just as confidential as in the civilian world. The idea that chaplains are the only place in the military where one can get confidential counseling is false.

An atheist chaplain would have to minister religious counseling if a soldier requests it. How many atheists are prepared to tell soldiers that they must maintain their faith, or aspire to follow Jesus' word?

 

[Ausmerican]

It's interesting that you continue to mischaracterize the issue as one solely of being able to provide psychological counseling, when that is only one of the duties that a chaplain must perform. The other pertain to being able to provide spiritual and religious support to personnel, which, as a person who lacks beliefs in such things, an atheist by definition cannot...And provide spiritual and religious guidance.

Why do you keep omitting that necessary duty of a chaplain?

That was post #75. It is a lie of course as this was addressed more than 25 posts ago back in post #39.

...As this site shows often, atheists are often just as familiar with the contents of holy books as believers, often more so....As for the trappings of religion, anyone can learn the rituals, there is no magic and an wouldn't be constrained to only being able to do what his own religion allows in that area...[?QUOTE]

As for the atheist chaplain's lack of belief robbing him of credibility and the ability to minister, you still haven't said how a chaplain of another faith who thinks you are going to Hell for eternity for your beliefs would be able to dance that dance better than someone lacking belief. Credibility is only an issue if the atheist chaplain runs around evangelizing his beliefs which NONE of the chaplains should be doing. Otherwise, again, how would one know that this chaplain is a non believer?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Wrong. The only time psychological counseling goes on a soldier's "record" is when he or she has been ordered to receive it. Otherwise it's just as confidential as in the civilian world. The idea that chaplains are the only place in the military where one can get confidential counseling is false.

That's what I suspected, but thanks for clearing it up.

An atheist chaplain would have to minister religious counseling if a soldier requests it. How many atheists are prepared to tell soldiers that they must maintain their faith, or aspire to follow Jesus' word?

The exact same issue already exists since no soldier is guaranteed to have a chaplain that shares his beliefs. If you expect a Jewish chaplain to tell someone to follow Jesus' word, then you could expect an atheist chaplain to do so as well.

Several of us have raised this point in this thread, but I haven't seen any refutation of it.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Yeah, because there's no difference having a belief in the supernatural and completely lacking such a belief.

There is a difference. But there is also a difference between believing Jesus is god and not, yet no one is suggesting we ban anyone who rejects that belief from being a chaplain.

Why the special case for atheists?

So far the only problems that an atheist as chaplain would encounter are problems that already exist since no soldier is guaranteed to have a chaplain that shares his or her beliefs.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Chaplains share a belief in god, while their beliefs about god vary widely. Any chaplain that professes not to believe in god lacks both the ability and the credibility to advise soldiers on matters of religion.

Says who?

Again, I will point you to the Humanist Chaplaincy at Harvard and to my friend who is a Buddhist priest working as a prison chaplain. Even if those two people satisfy all the requirements you listed for a military chaplain, you'd perversely insist that they can't do the job.

Chaplains do a good job of being a religious advisor to all faiths. That does not require they share the tenants of a specific faith - but it does require they have a faith.

But does "have a faith" mean believe in a god? If so, you're only begging the question. If not, you've not answered why you think belief in a god is what's required.

Frankly, I suspect an atheist Buddhist priest would be a lot better at giving advice to a broader range of soldiers (including those from mainstream religions but also Pagans, and other less common ones). They are much more accustomed to operating in a world where few people share basic assumptions in matters of faith with them. I could see Christian chaplains having a bit more trouble seeing beyond their own belief system.

(And in real life, this is often the case. The problems of proselytizing, hostility to non-Christians, giving special treatment to participants in Christian events, etc.--that is, failing to do the job the chaplain is supposed to do-- have been almost exclusively the work of Christian chaplains.)

 

[mijopaalmc]

Is atheism really to religion as baldness is to hair color, not collecting stamps is to a hobby, or dropping out of college is to having a major?

Or is atheism more like shaving your head, sitting around the house, or entering the workforce after high school graduation?

That is:

Does atheism consist of more than just a simple lack of belief?

Does atheism involve beliefs and actions to the contrary of religion?