GOP hate speech continues ban on atheist chaplains in military

[sarge]

Yes.

Why wouldn't it be? Is the only possible spiritual crisis a crisis about belief in a deity?

And back to the point I was making, does a chaplain have to share that belief to do whatever it is chaplains do? If so, isn't there already a big problem since god beliefs vary so dramatically even among theists?

_________

Maybe the fear is that an atheist chaplain would try to talk a theist soldier into rejecting theism. If that's the case, isn't there a similar fear that a Catholic chaplain might try to talk a Jewish soldier into conversion?

Chaplains share a belief in god, while their beliefs about god vary widely. Any chaplain that professes not to believe in god lacks both the ability and the credibility to advise soldiers on matters of religion.

Chaplains do a good job of being a religious advisor to all faiths. That does not require they share the tenants of a specific faith - but it does require they have a faith.

 

[sarge]

After witnessing some of the thing that self-identified atheists about their religious friends and family, I don't think it to far off the mark to question the ability of some atheists to be sensitive others' religious conviction.

After all, isn't "Why should I have to 'respect' religion?" a fairly common rejoinder to reports of religious people claiming that their religious beliefs havd been disrespected?

It is required of chaplains that they accept other faiths. If atheists were commissioned, they would be no more likely to cross that line than would a Rabbi talking to a Catholic. Still, being an atheist robs one of any credibility to advise anyone about their relationship with god.

The answer (to a problem that doesn't exist) is to exclude from service anyone so simple minded as to believe in gods to,start with.

 

[mijopaalmc]

It is required of chaplains that they accept other faiths. If atheists were commissioned, they would be no more likely to cross that line than would a Rabbi talking to a Catholic. Still, being an atheist robs one of any credibility to advise anyone about their relationship with god.

The answer (to a problem that doesn't exist) is to exclude from service anyone so simple minded as to believe in gods to,start with.

My point is that the assertion that atheists in the military need chaplains to avoid violating the Establishment Clause* and the assertion that religion needn't be "respected" seem to oftent come from the same subset of atheists, who then shouldn't be too surprised when that rhetoric gets tied into to suitability of atheists for the military Chaplaincy.

*insofar as the Establishment Clause can be said to have not been violated when the goverment supports all religious beliefs (or lack thereof) equally.

 

[Minoosh]

Why wouldn't it be? Is the only possible spiritual crisis a crisis about belief in a deity?

What would an atheistic spiritual crisis look like?

And back to the point I was making, does a chaplain have to share that belief to do whatever it is chaplains do? If so, isn't there already a big problem since god beliefs vary so dramatically even among theists?

Behaviorally, of course he can behave exactly as a theistic chaplain behaves. However God belief can generate internal issues that an atheist may never have felt. If that doesn't affect the chaplain's behavior (including speech), then it wouldn't matter. Basic crisis intervention strategy (i.e. pastoral care) is mostly listening anyway.

An atheist who has jumped through the Army's qualifying hoops (including ordination) is apt to be a discreet individual interested in helping people cope with fear. But I don't think it would be appropriate to telegraph his own beliefs.

 

[Minoosh]

The answer (to a problem that doesn't exist) is to exclude from service anyone so simple minded as to believe in gods to,start with.

Wow.

I hope that was satirical.

 

[jj]

You are mistaken. The primary role of a military chaplain is to provide a range of religous services. That chaplains do some counseling (actually, they do all the religious counseling and some other counseling) in no way denies the non-religous anything.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong on this issue, and I'm rather quite sure of it.

The term "chaplain" is perhaps a problem, "counselor" would be a better one, but an atheist, fact-based counselor can do as much as anyone else can do for people having various kinds of doubts.

Denying that service to people who do not believe, not giving "time off" to people who do not believe (when it is given to those who do believe), or even worse, giving punitive tasks to those who do not attend chaplain services is a complete violation of the establishment clause.

As is denying atheists a chance at rational counseling that doesn't carry a pejorative aspect.

It is an act of discrimination, plain and simple. The OP exposes someone who is using deliberately inciteful hate speech to continue this discrimination.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

What would an atheistic spiritual crisis look like?

I would assume the same as any others. Existential angst? Loss of sense of purpose? Struggles with guilt? Perhaps difficulties encountered during meditation (thinking again of Buddhists)?

[ETA: I think it might be argued that these spiritual problems of atheists--such as Buddhists--can't possibly be dealt with by theists. From the point of view of the atheist practicing a religion like Buddhism, being told "trust God" would be a total failure to help.]

Behaviorally, of course he can behave exactly as a theistic chaplain behaves. However God belief can generate internal issues that an atheist may never have felt.

So?

Belief in Catholic dogma can generate internal issues that a non-Catholic may never have felt. Does it follow that a non-Catholic chaplain can't fulfill his duties wrt to Catholic soldiers?

ETA: I see you're saying pretty much the same thing I'm saying here.

An atheist who has jumped through the Army's qualifying hoops (including ordination) is apt to be a discreet individual interested in helping people cope with fear. But I don't think it would be appropriate to telegraph his own beliefs.

And if that is a problem, it's already a problem given that no soldier is guaranteed a chaplain that shares his beliefs. In other words, the problem you're pointing to would not be one created by having atheist chaplains.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

It is required of chaplains that they accept other faiths. If atheists were commissioned, they would be no more likely to cross that line than would a Rabbi talking to a Catholic.

You're equivocating here. If an atheist would be required to accept theism (in the sense of abandoning atheism), then doesn't a transubstantiationist have to abandon that belief in favor of consubstantiationism? That's just one example of the problem in your argument here.

You can "accept" other faiths without sharing their beliefs, can't you?

Why is being an atheist dealing with theists different than being a transubstantiationist dealing with non-transubstantiationists? Or better yet, how about being a liberal Christian dealing with a homophobic biblical literalist?

 

[Ausmerican]

A Jewish Chaplain routinely counsels on matters of faith with non-Jewish Soldiers for example, and that is something that an atheist could not do. At least, not with any credibility. No matter how well educated an atheist might be about religion, a belief that there is no god is a disqualified.

But the Jewish Chaplain in your example does not believe in the aspect of god that is core to the Christian, that of Christ.

He would answer the same as an atheist if asked; "Do you believe the only path to salvation is to accept Jesus as your Lord and savior?"
A solid NO.
What if the troubled asked about the Trinity? Or the Holy Spirit? The two members of the trinity besides the God figure are central to the beliefs of Christians, after all denying the existence of the holy spirit is the core of the so called blasphemy challenge. So if the rabbi is in agreement with the atheist on two thirds of the trinity he's okay but the last bit is the deal breaker?

As this site shows often, atheists are often just as familiar with the contents of holy books as believers, often more so. As Bill Maher discovered while making Religulous, there are plenty of clergy that are already atheists, they are where they are to help people and they don't see their own lack of faith as a barrier to that.
Also, atheists don't have a favorite in the race, they can treat the Catholic as identical to the Protestant as neither is on 'their team' so they can be a less biased, more equitable choice.

As for the trappings of religion, anyone can learn the rituals, there is no magic and an wouldn't be constrained to only being able to do what his own religion allows in that area.

As for lacking credibility, how would that be an issue? Are the current chaplains allowed to run around proselytizing all the time for their religion? If an atheist chaplain kept his beliefs to himself, hell if ALL the chaplains kept their own PERSONAL beliefs out of the business of giving support and comfort to others, how would anyone know which chaplain was the atheist?

 

[jj]

Are the current chaplains allowed to run around proselytizing all the time for their religion?

Some of them are nowdays, even encouraged to do so by commanders.

Ask someone who's been there about the air force academy.

 

[mijopaalmc]

If atheism is to religion as bald is to hair color, isn't a chaplain as useful to an atheist as a barder is to a bald person? And isn't an atheist as qualified to counsel religous believers on religious matters as a barber is qualified to groon the head of a bald person.

 

[Ausmerican]

If atheism is to religion as bald is to hair color, isn't a chaplain as useful to an atheist as a barder is to a bald person? And isn't an atheist as qualified to counsel religous believers on religious matters as a barber is qualified to groon the head of a bald person.

Then in what way is a theist of one stripe any more qualified to counsel a theist of another stripe than a non theist? Theist A is quite likely an atheist in regards to Theist B's deity anyway.

 

[Minoosh]

I would assume the same as any others. Existential angst? Loss of sense of purpose? Struggles with guilt? Perhaps difficulties encountered during meditation (thinking again of Buddhists)?

Well, fine then. Chaplains can be atheists and atheists can go to chaplains.

I think a lot of it comes down to "this guy was helpful and that guy wasn't."

[ETA: I think it might be argued that these spiritual problems of atheists--such as Buddhists--can't possibly be dealt with by theists.

Well, call them psychological problems and send them to a psychologist.

From the point of view of the atheist practicing a religion like Buddhism, being told "trust God" would be a total failure to help.

"Trust God" and "Accept the Inevitable" are not super-divergent messages. But I don't know a lot of about Buddhist atheism.

It seems in the absence of god-belief they wouldn't need a specialist who deals with god beliefs.

They'd be fine with being worm food ...

 

[mijopaalmc]

Then in what way is a theist of one stripe any more qualified to counsel a theist of another stripe than a non theist? Theist A is quite likely an atheist in regards to Theist B's deity anyway.

There's a huge difference between believing in the existence of (a) supernatural entit(ies) to the exclusion of the existence of other supernatural entities and lacking a belief any supernatural entities at all. With the proper level of abstraction, one can see the commonalities between different beliefs in the existence of supernatural entities, whereas the is little, if any, commonality among the lack of belief in supernatural entities, the belief in non-existence of supernatural entities, and the belief in the existence of (a) supernatural entit(ies).

 

[Checkmite]

Counseling is available in the services for secular soldiers. And the bonus for atheist troops is that they'll be actual standards-licensed counselors, rather than religious authorities who are presumed to be qualified to counsel others on life issues by dint of their religious training.

There's no need for atheist "chaplains".

 

[tyr_13]

Counseling is available in the services for secular soldiers. And the bonus for atheist troops is that they'll be actual standards-licensed counselors, rather than religious authorities who are presumed to be qualified to counsel others on life issues by dint of their religious training.

There's no need for atheist "chaplains".

And the actual counselors will put actual blocks to actually advancing. It's the quick road to transfers, denied advancement, and eventual ejection.

The chaplains don't have to report to the same degree as the trained experts. They have more confidentiality, which is problematic in it's own way.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

FWIW, Harvard has a Humanist (Humanist/Atheist/Agnostic) Chaplaincy.

http://chaplains.harvard.edu/filter_by/humanist-chaplaincy-humanistagnosticatheist

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Counseling is available in the services for secular soldiers.

Again, however, "secular" and "atheist" aren't synonyms.

Also, isn't counseling also available to religious soldiers? So it's not relevant to the discussion of whether or not atheists should be allowed to be chaplains, right?

And the bonus for atheist troops is that they'll be actual standards-licensed counselors, rather than religious authorities who are presumed to be qualified to counsel others on life issues by dint of their religious training.

Again, those same credentialed counselors (psychologists or whatever) are also available to religious soldiers.

How is banning atheists from being chaplains a bonus to atheists?

There's no need for atheist "chaplains".

Is there a need for any chaplain?

At any rate, that's not exactly the question here. The question is about whether or not to ban atheists from serving as chaplains in the military.

There's no "need" for gay people in the military, but we finally stopped banning them. See the difference?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

There's a huge difference between believing in the existence of (a) supernatural entit(ies) to the exclusion of the existence of other supernatural entities and lacking a belief any supernatural entities at all.

So?

The fact that people who don't share religious beliefs can serve as chaplains makes it clear that sharing religious beliefs isn't a requirement for being a chaplain.

FWIW, according to religious people, there's a huge difference between believing in transubstantiation and consubstantion; between believing that Jesus was a god or a man or both. I could go on and on. Schisms have occurred and wars have been fought over smaller issues of faith.

There might be a bigger difference between a Muslim chaplain serving the needs of a Catholic soldier, for example, than a Catholic chaplain serving the religious needs of a Protestant soldier than. So? Does it mean we ban Muslim chaplains too? Does the fact that there is a bigger difference have any significance at all?

 

[mijopaalmc]

So?

The fact that people who don't share religious beliefs can serve as chaplains makes it clear that sharing religious beliefs isn't a requirement for being a chaplain.

FWIW, according to religious people, there's a huge difference between believing in transubstantiation and consubstantion; between believing that Jesus was a god or a man or both. I could go on and on. Schisms have occurred and wars have been fought over smaller issues of faith.

There might be a bigger difference between a Muslim chaplain serving the needs of a Catholic soldier, for example, than a Catholic chaplain serving the religious needs of a Protestant soldier than. So? Does it mean we ban Muslim chaplains too? Does the fact that there is a bigger difference have any significance at all?

If that's the position you're taking, it makes little sense to liken atheism to baldness and religion to hair color, because the difference between a redhead and a blond is superficial compared to the differences you claim exist between different religions, whereas there is fundamental difference between atheism (or baldness) and religion (or hair color).